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Comments on news posted 2009-04-21 10:19:23: As you may have noticed, carriers would like you to believe that metered billing is absolutely necessary because flat-rate billing is "not viable" in the face of heavy use (aka piracy, videos) -- even as hardware and bandwidth prices fall and revenue.. ..
| |
 
iansltx_
@spcsdns.net
| Costs Bandwidth at the data center is a bit cheaper than even 18k per month for a gig. Try 5 or 6 bucks per megabit.
Also, big ISPs don't do this due to the high cost differential but you can, for an extra cost per Mbit, get a 95th percentile connection that's closer to pay per use. Of course 95th means that usage at off-peak times costs nothing extra.
At this point, Comcast peers off on most of their bandwidth. They're a Tier 2 carrier in the US now. Which begs the question, why any caps?
The answer is easy: limited last mile infrastructure. Upgrades are VERY expensive at the last mile compared to lobbying and FUD. So guess what happens?
That's why FiOS and fiber in general is so great: the system has much more capacity to start with and plant upgrades only have to take place at the connection endpoints. No node splits!
ATT on the other hand seems to just want to cash in on the whole capping thing. From a network standpoint they have a fine amount of capacity...a gigabit for internet per VRAD. So I don't know what their deal is. Video revenues maybe?
To reiterate, it doesn't take more manpower to push 10 Gbit than 1 Gbit. It might take more last mile equipment though, and that costs money. Not good for the bottom line... | |
| | 
Sofa King
Premium
join:2009-03-01
Littleton, MA
2 edits | Re: Costs said by iansltx_ :
The answer is easy: limited last mile infrastructure. Upgrades are VERY expensive at the last mile compared to lobbying and FUD. So guess what happens?
That's why FiOS and fiber in general is so great: the system has much more capacity to start with and plant upgrades only have to take place at the connection endpoints. No node splits!
ATT on the other hand seems to just want to cash in on the whole capping thing. From a network standpoint they have a fine amount of capacity...a gigabit for internet per VRAD. So I don't know what their deal is. Video revenues maybe?
Perhaps, but Datacenters typically don't have all the network costs of most ISPs. Metro infrastructure, fiber, large network environment. Sometimes national facilities based infrastructure in carrier neutral areas.
As far as FiOS vs HFC.... This is a leap frog environment. While you may say that cable has an expensive last mile, I would challenge you that the FiOS last mile is far more expensive for similar similar service offerings today
While I agree fiber has more future capacity capabilities (assuming there is demand) and has a longer life, I think it is unclear of the last mile cost difference between going from twisted copper to FTTH vs. HFC to FTTH
Yestereday
Cable: Fiber ----> Coax
DSL: Twisted Copper
Today
Cable: Fiber ----> Coax
FiOS: Fiber ----> Fiber
Future
Cable: Fiber ----> Fiber
FiOS: Fiber ----> Fiber
said by iansltx_ :
To reiterate, it doesn't take more manpower to push 10 Gbit than 1 Gbit. It might take more last mile equipment though, and that costs money. Not good for the bottom line... The only manpower is to deploy all the gear to 10X a large network. It also takes end to end $$ around routers, fiber, transport, maintenance, etc to 10x a large network. Not just last mile. | |
|
Sofa King
Premium
join:2009-03-01
Littleton, MA
| $/Mb translation If this is stating that a broadband ISP is spending about $12,000 to $25,000 / Gbs, this translates to $12-$25 /Mb.
If an 8Mb user fills their pipe for more than 5% of the month, they will cost an ISP $96 to $200 based on this data.
The reason this is not the charge, is that the majority of the users do not max out their pipe and are subsidizing the costsumers. | |
| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: $/Mb translation NO. The ISPs all concentrate their bandwidth(going to transit points) to prevent the exact scenario you are describing. Since the smallest connections they even bother with now (again going to trans) are 10GigE, the peak Mbps of that line is determining the costs. If you believe their numbers of 1% there is no way that (1%) of users are downloading enough Mbps by themselves to raise the aggregate number. In other words, the peak Mbps(costs) is being defined by 99% downloading small quantities all at the same time (usually sometime between 4pm and 11pm) and not by the 1% (usually downloading during non peak hours) downloading large quantities. | |
| elijah6
Premium
join:2002-02-14
Lake Wales, FL | greedy bastards As soon as verizon goes metered billing, I will cancel my service. | |
|
thats not it
| it's not metered billing That's the wrong term to use -- this is intended to be punitive.
They can call it "overage" or "excessive use" or whatever, and charge a penalty, which is what this is, but what these ISPs need to realize is that if they go on calling this metered billing like it's just another utility, and then charge punitive prices for it, Congress is going to act and shut their nonsense down. Which means bad PR.
