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join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | Facts...don't you just love 'em I know i do...thats why i switched to FIOS. | |
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baineschile
2600
Premium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em Why doesnt verizon just offer a 1gig service and blow everyone out of the water? | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
1 edit | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by baineschile  :Why doesnt verizon just offer a 1gig service and blow everyone out of the water? Probably because Fios has 2.4 gbps shared amongst 32 users. To start offering 1 gbps speeds to a single customer means that they would then have to admit that they couldn't GUARANTEE that speed to the customer all the time. They would then, from a marketing perspective, put themselves in the same shared bandwidth boat as cable.
But at 50 mbps x 32 users, they can say they haven't oversold the pipe and can deliver their marketed GUARANTEED speeds because 32 users totalling 1.6 gbps would be under the size of their 2.4 gbps pipe.
First, our downstream pipe is about 15 times the size of cable’s: 2.4 Gigabits per second for FiOS;
That FiOS capacity is shared by no more than 32 customers --
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
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| | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
1 edit | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by TKJunkMail :they couldn't GUARANTEE that speed to the customer all the time. They would then, from a marketing perspective, put themselves in the same shared bandwidth boat as cable. Like the CAPS... They can't GUARANTEE that now either. Just because I have a wide driveway doesn't mean I will get to work any faster in rush hour.
You are only as fast as the fullest shared link in the path end to end. Broadband aggregation points, peering points and last mile on content will always be a limiting factor no matter what the last mile technology is. | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em Its more fun to tease other companies, and bring them up to a reachable standard (w/o much effort - where its deployed) - then either implement a price cut, or throw in a few extras.
Its a bit like a poker game... VZW is attempting to call out a bluff.
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aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Some of us are still on BPON which is around 655mbs down with up to 32 users.
But so far my 50mbs service hasn't seen any slowdowns. I still hit 50mbs any time of the day, any day of the week.
said by TKJunkMail :said by baineschile :Why doesnt verizon just offer a 1gig service and blow everyone out of the water? Probably because Fios has 2.4 gbps shared amongst 32 users. To start offering 1 gbps speeds to a single customer means that they would then have to admit that they couldn't GUARANTEE that speed to the customer all the time. They would then, from a marketing perspective, put themselves in the same shared bandwidth boat as cable. But at 50 mbps x 32 users, they can say they haven't oversold the pipe and can deliver their marketed GUARANTEED speeds because 32 users totalling 1.6 gbps would be under the size of their 2.4 gbps pipe. First, our downstream pipe is about 15 times the size of cable’s: 2.4 Gigabits per second for FiOS;
That FiOS capacity is shared by no more than 32 customers | |
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mikkal
@shawcable.net
 from:
TKJunkMail
| don't forget the 2.4gbps connection between 32 homes is for all the FiOS services /Internet/Phone/TV
hypothetical situation:
32 users with the total FiOS service and 4 HD boxes in their homes:
if all 4 TV's in all 32 homes on at same time tuned to an HD station that's 1.9gbps that definitely not enough bandwidth left for gig speeds on the internet
Don't get me wrong as the FiOS service evolves it has the capacity to over take Cable and xDSL in the speed department.
but right now DOCSIS is easier and cheaper to deploy allowing consumers to benefit from the cost reduction. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by mikkal :
don't forget the 2.4gbps connection between 32 homes is for all the FiOS services /Internet/Phone/TV
hypothetical situation:
32 users with the total FiOS service and 4 HD boxes in their homes:
if all 4 TV's in all 32 homes on at same time tuned to an HD station that's 1.9gbps that definitely not enough bandwidth left for gig speeds on the internet
Don't get me wrong as the FiOS service evolves it has the capacity to over take Cable and xDSL in the speed department.
but right now DOCSIS is easier and cheaper to deploy allowing consumers to benefit from the cost reduction.
This is incorrect as FiOS uses 3 separate wavelengths; one dedicated to upload, another for download, and a separate wavelength for television.
