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Vonage page on DSLReports
Six Month Rating

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Review by ricklg See Profile

  • Location: Laurel,Anne Arundel,MD
  • Cost: $20 per month (12 month contract)
  • Install: about 6 days
Good "Price, Voice Quality"
Bad "None so far"
Overall "It seems I made a good choice"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

My Other Reviews

August 22, 2014

After 41 years I changed my phone service on August 6. My total monthly cost before making any calls was $31 with Verizon and ECG. I am a light phone user often not making any phone calls during the month.

After some research I decided that Vonage looked like a good choice. They weren't the cheapest, but seemed to be the best value with a good track record. I chose the 400 minutes ($12.99) plan with a 1 year contract. They were upfront that the total monthly charge would be $19.84 with the "crap" added. I ported my 41 year old phone number (a cherished friend) as well. I jumped in with both feet knowing that there were quite a few things that could go wrong with this. After all I'm saving a whole $11/month

I got the email that told me my number would be ported on August 11, the day the hardware was to arrive. I was concerned, but I have a cell phone as backup so this wasn't a big deal. The hardware arrived as scheduled. I plugged the Vonage box in and got dial tone. As dial tone is locally generated in these devices I called myself. Verizon rang. I called the other way. Vonage rang. This only worked for a few hours before Verizon pulled the plug, but I knew it worked They provide installation instructions, but it was rather obvious for the non-technically challenged The phone number ported an hour later. The next day (8/12) I unplugged Verizon from the house network interface so now Vonage provided dial tone to all the phones in the house. A couple of hours later customer support from Vonage called to see if I liked their service and if I had any problems. As the install went flawlessly and this was the first call I had had there wasn't much to say. Vonage seems to care about new customers. I was impressed.

My other concern was billing. How many ways can this go wrong? The August Verizon bill shows dial tone service terminated and a $0.90 bill. ECG shows my account cancelled. Vonage will charge my credit card in September. All of this seems to have gone right too, but I'll wait a month or two before I declare victory.

I may sound like Eeyore, but dealing with Comcast incompetence/not caring for over 15 years has reduced my expectations for new companies. I have cautiously gotten my hopes up that this will go well.

member for 10.4 years, 3078 visits, last login: a few hours ago
updated 10 days ago


Review by jaa See Profile

  • Location: New Canaan,Fairfield,CT
  • Cost: $25 per month (12 month contract)
  • Install: about 5 days
Good "Perfect quality, good value"
Bad "Website reliability a little shakey"
Overall "Excellent value!"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

My Other Reviews

·Optimum Online
Ordered my line, got it in a few days. Plug-and-play - absolutely no problems. Took 4 weeks to get my number from at&t assigned - Vonage did everything after I sent in the paperwork, and sent an email with about 12 hours notice when the cutover was to occur.

The quality is excellent - better than my regular phone line. The value is incredible - 500 minutes anywhere in North America loaded with features (voice mail, callerid, etc) for 25% less than the cost of a stripped down POTS line from at&t!

The phone service has been 100% reliable since we got it. The website has had some issues.

We have a second phone line from at&t that we use for outgoing local calls and fax, as well as dialtone when the power is out. Vonage will forward our calls to the POTS line automatically when our internet is out. We also like POTS for 911 service - even though we setup Vonage for 911, I like having the true e911 through POTS.

One line, 500-minute plan. Total monthly bill: $19.50.

Been over 3 years now - working great!! Love the features (and the price!!).

Update: Over 4 years now, still working great!! Better quality and reliability than our POTS service from at&t.

Update May, 2009: 5 years now. Switched from the $20/mo 500 minute plan to the $300/yr unlimited plan. Now worry about minutes. No issues.

Update October, 2010: Over 6 years; service is still great. I REALLY like receiving my voicemail in my email - WITH a transcription of the message so I can read it instead of listening.

Update December, 2011: Another year of excellent service. $365 per year including all taxes and fees.

Update August, 2012: Still going strong. Thinking about dropping my POTS line now.

Update March, 2013: Finally did it - dropped my POTS line. Just cell and internet phones.