They could set a "cap", and kick people off, like Comcast, they could set a "cap" and charge excess usage fees, both of which would be bad PR, and certainly challenge the tiering of it, but their mistake is to call it metered billing.
This isn't metered billing, period. It's punitive in nature, so they'd better admit that, or else Congress is going to act on it.
What's so hard to understand about things like this? | |
| | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
| Re: it's not metered billing said by thats not it :
This isn't metered billing, period. It's punitive in nature, so they'd better admit that, or else Congress is going to act on it.
What's so hard to understand about things like this?
An alternative, and potentially less confrontational explination, is this is a way to differentiate a very, very, very small user base which consumes more bandwidth than almost everyone else. The user that cost more than they pay each month (the extra being spread around to you and I)
It is not a "punishment", it is "business class" threshold put in place so you and I don't have to pay the costs of "Billy the terabyte downloader", or "Mickey the porn distributer" as they are certaintly not operating under residential service.
I am a very "heavy" user, but I don't even come close to any 250G cap. That said, I don't want my monthly bill to go toward the 1% 1TB downloader that believes they are entitled to unlimited download. I would rather it go toward supporting faster speeds and a steady growing cap that matches with 99% of the user base. | |
| | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: it's not metered billing devnuller
Here is the hole in your theory. ISPs do not pay by the GB, they pay by peak Mbps/month. Hardware costs are also entirely defined by peak Mbps. So ANY GBs (no matter how many) downloaded during non peak hours costs the ISP absolutely nothing (0) extra. So Billy downloading from 11pm to 8pm costs you and the ISP nothing. | |
| chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| so some logical data for you all lost the tv ep airs say at 9PM EST
who cares when really but for this experiment we shall say this.
NOW what happens is ripper goes and makes a version and a hour later POOF is out there.
Does all these lost people just NOT get that? NOPE ALL at once millions get it it everywhere and these so called idiot network people suddenly say BUT caps work metered billing works. NO, just makes me pick the most popular and as i said get picky and get it quick thing.
SO prime time becomes a download fest EVERY night and while you get less at other times MOST people are doing it at same times.....
All comes back to the weekend of bell Canada's throttled network excuses....4PM to 2AM right
ok weekend that time zone don't apply as everyone wakes up and goes crazy on all the stuff they want all day cause why? Cause they ain't at work they are not out of the house or somewhere else. PROOF they didn't need to impede ( aka block ) my speeds during said time.
NOTE to the dictionary people at the CRTC what does and is the unction of a "blocker on Canadian football?
IF he can't stop you his job is to impede your speed around him JUST LIKE BELL CANADA DOES. | |
| | devnuller
join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH | Re: so some logical data for you all I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you made the argument for or against caps. | |
| | |
NSA_CIA
@charter.com
| Re: if they put a meter said by Anonymous_  :it has to be 1. 100% Guaranted to get 15/2 anytime of the day & uptime 2.Heavy regulation by the goverment 3. have one of these(see att) Sure and it'll cost 10x or more what it does now.
P.S. Do you always spout stupid thoughts or were you dropped as a baby? | |
| | | 
Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs: | Re: if they put a meter you know it's a joke right
the "att1"
you should go register also!
(i bet your all ready registerd but a pussy to show your self) | |
| SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY
| Hansell is obviously not in touch with reality. 500 homes with only 38 Mbps? Obviously, Mr. Hansell does not understand the realities of the business. If half of them are watching 6 Mbps streams at prime time, it takes 1.5 Gbps just to cover the streaming -- forget about other traffic such as Web browsing, piracy (oops, I mean "P2P"), and other activities. And since ISPs must buy enough bandwidth to satisfy peak demand (not average demand), each user who decides to engage in high bandwidth activities drives the peak up and costs the ISP money all month.
It's very frustrating watching dilletantes who have degrees in journalism rather than engineering pretend to understand the business when they have no clue. | |
| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Hansell is obviously not in touch with reality. SuperWisp
Whether the speed is continuous or not is not relevant to what the ISP is going to be charged. Any time the bandwidth peaks during the 95th percentile polling (generally every 5 minutes all month long) it counts as a peak. If 200 of your customers are downloading a web page at the same time you will see a peak(assuming it is during a polling instant). If there is load between polling instances (streaming) or nothing going on between polling instances it does not matter. After the 95th percentile peak has been reached( first day, last day, or any other day of the month) all loads below that peak Mbps do not cost anything extra. | |
|
AnonHardData
@verizon.net
| Ok, you want hard data... All numbers are in bytes...