Now FiOS does use IPTV for the Video on Demand service, but the regular TV has nothing to do with the GPON's 2.4 Gbit/s down or 1.2 Gbit/s up bandwidth. | |
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aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | The 2.4gbs from GPON is only for the Internet download speeds.
said by mikkal :
don't forget the 2.4gbps connection between 32 homes is for all the FiOS services /Internet/Phone/TV
hypothetical situation:
32 users with the total FiOS service and 4 HD boxes in their homes:
if all 4 TV's in all 32 homes on at same time tuned to an HD station that's 1.9gbps that definitely not enough bandwidth left for gig speeds on the internet
Don't get me wrong as the FiOS service evolves it has the capacity to over take Cable and xDSL in the speed department.
but right now DOCSIS is easier and cheaper to deploy allowing consumers to benefit from the cost reduction.
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mikkal
@shawcable.net
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em i stand corrected thanks guys I live in Canada so not so familiar with FiOS
DOCSIS 3.0 can do gig speeds with channel bonding similar to the wavelengths so since they are very different technologies no a real fair apples-to-apples comparison but of course the real winner is the consumer when there is choice ! | |
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| | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
 ·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Agreed. But from a marketing perspective Joe Average doesn't know or care about what bandwidth is shared or not. All they see is "I'm getting 50mbps!!!111".
Given that Verizon does not and will not have capacity problems with Fios for the forseeable future, it really does them no good to offer the same speed tiers as cable. They should at the very least one-up them for the marketing benefit.
Keep in mind that maxing out a 2.4gbps link with only 32 users is insane. In a few years, maybe. Today- not even close. To oversimplify things, you could transfer about 25x 700MB movies PER MINUTE on a 2.4gbps link. You'd fill out a 300GB harddisk in about 15 minutes. In other words there really are no realistic usage patterns that could max this kind of link at this point in time. Even if they went with a 1gbps to the home type thing they would have zero capacity problems because it is impossible for a user to reach 1gbps throughput during normal activities or even heavy filesharing. (the download would complete long before that speed is reached) | |
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| | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by wifi4milez :At that rate, their pricing would be as follows: 50Mbps/20Mbps = $160 125Mbps/50Mbps = $400 312.5Mbps/125Mbps = $1000 780Mbps/312.5Mbps = $2500 These speeds assume people want to drive them to those levels, right? Call up Level3, Verizon, AT&T, etc and ask them what a 780Mbps or 1G connection will run you just for the bandwidth (ignoring the local loop) | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by devnuller :said by wifi4milez :At that rate, their pricing would be as follows: 50Mbps/20Mbps = $160 125Mbps/50Mbps = $400 312.5Mbps/125Mbps = $1000 780Mbps/312.5Mbps = $2500 These speeds assume people want to drive them to those levels, right? Call up Level3, Verizon, AT&T, etc and ask them what a 780Mbps or 1G connection will run you just for the bandwidth (ignoring the local loop) I am very aware of the going rate for a 1Gbps connection, however there are a few things to keep in mind. First, although minimally so, FiOS is an oversubscribed network. Secondly the bandwidth being offered is not symmetrical. Thirdly (and perhaps most important for business use), is the fact that there are no SLA's associated with the product as its a consumer grade connection.
The bigger issue at hand (as you mention) is that there is absolutely no market for 1Gbps home internet connections. Sure it sounds "cool", but you cant access (hardly) any site on the internet today at that speed. The only way anyone would buy a 1Gbps connection would be if it was less than $100 per month, as people are looking to cut costs more than ever. I know you hear people on this site ramble on about how consumers are demanding GigE at home, but thats just a bunch of hooey!
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Комитет государственной безопасности
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| | | | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by wifi4milez : First, although minimally so, FiOS is an oversubscribed network. All Internet services are oversubscribed and the degree of oversubscriptions varies at different points along the path. The current last mile of FiOS may have lower density, but do you know how many FiOS nodes share an OC12 or OC48 when the all come together? That is the thing they don't want to talk about.
said by wifi4milez :Secondly the bandwidth being offered is not symmetrical. Point taken... price a 312Mb connection then.
said by wifi4milez :Thirdly (and perhaps most important for business use), is the fact that there are no SLA's associated with the product as its a consumer grade connection. Perhaps, but those that work with SLA's know that for the most part they are BS, are rarely collected on. It is about the same as calling and getting a day or two off your bill for residential service. Most residential service (operated well) has similar performance of commercial.