Update August, 2014. Bye-bye Vonage. Free phone from my cable company, and using cell mostly. Great service, but no longer needed.

member for 14.2 years, 6656 visits, last login: a few hours ago
updated 19 days ago


Review by batsona See Profile

  • Location: Ellicott City,Howard,MD
  • Cost: $14 per month
  • Install: about 30 days
Good "Good quality given *stable* internet."
Bad "Mnthly auto-billing to debit card sometimes double-charges"
Overall "Still well worth the money"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

My Other Reviews

·Verizon FiOS
I've got the 500min per month package for $18 a month. I'm routing it thru a Linksys 2-phone, 4-ethernet device, sitting behind a Cisco PIX 501, connected to Verizon FiOS.

Calls were fairly choppy because Comcast was having issues with pole-mounted amplifiers in my neighborhood. When I went to FiOS Internet, whose issues evaporated; very stable voice quality after that.

I've only ever had Vonage, so i can't rate them against anyone else.

Porting my number from Verizon land-line, to Vonage took longer than expected. The number was not ported on the date promised. A call to tech support said, "oh yes, it is ported, we did it last nite". I insisted otherwise. "Ah, it must have not worked then." They then scheduled another port of my number which was another 2 weeks after their first try (first try took 2 weeks, thus to total of 30-day turnaround time in my ratings.) Second port worked, and have been happy ever since.


Update 8/15/2008: Everything still just fine. Vonage introduced a feature where you can block calls from coming in, that have absent callerID info, and I use this. I wish they'd offer call blocking by matching a pattern (like 1-800-xxx-xxxx) for instance. Cost up to $22 from original $18, but it's still a good deal


Update 1/20/2010 Price is up to $20 a month now, but is still a good deal. No huge technical problems.


Update 3/26/2011 - Last summer, negotiated back to "Vonage Lite", from the 500min plan. Monthly dropped from $27 to $14! For as much as I use it, I still never go over the mins, and I'm almost saving 50%. One thing, when I call certain people, I have an annoying echo in the line where I can hear myself. Not sure if its related to the other persons' side, or whether it's Vonage; haven't investigated that much.


Update 2/6/2012 - Still going strong. I'm on the Vonage-Lite plan, and the billable amnt per month is still about ~$20/month. Service works consistantly. That echo thing I complained about before went away on its own. The only problem called them about, turned out to be my own internal wiring. Good call quality. Had a situation recently where the outgoing message was not heard by the person leaving a message (me!). Phonemail system busy I guess. Still well worth it in quality vs. $$ paid.


Update 1/19/14 -- Still worth the money. We don't use the phone alot, for the Vonage-Lite plan is great at ~$20 per month. I can't EVER remember a time when there was an outage at all. The only problem I ever had was ethernet cabling to the Vonage Adaptor, which was my fault. Worth the money. No problem, stable, good quality.


Update 8/2/14 -- still going strong. The monthly charge creeps up 2-4 dollars per year, but I don't mind that. Still good quality.

member for 10.3 years, 1756 visits, last login: 2 days ago
updated 28 days ago




Never buy this

They have appointed agents who are misguiding the customers. I returned it next day of buying. Plz check properly before buying.

Ellicott City, MD

Re: Never buy this

Sorry you had a poor experience. I've had quite a good experience. Care to message me & tell me what happened? How were you mis-leaded?

Review by ilikeme See Profile

  • Location: Sugar Land,Fort Bend,TX
  • Cost: $17 per month
  • Install: about 1 days
Good "Reliable, cost"
Bad "tech support isnt the greatest, but hardly needed"
Overall "Its a great deal, especially if its $9.99 for life"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

I have had Vonage for about 4 years now and it has been great. Got locked on to the $9.99 unlimited for life plan, which comes to about $17 after taxes and fees. I have never had any trouble with it, even when taking it with me to the UK for a month.

member for 12 years, 5820 visits, last login: a few hours ago
lodged 82 days ago

PX Eliezer
Morrow Project fan
·Optimum Voice


It's not 9.99 a month, you are paying almost [double] that it seems to me.

And missing out on basic VoIP features like call blocking....

Vonage has more taxes/fees than most other VoIP providers.

San Diego, CA

Re: But---

Agreed. The reviewer also said it is $17 per month. Put $9.99 in "Overall" is misleading.