Standard Deviation in upload: 1,769,643,782
Standard Deviation in download: 833,680,451
Standard Deviation of total: 2,239,948,567
Observe how huge the standard deviation is relative to
the average user.
Average User: 1,189,761,469
Total bandwidth used during the test was 1,496,719,928,277
There are 1258 users on this network. 921 of those users are average or below average. 336 of those users are average or above average.
This means that 336 users have used the same amount of bandwidth as 921 users.
96 users are more than one sigma above average. This means that while the 921 average users used about 1.2 gigs of bandwidth during the test period or about 1105 gigs of bandwidth. There were also 96 users who used a total of 326 gigs of bandwidth.
Another way to say this is 7.5 percent of the users used 22 percent of the actual bandwidth. If every user used as much bandwidth as those 7.5 percent, the total usage would have been 300 percent greater than it was.
If bandwidth were gasoline, I'd want someone else to pay for my ticket at the gas pump also ... and that is exactly why this argument is getting the press it gets here at dslr, and not anywhere else. | |
| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | Re: Ok, you want hard data... Now, how does that data split up during peak hours? That is the only time that really matters. Both the transit costs and the hardware cost are solely determined by peak Mbps. Anything outside those times cost absolutely nothing(0) extra. | |
| | |
AnonHardData
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by Lazlow :Now, how does that data split up during peak hours? That is the only time that really matters. Both the transit costs and the hardware cost are solely determined by peak Mbps. Anything outside those times cost absolutely nothing(0) extra. You got it wrong in one ...
I pay the same thing for each bit I send or receive whether it is at 12 AM or 12 PM. Every bit costs me the same.
There is always one.
Notice how when you got the the gas pump, you pay a price and it is the SAME price for everyone. It is some number of cents or dollars PER GALLON. That is because it costs the driller, the refiner, the wholesaler, the retailer, and the tax man, the SAME PRICE PER GALLON...
I don't usually like analogies on these forums because they are so rarely appropriate, but when it comes to commodity A and commodity B, it is really easy to make the analogy.
... AND BE CORRECT ... | |
| | | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
2 edits | Re: Ok, you want hard data... ISPs buy by the 95th percentile method(just google it).
Here, I saved you the time:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burstable_billing
"As a result, 95th percentile is commonly used among all major internet transit and peering networks, as well as datacenters and ISPs for both capacity planning and/or calculating usage." | |
| | | | |
AnonHardData
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by Lazlow :ISPs buy by the 95th percentile method(just google it). Here, I saved you the time: » en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burstable_billing"As a result, 95th percentile is commonly used among all major internet transit and peering networks, as well as datacenters and ISPs for both capacity planning and/or calculating usage." Gee, you can google, but do you really understand what you are talking about? Are you an ISP? Have you sold bandwidth or only consumed it?
Read what I wrote, just read it. There is nothing complicated about what I wrote. Is is simple. It is as simple as filling your gas tank. It REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE.
If you don't understand it, it is because you choose not to understand it and it has absolutely nothing to do with the foolishness you are using to support some argument that somehow it is not fair to charge people per byte.
There is nothing complicated here Lazlow, if you want a Chicken McNugget you have to pay McDonalds some number of cents PER Chicken McNugget, AND YOU DO, DON'T YOU? So does Jack, Fred, Ted, and Bonnie. Now if Ted wants five hundred Chicken McNuggets because he is a fat fsck and weighs 500 pounds, well no problem, he just pays five hundred times as much as the guy that only wanted one Chicken McNugget.
Now I know this is going to be difficult for you Lazlow, but try to make the leap. Bytes are like Chicken McNuggets, if you want one you pay for one, if you want 5,000,000,000 you pay for five billion.
Get it? It is not rocket science. | |
| | | | | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... To name a few: Comcast, Charter, TWC, Cablevision, all pay there transit costs by the 95th percentile method. I suspect ALL the major ISPs pay for their transit this way. Even the ones that only bill internally (becuase they are tier one players) probably bill this way. | |
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AnonHardData
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by Lazlow :To name a few: Comcast, Charter, TWC, Cablevision, all pay there transit costs by the 95th percentile method. I suspect ALL the major ISPs pay for their transit this way. Even the ones that only bill internally (becuase they are tier one players) probably bill this way. You assert... Document don't assert. Then if you manage that, explain why they pay their carriers CIR rates and they bill each other on the 95th percentile...
... and then explain why that matters in this context ...