The reality is residential is typically less expensive to run given only a few expect to run wide flat out for long periods of time. It is the average users that subsidize the network costs of the REALLY heavy users.
At the speeds you are asking for above, odds are these would be really heavy users and the cost to support that are more commercial level costs. | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by devnuller :All Internet services are oversubscribed and the degree of oversubscriptions varies at different points along the path. The current last mile of FiOS may have lower density, but do you know how many FiOS nodes share an OC12 or OC48 when the all come together? That is the thing they don't want to talk about. Commercial internet services (T1 and above) are not oversubscribed, or at least they are not supposed to be. I cant say that some unscrupulous carriers arent doing that, but it would be the exception to the rule. If they were, the provider wouldnt include language in the SLA about "network availability". The lack of oversubscription is why T1's still cost a few hundred dollars per month, not including the local loop.
said by devnuller :Point taken... price a 312Mb connection then. There is no question a dedicated (non oversubscribed) 312Mbps internet connection will be pricey. A decent retail price from a reputable provider is around $6k per month for that bandwidth. There are carriers such as Cogent that offer it for less, but I am giving an overall price that can be found on the open market from a number of different providers.
said by devnuller :Perhaps, but those that work with SLA's know that for the most part they are BS, are rarely collected on. It is about the same as calling and getting a day or two off your bill for residential service. Most residential service (operated well) has similar performance of commercial. I strongly disagree. Part of the reason people insist on SLA's (especially larger companies) is that they have recourse if there is a problem. I would agree that a T1 customer wont see much in terms of a credit, even if the circuit is down for days. However, large companies that spend hundreds of thousands of dollars per month on telecom go through the SLA with a fine toothed comb. I have personally had to issue credits of just under $10k due to a customers internet being out for just a few hours. Again, this was a customer paying close to $30k for a GigE however it just goes to show you that SLA's are a legal document and have weight.
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Комитет государственной безопасности
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| | | | | | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
1 edit | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by wifi4milez :Commercial internet services (T1 and above) are not oversubscribed, or at least they are not supposed to be. Incorrect. T1 services to the internet ARE oversubscribed. Many are aggregated on a router with an N:1 over subscription policy on the uplink. From there that uplink to a core is oversubscribed again and then to an oversubscribed backbone to an oversubscribed peering point and then the process is reversed down to the other side of the connection.
Connections have been that way since the beginning of the Internet. There is NO such thing as "dedicated" Internet capacity.
Now as far as SLA's, believe what you will, but I have written a number of them and used many. They are used more as "outs" for contract protection. If you ever have to exercise an SLA more than a few times, you are looking for another provider. Same goes on most residential services. Ask for credit (which they will give) or cancel. | |
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| | | | | | | | | jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em Good Lord, someone who actually gets it.
The fundamental basis of the internet means that everything is oversubscribed -- it's what allows each node to connect to other nodes without each node having to have a dedicated direct connection to each other node. | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice
| said by devnuller :said by wifi4milez :Commercial internet services (T1 and above) are not oversubscribed, or at least they are not supposed to be. Incorrect. T1 services to the internet ARE oversubscribed. Many are aggregated on a router with an N:1 over subscription policy on the uplink. From there that uplink to a core is oversubscribed again and then to an oversubscribed backbone to an oversubscribed peering point and then the process is reversed down to the other side of the connection. Connections have been that way since the beginning of the Internet. There is NO such thing as "dedicated" Internet capacity. I disagree. All tier 1 (and some tier 2) dedicated circuits are just that; dedicated. Well, they are dedicated on the carriers network at least, once they reach a peering point that can change. A tier one provider does not oversubscribe any dedicated links, in the example you used above T1's would be muxed into T3's (usually at the LSO or POP), which would then be carried on an optical level across the carriers backbone. Some smaller carriers do oversubscribe their services (even traditional TDM offerings), so its always prudent to do a little digging.
Ethernet services are a little different. Given the switched nature of the offering, a number of customers will utilize the same ring. A major carrier still wont oversubscribe their Ethernet internet offering by more than 4 times in most cases though. Things get a little tricky once you talk about Ethernet over Sonet. EoS is basically a dedicated TDM link that hands Ethernet off to the end user. In those cases (again, if you are with a major carrier) you will be getting the dedicated bandwidth you pay for.