Brookline, MA
And since the "for life" price doesn't include below-the-line fees, which can grow without limit, there isn't really any kind of fixed-price guarantee at all.

Review by Furrever Fur See Profile

  • Location: Grand Rapids,Kent,MI
  • Cost: $65 per month
  • Install: about 1 days
Good "Tremendous value, great call quality, knowledgeable phone personnel and fanatastic features!"
Bad "Outsourced tech support during off-hours but they try"
Overall "Still the best. Would recommend Vonage service in a heartbeat !"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

My Other Reviews

We've been more than happy with Vonage service for close to 4 years now. The price listed here ($65) is for TWO lines and a virtual number (and the fees/taxes). VonageWorld ($25.99/mo) with no contact is fantastic.

One of the BEST features is the network availability number, so that if one's internet is down, the VOIP will ring to whatever phone (landline, cell) you enter. Also: no telemarketing, no "sharing" of information as some ISP and other VOIP providers do.

Tech support is great, but ...! Like so many other companies, Vonage is outsourcing and the heavy accents (sorry) can be really hard to understand. However, the agents ARE qualified and don't read from a script. Tech support via email gives actual, helpful responses specific to an inquiry -- non of the "canned" stuff. When we had to get a replacement adapter box, the process was easy. Best of all - no pesky monthly "rental" fees !!

Vonage has only raised their fees once; the other nickle/dime increases are from government mandated fees/taxes which is for any phone line. We tried VOIP from an ISP .. never again. Rates too high, not enough features, etc etc.

Vonage - our our opinion - is the best ever. Now if they'd only add selective call screening ...

UPDATE - 10/12/2013:
Vonage tech support rocks !!! Experienced a wee bit of an irritation in calling overseas which was hearing "dead air" rather than the ringing tone which occurred once before about 12-15 months ago. After completing the Vonage online email form along with the 3 call samples I knew they needed, I received a DETAILED email addressing my issue -- and what Vonage had done to fix the problem (adjustments on their end). Problem solved; and received a telephone call to make sure everything was working properly.

Compare that tech support to script-reading CAEs, or canned emails. I also noticed that even 'tho some of the tech support folks have heavy dialects, they are definitely enunciating more.

VonageWorld has gone up a whole $1/month to $26.99 (no contract): it's still a great deal for the calls we make. Still very, very happy with them.

Still very, very pleased with Vonage VOIP service after 5+ years. It's reliable and - again - has features that are far superior to the competition, especially the so-called "bundled phone services". from certain ISPs.

Only kink is an increase in outsourced tech support during "off hours" (e.g. before 9 am EST). In fairness, they ARE knowledgeable and do go out of their way to enunciate. They are NOT "script-reading" bots -- they actually know their stuff.

Prices have inched up a few pennies due to mandated taxes/fees. Current price for VonageWorld, a second "regular" line and a virtual number + taxes/fees = $68. Happy camper w/Vonage.

member for 2.5 years, 354 visits, last login: a few hours ago
updated 85 days ago


Too busy to chat
Boca Raton, FL
·CIKTEL Telecom

1 edit

Innocence is bliss

There is a reason that Vonage's reviews and ratings put it at the bottom of the 'Good, the Bad, the Ugly' VoIP providers list: »/gbu

Those of us who subscribe to providers like Voip.ms, Anveo, CallCentric, Future-Nine, VOIPo ... and others discussed in the BBR Forums ... are paying much lower monthly/annual fees with many providers charging no taxes or add-on fees ... and offering far more features that even noobies would find useful (such as selective Call Block):
»Re: Vonage

By the way, all of the well-liked VoIP providers have their support centers in the U.S. or Canada.

Nobody is insulting Vonage customers for their loyalty to Vonage. We are aware that Vonage users simply don't appear to exhibit curiosity when better (and certainly less expensive) options are available.

Hey, think of us this way --- at least we don't denigrate Vonage users as we do those who use MagicJack, NetTalk and certain other providers with horrible products & service.

(topic offline) Some other options for you to consider ...