It still costs someone exactly the same amount to send this bit as it does to send that bit, and therefore if you use more bits than Jane, you should be the one billed for those bits... should you not? | |
| | | | | | | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... »gigaom.com/2008/10/07/wholesale-···falling/
"What I’m talking about is wholesale Internet bandwidth that is sold to Internet services providers (ISPs) and content companies like Yahoo and Google. This is called IP Transit and it is sold at a rate of “per megabit per second per month” and often requires a monthly bandwidth commitment."
I have already linked to the information that the 95th percentile method is used in Mbps/month billing.
The CIR rate:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committed_···ion_Rate
is basically a floor(a minimum monthly bandwidth commitment) to the 95th percentile method. In other words they will pay by the peak, but if the peek does not exceed the CIR they will pay the CIR. Assuming the CIR is 20Mbps(just a number); if the 95th percentile is less than CIR(say 18Mbps), they still pay for 20Mbps. If the 95th percentile is above CIR (say 80Mbps) they pay for that rate.
It matters because no matter what they are paying by peak Mbps ( or the floor, CIR) and not by the GB. So any transfers done during non peak hours cost nothing extra. | |
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AnonHardData
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by Lazlow :» gigaom.com/2008/10/07/wholesale-···falling/"What I’m talking about is wholesale Internet bandwidth that is sold to Internet services providers (ISPs) and content companies like Yahoo and Google. This is called IP Transit and it is sold at a rate of “per megabit per second per month” and often requires a monthly bandwidth commitment." Ok, let's try this again. I *actually am an ISP*, when was the last time YOU bought bandwidth from someone?
We buy bandwidth and it is CIR bandwidth. We know what we need during peak periods and we have to have that because customers get upset when things slow down. They *REALLY* don't care if you try to tell them that things will be slow between 9:30Am and 10:00 Am and again between 15:30 Pm and 16:00 Pm because you bought 95 percentile bandwidth... They REALLY don't. They say things like, "I don't give a damn that you don't have enough bandwidth right now, I just want to do this business transaction." So you see, maybe, since you are NOT an ISP you REALLY do not GROK the reselling of bandwidth. Maybe you only think you do?
Yahoo, and Google... yeah, when was the last time someone BOUGHT bandwidth from Yahoo and Google? You simply do not get it. Yahoo and Google are bandwidth CONSUMERS, they are not bandwidth PROVIDERS. You and Yahoo and Google are all in the same boat. You BUY bandwidth, you do not SELL it. If you did, you would understand that ISPs, who SELL bandwidth, buy it by a CIR (committed information rate).
Alas, you don't understand that. There is no simple, or easy way to say that these forums give equal credence to those who merely think they understand, and those who actually are experts in the field.
Oh, well. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
3 edits | Re: Ok, you want hard data... Funny, a guy who is an ISP has a Versizon address in stead of using his own service.
You may also want to tell other people here who actually run ISPs, like Superwisp(»www.lariat.net/), that they do not buy their bandwidth by the Mbps. If you really are an ISP post a link to your service or a link to anything that backs up what you have said.
Edit: other edit removed due to mistaken identity to another anon poster. | |
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DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by Lazlow :Funny, a guy who is an ISP has a Versizon address in stead of using his own service. OWNED ! | |
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AnonDog
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by DataRiker :said by Lazlow :Funny, a guy who is an ISP has a Versizon address in stead of using his own service. OWNED ! You might say that, yea, OWNED is right. I have a Verizon Business account that I use at home. You see networks need to be maintained.
I maintain this one:
»www.kaballero.com
from home. | |
| | | | | | | | | |
AnonDog
@verizon.net
| said by Lazlow :Funny, a guy who is an ISP has a Versizon address in stead of using his own service. You may also want to tell other people here who actually run ISPs, like Superwisp(» www.lariat.net/), that they do not buy their bandwidth by the Mbps. If you really are an ISP post a link to your service or a link to anything that backs up what you have said. Edit: other edit removed due to mistaken identity to another anon poster. What? Did you read what I wrote? ISP's buy bandwidth and get a CIR. In my case we pay for a fractional DS-3 that delivers a CIR of 30 M/Bit/Sec.
That pipe is capable of delivering 972,000,000,000 bytes of data in a 30 day month. That is why we pay $4700.00 per month for a 30 M pipe *BECAUSE IT REALLY IS A 30M PIPE*. There is a CIR (committed information rate) on that pipe. We are guaranteed to get 30M any time we want it.
Bandwidth is a finite resource. People who want to consume that resource in larger quantities should have to pay for the portion they consume. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
1 edit | Re: Ok, you want hard data... AnonDog
Until you provide a link to back up any of the information you have provided it is impossible to tell if you are just a troll making up information or actually who you say you are. If nothing else (since you are an ISP) provide a link to your services web page.