However as I mentioned above (and as you eluded to), once you reach a peering point all bets are off. Depending on where your traffic is headed there is a good chance that some portion of the journey will be oversubscribed.
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Комитет государственной безопасности
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| | | | | | | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
1 edit | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by wifi4milez :I disagree. okey doke - NRN | |
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| | | | | | | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by espaeth :At the carrier level, capacity is augmented ahead of demand because the building blocks are cheap and the number of infrastructure links are limited. In broadband, capacity is also augmented ahead of demand. CMTS and other circuits are monitored and trended. Budget is allocated, nodes are upgraded, CMTS ports are added and capacity is increased regularly to keep ahead of expected trend and demand.
The "just upgrade your network" mantra, is exactly what happens every day.
You are correct that at times there are forklift upgrades, but that happens in any network. Light another fiber (amps, OADMS, etc) for a forklift optical upgrade, change your core from OC48 router X to 10G router X++, to 40G router Y etc.
It is hard to tell the difference these days between broadband providers and carriers. Are Verizon and AT&T carriers or broadband providers? Is Comcast a carrier?... Wait, Comcast can't be a carrier right? Then why do they have the first and largest 40G backbone? Are you a carrier if you have a lot of Internet IP space? Are you a carrier or just a broadband provider if you are selling 10G transit to content providers, enterprise transit, etc The lines are blurring. | |
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join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
2 edits | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em [removed] | |
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| | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | Its first you don't go to the ILECs they'll always want more. You go to another provider. 2nd. you don't call L3, you call Cogent and get it. Dirt Cheap and all the bandwidth you may need. | |
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| | | | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em OK... Call Cogent and ask what a 1G connection will cost you... Post back when you find out. I'll wait. | |
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| | | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em To a co here I can get it as cheap as $600 a month. No local loop cost , but my company buys a lot of circuits from all different providers , so I get it dirt cheap.
The fiber run is $2600 a mile though. a little over 26 k to get it run. Plus equipment 
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | | | | | | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by BosstonesOwn :To a co here I can get it as cheap as $600 a month. No local loop cost That sounds like short distance point to point or Metro GE, not an Internet transit GE. | |
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join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs: | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em Full link with net. it pays to be friends with the peers | |
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| | | | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | 1000Mb (GigE) $900 CO down the street. That also includes the loop. | |
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| | | | | WC813
join:2000-12-20
Wesley Chapel, FL | $3,358 for 500mb
$4,216 for 1Gb
Just got the quote yesterday. | |
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cypherstream
Looking forward to the future of things.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs: | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em Holy shit, they wanted $4100 for 10mb metro-e in my area. Needless to say were going bonded T1's instead. | |
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| | | ashworth
join:2001-10-06
Pittsburgh, PA
1 edit | GPON is now being being deployed by VZ instead of BPON and will be capable of sick speeds.....100Mbps up to Gbps. It would have to be DOCSIS 8.0 or whatever to compete with GPON. I believe the G in GPON stands for Gigabit. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| For me, Verizon 50/20 is $94.95. It could be as low as $89.95, but I pay month to month and don't have phone service with Verizon under the same account.
Normally the price for FiOS 50/20 is $139.95, or whatever Comcast is selling their 50/10 service in those areas where both FiOS and Comcast DOCSIS 3.0 overlap. | |
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See 10 replies to this post |
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| | PapaMidnight
join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD
| Some more facts:
With Comcast, it's likely you'll never hit your full 22 or 50 mbps down, likewise, it's likely you'll never hit your full 5mbps up or 10 up.
Reason? Remember, your throttled if you hit more than 70% 50% (As real world test have shown).
There is no definition of peak times or congestion so your pretty much throttled 24/7.
By the way, it's likely that the average person will not go for month to month service and will take the 1 year contract. Acknowledging that, the prices break down as follows without Verizon telephone service: 20/5 is $59.99, 20/20 is $69.99, and 50/20 is $144.95. Knock off $5 on each if you have telephone service from Verizon + FiOS.