Moderator Action
This entire topic was removed, either temporarily, or permanently.

stated reason was: trollock

Review by benjamin See Profile

  • Location: New York,New York,NY
  • Cost: $13 per month (12 month contract)
  • Install: about 3 days
Good "Best-in-class reliability (no outages yet!), excellent call clarity"
Bad "Advertised plans are pricey"
Overall "If you get a good deal on a plan, this is by far the best VoIP option"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

My Other Reviews

·Verizon FiOS
After many, many years with another provider (since VoIP first became available, in fact), I finally had reason to switch. Many of the companies I would have considered a few years ago were no longer in business or had significantly changed their service options, but Vonage was still there. Their plans were not the most affordable, but they had an excellent reputation for reliability and call quality.

I can confirm that their reputation is well deserved. Having now been on their service for almost two years, I have yet to have a Vonage-caused outage or any "problem phone calls" (where call quality was significantly affected). These were the most important factors in my selection, and Vonage has delivered. My very-high-speed, low latency FiOS broadband connection does help, but with previous providers there were still call quality issues--not with Vonage.

The other main factor I considered was price, and on that point, Vonage seemed to be way behind its competitors. However, they have some unadvertised plans that are very reasonable, depending on your needs. I get unlimited US calling for under $15 including taxes. Could not be happier.

Of course, features are also important. Vonage does not offer all that many and could improve in this area. However, the only really important option that is missing, for me, is selective call blocking (which allows you to specifically block certain numbers--or at least alternatively route them however you want). You can block callers who block their caller ID but that's really the only option. For many years, Vonage has indicated they are considering adding the feature, but it has yet to materialize. Features they do offer free with their plans include simul-ring (ringing your VoIP line and another phone at the same time), selective call forwarding (trying another line if you don't pick up, for example) and "do not disturb." Unfortunately, this last feature must be manually toggled on or off, so you could potentially forget to turn it off. Scheduled do not disturb would be more useful.

Perhaps the most important feature is the "network availability number" setting, which allows you to set a number to which all calls are transferred if your internet connection goes down. So, if you set your cell phone as that number, when your ISP has an outage, all your calls automatically go to your cell phone. That was a feature I had been begging my previous VoIP provider to add for years.

One final word, on the website. It is very good and went through a complete overhaul shortly after I started using Vonage. The features are very easy to manage and the site works really well on all mobile devices.

So, as one of the early adopters of VoIP who has tested numerous service providers, I highly recommend Vonage.

member for 13.7 years, 3296 visits, last login: 7 days ago
updated 158 days ago


Review by fatmanskinny See Profile

  • Location: Wandering
  • Cost: $12 per month
  • Install: about 5 days
Good "$9.99 a month unlimited calls, features I need, saves me $$$"
Bad "Call quality issues at times"
Overall "It meets my needs at a great price!"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

My Other Reviews

·Comcast Digital ..
I switched from Xfinity Voice to Vonage about a year ago. They sent me an offer I couldn't refuse - $9.99 unlimited calling (local / national) with the features I need on a home phone.

I received the self-install kit which was very easy to set up. I logged in and set up my profile and was on in less than 10 minutes. They sent the standard Vonage Box. It gets the job done.

Sometimes, I run into an issue where the box does not automatically reconnect to the network if there is a power outage. I have to power cycle it. It looks like the ethernet connection is not recognized (or lit up). The call quality is generally fine. Occasionally, callers hear my home alarm picking up as a fax on the line when they call. I am lowering the bandwidth usage to see if that may help.

Overall, I am happy with the switch. It works and when it doesn't, calls are automatically routed to my cell.

member for 10.6 years, 2652 visits, last login: 160 days ago
lodged 196 days ago


Review by mahermusic See Profile

  • Location: U.S.A.
  • Cost: $15 per month
Good "Low $$$, Crystal Clear Sound Quality, Much better service than Verizon"
Bad "None"
Overall "Get it.... save the moolah!"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings above consensus)

We just had our 11-Year anniversary with Vonage on March 7, 2014. Service is reliable, and sound quality is crystal-clear. No problems ever in those 11 years.

Also got nine Vonage referrals within that time, some of those going on or past their 9-year anniversary.