Edit: missed the link to your service. | |
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AnonBrad
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... I have been informed from the front office that someone here wants me to telephone them to confirm that I am a network engineer at the ISP I linked elsewhere.
The knowledge that I have been informed that you (5596) want to talk to me is sufficient proof that I am the maintainer of said network.
I don't believe there is any need for a telephone call. Have a good day. If you really want to have a private conversation my email address is micers at kaballero.com.
Sincerely
Michael Erskine
Kaballero.Com | |
| | | | | | kpatz
MY HEAD A SPLODE
Premium
join:2003-06-13
Manchester, NH
| said by AnonHardData :
Now I know this is going to be difficult for you Lazlow, but try to make the leap. Bytes are like Chicken McNuggets, if you want one you pay for one, if you want 5,000,000,000 you pay for five billion.
Except that the way the ISPs are wanting to do it, you pay $3.95 for ten McNuggets, then another $1 for each McNugget after that. So, 10 McNuggets costs $3.95, but 20 cost $13.95.
You pay more if you want more, but the pricing is completely lopsided. Overages shouldn't cost more than the base price per unit (e.g. .40 per McNugget, suddenly becoming $1 per McNugget if you want more than 10). | |
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AnonDog
@verizon.net
| Re: Ok, you want hard data... said by kpatz :said by AnonHardData :
Now I know this is going to be difficult for you Lazlow, but try to make the leap. Bytes are like Chicken McNuggets, if you want one you pay for one, if you want 5,000,000,000 you pay for five billion.
Except that the way the ISPs are wanting to do it, you pay $3.95 for ten McNuggets, then another $1 for each McNugget after that. So, 10 McNuggets costs $3.95, but 20 cost $13.95. You pay more if you want more, but the pricing is completely lopsided. Overages shouldn't cost more than the base price per unit (e.g. .40 per McNugget, suddenly becoming $1 per McNugget if you want more than 10). Agreed in principal and in fact. I don't like that kind of billing either. I'm a flat taxer, and I'm for flat rate billing by the bit consumed. | |
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AnonHardData
@verizon.net
| said by Lazlow :ISPs buy by the 95th percentile method(just google it). Here, I saved you the time: » en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burstable_billing"As a result, 95th percentile is commonly used among all major internet transit and peering networks, as well as datacenters and ISPs for both capacity planning and/or calculating usage." Oh, yeah, I fixed your Wikipedia quote. It now correctly reads, " This method of billing is commonly used in peering arrangements between corporate networks, it is not often used by ISP's because Internet Service Providers need CIRs (Committed Information Rates) for planning purposes." | |
|
AnonWhy
@verizon.net
| Why should you not be billed for what you use? Why should you not be billed for what you use?
Explain that to me. Tell me in 100 words or less why you should not pay as much per byte as the next person who uses LESS bytes than you use? Tell me why, how, you can justify the fact that I should charge you .0001 cents per byte but charge my mom (76 years old) .01 cents per byte? (Numbers used are relative, and not exact.)
Why should ANYONE be REQUIRED to pay for YOUR bandwidth? Why | |
| |
DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
Metairie, LA
clubs:
| Re: Why should you not be billed for what you use? Because ISP's do not pay per GB? Because several other countries are able to do it? Because bits do not disappear after they have been used.
(This is especially true for those ISP's with large national networks who have private peering arrangements not privy to anyone else) | |
| | |
AnonDog
@verizon.net
| Re: Why should you not be billed for what you use? said by DataRiker :Because ISP's do not pay per GB? Because several other countries are able to do it? Because bits do not disappear after they have been used. (This is especially true for those ISP's with large national networks who have private peering arrangements not privy to anyone else) Now, you are wrong about bits disappearing after they are used. Once a bit is transmitted across a network it is gone. It might take another form on a disk but it is gone and if I want to send another bit, I have to pay to send that other bit. Bits even disappear when they are *not* used. If I have a CIR on my connection to the Internet, I *have* to pay for bits that I don't use. See my other posts. I'm the Anon guy with the Verizon IP address.
I agree with your reasoning regarding pricing. People should not be billed a premium above whatever the first byte costs. People should be billed by the bit and a business bit should cost the same as a residential bit.
Like I said, bandwidth is a resource. People who consume more of a resource than other people should have to pay for the portion of the resource that they use. | |
| chronoss2009
join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Bell SHOOTS left foot while CUTTING OFF OTHER How about »anonymousbellgays.com
fact is there is no proof it helps and all the profit they have now they have not done anything with it at bell but buy DPI boxes to spy on users and slow them down more then they find way around it and en mass people are migrating off bell and OH NO QUICK RAISE RATES AND CAP EVERYONE.
also epic fail. | |
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