Additionally, I'd rather go for guaranteed 24/7 20/20 or 20/5 than gimped 22/5 which is more realistically going to be (maybe) 16/2 or 16/3. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by PapaMidnight :Additionally, I'd rather go for guaranteed 24/7 20/20 or 20/5 than gimped 22/5 which is more realistically going to be (maybe) 16/2 or 16/3. I believe that Comcast with PowerBoost is far more practical in more situations for the average user. For more common data transfers, the benefits of PowerBoost really do shine, and even the Comcast 12/2 package is competitive with Verizon's 20/5 service for many people. | |
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aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em But when I had Comcast the speeds woudl slow to a crwal every evening. it was terrible. Although maybe it's better now since half the condos have switched to FIOS.
said by jmn1207 :said by PapaMidnight :Additionally, I'd rather go for guaranteed 24/7 20/20 or 20/5 than gimped 22/5 which is more realistically going to be (maybe) 16/2 or 16/3. I believe that Comcast with PowerBoost is far more practical in more situations for the average user. For more common data transfers, the benefits of PowerBoost really do shine, and even the Comcast 12/2 package is competitive with Verizon's 20/5 service for many people. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em My speeds with Comcast were fairly reliable. But my street was one of the last to have FiOS available, so I'm sure the congestion was much lower because FiOS was in the immediate area for so long.
Also, our area was one of the early test sites for the 16/1 and 16/2 speeds. So we must have had a decent infrastructure in place or Comcast would not have tested in our area. | |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| said by PapaMidnight :Some more facts: With Comcast, it's likely you'll never hit your full 22 or 50 mbps down, likewise, it's likely you'll never hit your full 5mbps up or 10 up. Fact: I had the 50mbps service from June - October. I had no problem reaching 50mbps on a regular basis if I used multiple TCP flows.
I have the 22/5 service now, I have no problem regularly hitting the top end of the speed.
said by PapaMidnight :Reason? Remember, your throttled if you hit more than 70% 50% (As real world test have shown). There is no definition of peak times or congestion so your pretty much throttled 24/7. No. If the DOCSIS channel is congested AND you are using more than 70% of your subscribed rate your traffic will be given a lower priority than other traffic on the channel. There is no strict throttle. If there is no congestion on the line, you could hit 100% of your link 24x7 without any impact whatsoever.
I suggest you re-read the the details of the traffic prioritization system again; this was all very clearly explained.
said by PapaMidnight :Additionally, I'd rather go for guaranteed 24/7 20/20 or 20/5 than gimped 22/5 which is more realistically going to be (maybe) 16/2 or 16/3. Again, as someone who actually has the 22/5 service I know as a fact it isn't 16/3 as you suggest. I do an off-site backup every single night and hit 5mbps out for 20-25 minutes. Over the last few evenings I've also topped out at 22mbps for a couple hours at a shot grabbing ISOs for a VMWare test environment I'm setting up at home. | |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | so for a few dollars less i can get a service that may or may not work based on the comments posted in the forums and oh and my favorite..
I get free usage caps with Comcast! | |
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| | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Where is 22/5
I pay the extra cash for the highest teir and see maybe 16/1 if im lucky.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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dropshadow
join:2000-12-17
Plano, TX
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
| said by TKJunkMail :Comparison: Verizon 20/5 $65/mo 50/20 $160/mo learn to read. 20/5 is $55. and 20/20 is $65. i don't think anyone can argue with the value of 20/20 for $65. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA | Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em You are looking at the one year agreement table. He specifically mentioned the month to month service with phone included. I see the same numbers that he posted, the link just defaults to the one year service commitment. | |
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| | hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
| Verizon doesn't say you avhe ot have phone service..it's 50/month if you forgo phone service according the the very site you quote.
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God Blesshttp://www.emmanuelcomputerconsulting.com-- carpe ductum -- "Grab the tape" | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em said by hescominsoon :said by TKJunkMail :said by danclan : Some pricing facts: Verizon month to month (make sure and look at the column where you need Verizon phone service: » www22.verizon.com/Residential/Fi···lans.htmComparison: Verizon 20/5 $65/mo 50/20 $160/mo Verizon doesn't say you avhe ot have phone service.. it's 50/month if you forgo phone service according the the very site you quote. Verizon prices WITHOUT phone service:
Verizon prices month to month and no phone service:
20/5 $70/mo
50/20 $165/mo
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
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| fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| said by danclan :I know i do...thats why i switched to FIOS. While they may be "facts" they still remain a pipe dream and they aren't delivering any of this.. so, at this time, Verizon's FiOS is no better than DOCSIS 3.0 ... and here's why.. it's really simple.. ready?