I'm so happy I ditched POTS all those years ago.... I've saved SO MUCH $$$ from AT&T and Verizon over that time.... makes me smile just thinking about it!

Attaboy, Vonage!!!

member for 13.1 years, 3722 visits, last login: 1 days ago
updated 205 days ago




-1 recommendation


march 7 2013???? you sure about that



Re: reply

Yup, of course!

Review by Jackarino See Profile

  • Location: Allendale,Bergen,NJ
  • Cost: $25 per month
Good "Good quality and price"
Bad "Porting the number"
Overall "A good alternative"
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)

Good quality phone service. Never really had huge issues with it. The only problem I had was porting my number over from Cablevision.

Update 8/7/2012

Switching back to Vonage....more updates to come

Update 8/28/2012

Phone worked fine for a few days, now I cannot receive incoming calls but I can make outgoing calls. Vonage is currently working on the issue.

member for 7.6 years, 1971 visits, last login: a few hours ago
updated 245 days ago


Review by Chris 313 See Profile

  • Location: Houma,Terrebonne,LA
  • Cost: $36 per month
  • Install: about 3 days
Good "Ridiculously quick/easy set up, Cheaper then Cable VOIP, 7 Digit Dialing and more!"
Bad "Had a slight issue with payment during set up, hinky ports on the VDV23-VD ATA"
Overall "If you're looking to ditch expensive cable voice, give Vonage a try."
Ease of Installation:
Call Quality:
Tech Support:
Value for money:
(ratings match consensus)


Well, here I am trying my hand at the VOIP ring again. Back in 2004, I got tired of AT&T after some major install woes and expense. The fact that we had just paid for install of jacks and all aside, my family started looking for an alternative for every day phone use.

Considering my new cable connection, I looked into Vonage, they didn't have the area code I wanted at the time. So that way out, otherwise I'd have Vonage now for almost a decade instead of just getting started. I found my actual VOIP service in AT&T CallVantage, the very company I was itching to leave: »/comment/46873

After a false start and some bad equipment, I got started and was with them from mid 2004 to June 2008 when I switched to Comcast Digital Voice service: »/comment/69517

I've had that service from 2008 to now, but recently the rising price and temporary deals have got me down. So I went looking at Vonage again after almost a decade. They seem to have everything I want.

I got my questions answered and went for it. Signed up without much problem until I got to the payment side of things. It wouldn't take my card. After a bit, I got to the final page and payment issues persisted, they told me to call them and give them a ref number. I did. Talked to a CSR named Mary after a moment on hold. She spoke english and I could understand her. She had a bit of an accent, though. Eh, I got everything she said . She took my card again and it went through after a few minutes and things got set up. My service is active with a temporary number, but since I don't have the box yet, I can't use the service.

She told me that I'll be receiving the hardware either this Friday or next monday. That's fast service if I do say so, especially with no activation, no shipping and free equipment.

It was also mentioned when I signed up that I'll be getting a 30 dollar Best Buy giftcard. I'll be using that to buy my new modem and cut the price down from 100 down to about 50 with the price matching and all. So yay!

When I get the Vonage box in, I'll also check the status of my number port as I requested to have my number transferred from Comcast to Vonage when I signed up.
If it doesn't work out though, I'll see about getting a number from Vonage themselves. I also looked into it when I was mock signing up, just in case. I found one pretty easy to memorize and it sticks in the head, so we'll see. I'm hoping I get my current number and everything goes ok.

More to come later, after I get service actually installed.

Update: 6/7/13

Well, on 6/6 I was told that my number transfer would happen on the 7th, the same day as I would get my Vonage Box in. It worked flawlessly. Number works perfectly too. Set up was mostly a snap. Had to reset my equipment to get everything to play nice, but after that, everything's cooking. Got 7 Digit dialing, so that's a plus. VOIP services have gone a long way since my 4 year encounter with AT&T CallVantage from 2004-2008.

The only 3 things that I've noticed that mar a perfect review across the board is the ATA box they sent for the service. They use a VDV23-VD unit according to the paperwork and the one I got seems to have a bad router port. The Cat 5 cable just slides right in, not even bothering to lock in like the modem port right next to it, so anyone can just come up and yank the cable right out with very little effort. Still, I can work around this and won't be bothered by this too much. If I am, I'll call up Vonage and have them send me a new box and see if that's it or if they're all like that?