.. They have all that bandwidth and they are 'capable of' delivering all these fast speeds, yet, they ALREADY have the ability to delivery 100 down but put a price tag on it that NO consumer will pay the price for.
Technically, in my opinion, Verizon IS throttling their service. If their systems are capable of gig rated speeds, then their 50 meg tier is, in my opinion, a throttled/capped service.. in other words, they need to put their money where their mouth is and light that network up. For right now, they are no better than cable and being smug.
For YEARS Verizon has lagged behind the industry leaders. They've been slow to offer any upgrades, they've even raped one state for a but load of tax money and never delivered.. they now stand to take advantage of free money from the government and will most likely strip any consumer protection from the terms... and all while they have deployed some fiber in some cities and celebrating their crippled, on purpose, advance fiber network and treating it like it's dial up compared to it's abilities.
For this, I say that Verizon is NOT on the cutting or leading edge of anything. They're actually way behind, lagging in their own realm, and should just shut the hell up and keep deploying their fiber and not worry about cable. | |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
4 edits | Won't stop the coax kissasses from touting cable greatness Facts have never slowed the cable fanboys any. Cable can easily do 100Mb* via DOCSIS 3.0
*Your speed experience may vary as we traffic shape every service you actually like into the ground | |
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sudogreg
join:2002-01-12
Washington, MO | my area maybe someday verizon will roll out to my neck of the woods... im ready to dive it a shot. | |
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Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ | Its what you can get that matters Until I can actually get FiOS, DOCSIS3 will be what I use.
So Verizon, instead of just taking pot shots at cable, put your money where your mouth is and deploy FiOS to more areas. NJ gave you a statewide franchise, so don't hold back. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Hooray Competition! "To fix this problem, cablecos face big capital costs to deploy more fiber to put nodes closer to customers. FiOS Internet doesn't have that problem."
FiOS has nearly the same problem. In fact, it's precisely the cost of deployment that makes FiOS even remotely considered to be a dangerous investment.
The distinct advantage for FiOS is not only limited to more robust upload speeds, but also in their infrastructure's ability to mostly shrug-off local congestion issues, which is apparently common to cable, as evidence of throttling and capping would suggest.
Pricing and speeds will be closely matched, especially in areas where both services are available to customers. Upload speeds, caps, throttling, and general stability, reliability, and performance will all be factors on which service people will choose.
And then there is the TV side of things to consider...
I suspected that FiOS was a better product than my Comcast service for TV and internet before FiOS was available to me. Now that I have recently made the switch, I can say with certainty that my assumptions were correct. For me, FiOS is much better, and it would take something shockingly significant to make me switch back. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA | Re: Hooray Competition! I think FiOS is making money simply because along with the fiber comes the ability to offer TV services for the first time. It's the TV service that is the real money maker, not the data service. | |
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| | soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
| said by cameronsfx :FIOS has a better product but are they making money from FIOS? Probably losing a lot. If they are to make money, they need to add FIOS subs equal to all the DSL and landlines they are using. Landlines make a ridiculous amount of cash that's why Cable VOIP is kicking all the Telcos rearends on price. Also, Verizon is still maintaining 2 plants, the copper and Fiber plants. And, in the economy, that's another problem. Add the fact that Verizon labor is probably twice as expensive as Cable's. Wow, there's nothing like making up things and passing assumptions off as fact. This is the problem in America. Instead of actually researching, people are all to happy to pass off what they THINK as fact. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Hooray Competition! To be fair, Verizon has made a significant profit the last few quarters, and their FiOS subscriber numbers have increased considerably. However, the reports that I have access to are not particularly detailed, and they seem to include financial results from their wireless business. So it's possible that revenues from the wireless business are subsidizing the FiOS business, at least in some areas. | |
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33591094
join:2002-11-19
Canada
| Ha Don't worry, Verizon. You might not be the fastest game in town, but at least you haven't sold out to the **AA's yet...