And the second thing, the way it's currently hooked up to work is limiting my system to 100 Full Duplex vs 1000 without the Vonage box in the mix. Gonna get some answers to see what I can do to fix this. For an 80 dollar device, I think I expected more, but I'm not too bothered by this either. For every problem there is a solution.

The third thing is potentially dropped calls to some numbers. I called my girl, who was expecting the call beforehand and I tried 2 times and each time it rang, ending with a message about a VM inbox that hadn't been set up yet. When she finally picked up, she talked for 2 seconds and the call dropped. I think this was on her end since she said her signal was bouncing in and out. So we'll try again later and see. Every other call I made went through flawlessly and it may be just me, but I could swear everything's louder and clearer then it was with Comcast voice service.

Overall, I'm very satisfied with the service and look forward to putting Vonage through it's paces and saving 30 bucks a month at least on my bill.

More to come as I test this out and fix the issues I mentioned.

Update: 6/8/13

Well, I've got feelers out about the 30 dollar Best Buy and the hinky Vonage Box. I did manage to solve the hook up problem I was having. I was doing this: »www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl···7rxkKpt0

when I should've been doing this: »www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl···C09IwmMs

Seems I also didn't give everything enough time to shake hands. (Another product of my being tired at the time.)

Vonage has really made setting up their service dirt simple and much improved from my last VOIP experience.

Had a power outage in the afternoon today that killed everything, my UPS gave me enough time to shut everything off before power completely ran out, but I noticed I lost connection to my EMTA that my former Comcast Digital Voice service used to provide me their phone service. The battery didn't keep the connection up this time. It won't matter much longer as I'll be buying my own modem and using my existing UPS as my batteries for things like the Vonage Box, modem and router.

When the connection came back on, I noticed that the telephone related lights, including the battery one were off. Guess they really do only supply power from the battery to power only the phone service. Regardless, Vonage seems to have kept their word that after porting my number from Comcast Digital Voice to Vonage, they would have my Comcast voice service disconnected for me. I'm glad to see them keeping their word.

I love the service so far.

Update: 6/9/13

With the help of a fellow Vonage user and DSLR member, Netfixer I've solved my issue with the jacks on the back of the VDV23-VD that Vonage sent me to use with their service

"About the Ethernet cable not seating:

I seem to recall that with the VDV23 boxes (I no longer use that particular ATA for other reasons) the Ethernet ports require that you push hard (and also jostle the connector a bit) to override a threshold. Once that is done, the cable is very firmly seated (in fact removing it also requires a bit of jostling because it is very tight)."

That was exactly the issue and now I've solved it, I won't be unplugging that thing for anything. It's sad, since it should be just put it in, it clicks, done. And it's not.

Now all that I believe remains is to find out where is my 30 dollar Best Buy gift card? Once I find this out, I'll really be a happy camper...

Update: 8/7/13

Got my 30 dollar Best Buy gift card in the mail from Vonage today. Gonna use it to buy my own modem for my Comcast service. So far, I now have absolutely no complaints about the Vonage service. They did everything they've said they would.

Update: 9/5/13

Well, today, I noticed my 3 month Vonage intro at 17.44 a month has expired and I'm now paying full price at 35.01. Still, it's cheaper then Comcast's solution at 60 or more a month and with the gift card bought modem, I'm saving a total of 31.99 a month over my previous set up. I think I'll look into trying to get that 9.99 a month for life plan I've seen around. But if I don't, 35 bucks is not bad over what I had before.

member for 10.1 years, 5947 visits, last login: a few hours ago
updated 359 days ago


Furrever Fur
united state

Vonage is terrific

In the nearly 4 years I've had Vonage, there has been only ONE rate increase ($1/month); the rest have been taxes and fees that are mandated by the government.

As far as dropped calls, you can tinker with the settings in your adapter such as the QOS. Depending on your internet use (e.g. multi-users), sometimes the QOS settings interfere with the Comcast upload speeds and voice quality. Vonage customer service is top notch; even email replies are to the point and not the canned junk !!