Customers will come flocking - count on it. 
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deblin
Dark Side of the Moon
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
Middletown, DE
| Re: Ha said by 33591094 :Don't worry, Verizon. You might not be the fastest game in town, but at least you haven't sold out to the **AA's yet... Customers will come flocking - count on it. The more technically inclined were already flocking to them, since it's a superior product.
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He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. -Socrates | |
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Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ | Re: Ha How many average users even have the hardware to use 2.4GBps? | |
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| NbWY1
join:2003-05-23
Columbia, MD
·Verizon FIOS
·Vonage
| said by 33591094 :Don't worry, Verizon. You might not be the fastest game in town, but at least you haven't sold out to the **AA's yet... Customers will come flocking - count on it. Been thinking this for a while now. | |
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bnceo
join:2007-10-11
West Orange, NJ | Up To? I love how Cable can only legally say up to, even with the new DOCSIS, but Verizon just tell you a speed and that's what you get. Love the no caps though. At this point, I would chip in to get FIOS at the new apt complex my gf is moving to. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| Re: Up To? said by bnceo :I love how Cable can only legally say up to, even with the new DOCSIS, but Verizon just tell you a speed and that's what you get. Maybe since FIOS actually delivers the promised speed since the number of customers on a node times the promised speed is less than the total available speed of the node (1.6Gbs [50Mbs times 32 max customers on the node] vs 2.x [2.8?] Gbs capability). Cable can not deliver the claimed "up to" speeds to all the customers on the node at the same time (there are way too many customers per node [something like 10-15 times the number that the node can support at max speeds). | |
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bcronin
Premium
join:2004-03-27
Hyde Park, NY | FIOS is irrelevant If you can't get it. Cable FTW (for now). | |
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Rothan Tik
Premium
join:2000-11-07
Danvers, MA
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
2 edits | The fact remains... That Verizon can compete on a higher level since they are closer to the backbone than Comcast is. Don't they also own a good portion of the fiber that runs all over this country anyway?
Infrastructure is already in place, how can cable truly compete with that?
I hope Verizon continues their stand on P2P and staying away from traffic shaping. It's not heading in the right direction for anyone... | |
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weaver0
join:2004-05-05
Macungie, PA | My favorite... I love the FIOS vs. Cable threads... it's like watching 5-years olds debate whether Cinderella is prettier than Snow White.
'round n 'round we go... wheeeeee | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | Re: My favorite... Everybody KNOWS that the Little Mermaid is prettier than both Snow White or Cinderella...together!
It's TRUE!
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: My favorite... said by John Galt :Everybody KNOWS that the Little Mermaid is prettier than both Snow White or Cinderella...together! I've always been kinda partial to Jessica Rabbit. | |
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majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
| huh verizon stated this "To fix this problem, cablecos face big capital costs to deploy more fiber to put nodes closer to customers. FiOS Internet doesn't have that problem"
Um isnt verizon still deploying fios? So dont they have that problem too but in there case stringing fiber in places that didnt have it as far as cable does? | |
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kleinml
join:2008-04-18
Levittown, PA | Re: huh Its a Problem but already accounted for in their capital expenditures. Cable would have to re budget for this kind of upgrade and take the hit on the stocks that verizon took when they began the upgrade. Not a good time to take a stock hit. | |
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| | majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
| Re: huh Yes but i would think cablecompanies would have already budgeted for these kind of things or have been smart about it.
Example: cablevision doing wifi upgrades and docsis 3 upgrades in one shot.
Verizons response basically would make more people upset considering fios isnt available in all areas so they should be talking about who spends what to upgrade . | |
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vbtruth
@scnet.net
| FiOS throttling It is not true that FiOS is net neutral. They are blocking both outbound SMTP, MS Remote Desktop, and tagging (DSCP marking) P2P applications. The tagging DOES NOT necessarily mean that they ARE treating the traffic different, but they could be. It does RAISE the question of WHY thy might be tagging DCSP if they were not using it.
Of note, their access aggregation platform (at least one of the ones they are using, is fully DPI capable). | |
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Chainzz
Aka Snippy
join:2004-07-26
Amherstburg, ON
| It's not the Medium, its the topology Coax or Fiber...lets see can offer just about the same services. However its the cableCo's Topology that gives them the backburner when it comes to cable vs fios. Most cable co's will eventually have a node on every corner and just run coax from there...Also to for a cable co to upgrade to fiber wouldnt be as much overhead as verizon, so right now its more practical to go Docsis 3 and see wherre the competition goes from there. Remember it was the cable companies for the longest time with the better service, the will once again take that crown when needed, just watch.
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Truth has one destination, But many paths! | |
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MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast
| Anyone really care? Does the average customer really give a rat's ass about HOW it happens? If it works, then it really doesn't matter how the bandwidth is shared. If I pay for 50/20 from either company and I download or send a nice size file in seconds every time, I don't care if my node feeds 499 more people or 2 other people.
Incidentally, if a cable company offers D3 services, the nodes on those systems aren't servicing 500 people without being split.
Most customers care about one thing other than price, and that one thing is reliability. I don't care if the wire coming to my house is made of glass or copper, if it works as advertised I am a happy camper as the consumer.
Verizon obviously feels threatened by this technology. If they really thought it was laughable, they wouldn't make a big public deal out of and try to make it out as inferior. Over time, the services will speak for themselves.
The fact is, is that Verizon is worried that the money they have been spending to offer services that the cable companies can offer by spending a fraction of what Verizon spends may not pay off as quickly as they thought. They are realizing that offering video services at an affordable price is not as easy as they figured and that in itself goes a long way when attracting long term multi-service customers. Now, they are realizing that simply saying, "It's fiber optic! Oooh! AAhhh!" is not going to cut it by itself.
Why not do a little name-calling? Maybe some people will buy it. It's the same concept that certain cable or satellite companies have employed against each other for years. "The dish is ugly and goes out in the rain!" "Oh yeah, well our dish is all digital and offers more for less!" "Oh yeah, well we can offer phone and internet with our video services and make it affordable for everybody!" and blah blah blah. | |
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ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN | Verizon=win Verizon is a instant win in my book, no caps and 20/20 speed tiers..what else more could you want? Plus they are not going the way of the RIAA.
I'm truly sadden that my town isn't served by Verizon, but the joke that is At&t. | |
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Huh
@comcast.net | No The choice comes down to AVAILABILITY. I only have Comcast to choose from. | |
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Waja3
join:2002-11-11
Salt Lake City, UT | Fios in Utah People that have the choice of Comcast or Verizon are in a great position. In Salt Lake City Comcast doesn't have any competition for internet speed. Boy do I ever wish Verizon was here. | |
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Utter
join:2009-01-10 | The last sentence is the most relevant part of the whole article. | |
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Scree
In the pipe 5 by 5
join:2001-04-24
Mount Laurel, NJ | uhuh "Of course to the average consumer, the choice between DOCSIS 3.0 and FiOS will ultimately come down to price."
AND IF IT IS EVER AVAILABLE IN THE CONSUMER'S AREA!!! (dammit) | |
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| bobsrus
join:2008-03-10
| Re: uhuh said by Scree :AND IF IT IS EVER AVAILABLE IN THE CONSUMER'S AREA!!! (dammit) Amen. If Verizon ever feels like.. you know.. actually deploying FIOS in something even remotely resembling wide-area coverage then I might start to give two fickles what their opinion of DOCSIS is.
Until then they can just stfu. DOCSIS is here. FIOS isn't. | |
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| | Bob61571
join:2008-08-08
Washington, IL
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·DIRECTV
| Re: uhuh bobsrus, Scree,
Agree, Verizon's problem w/DOCSIS is areas where Verizon DSL 3 Mbps copper tries to compete with it. Not Verizon FiOS areas!
3Mbps is fastest offered here. Not even 7.1. Let alone FiOS! Closest offering is 240 miles away! | |
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xdeadhead
220, 221, Whatever It Takes.
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Mechanicsburg, PA | loving fios my 20/20 service is maxed out pretty much 24/7....i freakin love it. | |
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Re: Facts...don't you just love 'em
