TKJunkMail
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1 edit |  OECD still using a flawed counting method
»www.oecd.org/document/29/0,3343,···,00.html
4a. Broadband subscribers per 100 inhabitants in OECD countries
- Source: Data compiled from original and/or official Sources by Secretariat
- Current status: 2003 Provisional Data available from the Communications Outlook.
- Definition: The number of Internet subscribers is the number of active registered Internet accounts including all fixed network Broadband access technologies: Digital Subscriber Line services, Cable Modem services, Satellite broadband Internet, Fibre-to-the-home Internet access, Ethernet LANs, Fixed wireless subscribers. This excludes 3G subscribers The "Subscribers per 100 inhabitants" metric has a statistical flaw. It does NOT take into account the size of the average household in each of the countries. Some of the countries at the top are there because they have smaller average number of people at a subscriber address. And some at the bottom have fewer subscribers, but because of larger average household size have more people with broadband access.
A better measure would be number of people with broadband access and not subscribers with broadband access(which measures broadband lines and not people).
In other words, countries with large household sizes are undercounted and countries with small household sizes are overcounted.
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baineschile
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| I would say that plain geography counts too. Most countries in europe and SE Asia, where penetration is the highest, are a fraction of the geographical size of the USA.
If I ran a country the size of New Jersey, obviously its much easier to wire that square mileage with fiber, as opposed to the whole USA. |
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me1212
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| said by baineschile  :I would say that plain geography counts too. Most countries in europe and SE Asia, where penetration is the highest, are a fraction of the geographical size of the USA. If I ran a country the size of New Jersey, obviously its much easier to wire that square mileage with fiber, as opposed to the whole USA. True, it is easier to wire a small country as opposed to a big one. |
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TKJunkMail
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2 edits | reply to baineschile
Re: OECD still using a flawed counting method
said by baineschile :I would say that plain geography counts too. Most countries in europe and SE Asia, where penetration is the highest, are a fraction of the geographical size of the USA. If I ran a country the size of New Jersey, obviously its much easier to wire that square mileage with fiber, as opposed to the whole USA. They have a few charts that show the correlation of density and broadband penetration.
»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/21/60/39574903.xls
»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/21/62/39574923.xls
»www.oecd.org/dataoecd/22/0/39574933.xls
The 3rd chart probably gives the fairest correlation of density vs penetration.
Those below the line are doing worse than average with Mexico being especially bad.
And those above the line are doing better than average with the Netherlands doing especially well.
Iceland for example is very high in the rankings. But they should be as the country with the densest population. More than 50% of the population live on 1.4% of the land.
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tubbynet
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| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :The "Subscribers per 100 inhabitants" metric has a statistical flaw. It does NOT take into account the size of the average household in each of the countries. Some of the countries at the top are there because they have smaller average number of people at a subscriber address. And some at the bottom have fewer subscribers, but because of larger average household size have more people with broadband access. glancing over the top 20 or so countries, i would say that the majority of them (excluding canada, us, korea, japan, australia, new zealand) are all european contries, most of them considered "developed" to boot.
a quick google search leads me to the following stats
»www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_a···useholds
the data itself is a little old (2001), but i wouldn't imagine household size to change too much. in this comparison, it looks like the average of households average right in the 2.7 people niche. i *really* don't think that the statistical evidence is *that* far off. sure, there are larger households and there are smaller households. you're not going to get a *perfect* count, thats why we use stats.
of course, as someone who benefits from the us maintaining its status quo, i would expect you to dispute factual evidence as flawed as long as the major players keep their stock prices up.
q.
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TKJunkMail
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| said by tubbynet :of course, as someone who benefits from the us maintaining its status quo, i would expect you to dispute factual evidence as flawed as long as the major players keep their stock prices up. Every time the accusation of industry shill is trotted out, this will be the reply:
"This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.
Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented."
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tubbynet
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| said by TKJunkMail :It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. but your "logical" reasoning is based solely on nothing but gut reaction. nowhere in the top 20 countries is there an argument for 10 children huddled around a flickering crt screen looking at youtube on a high speed connection. even post-cold war europe is advancing and while the economic downturn has hurt them severely, countries like lithuania, poland, and the czech republic are no longer the war-torn third world countries of the reagan-era that so many people in this country want us to go back to. unlike your normal posts, you did not provide any evidence to back up *why* you see the stats as flawed, you simply put it out there. my post, with evidence, refutes what i assume to be your "gut feeling". as such, i feel that you are simply promoting the status quo.
again, i present the material above. the household size is not that far off between countries. would it shift maybe a country up or down? possibly, but nothing major. the point is still made.
if you want to argue that the difference is due to the vast differences in land mass, go right ahead. the fact of the matter is you have people who are willing to pay for rural broadband (take a quick look at the costs for satellite or rural wisp internet), but the major carriers refuse to provide service and fight tooth and nail to make sure no one else can. you have a nation that is fascinated with "the free market" but fails to understand that even if you have a few carriers in any given market, you still have a nationwide oligopoly of providers that can dictates the nations broadband policy. its like opec, but because its the us, suddenly it is capitalism.
my above statement still stands, regardless of what type of attack you feel it is against you.
of course, the key phrase in your above post is
his argument may still be valid
what if it isn't?
q.
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2 edits | reply to TKJunkMail
Technically, it's not an ad hominem attack to clarify that your positions are distorted by your financial investment into many of these companies. He also clearly countered your argument and offered data of his own. Which you ignored in order to pretend that you were offended. You're losing your edge, TK Junkmail (or whatever name you're using this week). As our resident and professional front page troll, we hold you to a higher standard of trolling... |
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TKJunkMail
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| said by Karl Bode :"As our resident and professional front page troll, we hold you to a higher standard of trolling... Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented.
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tubbynet
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| said by TKJunkMail :Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. that would have been true if i *only* called you a shill.
however, i refuted your argument *then* called you a shill. big difference in the order of operations....
we call all liken this to "holding you by the nose and kicking you in the pants".
q.
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TKJunkMail
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| said by tubbynet :said by TKJunkMail :Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. that would have been true if i *only* called you a shill. however, i refuted your argument *then* called you a shill. big difference in the order of operations.... It is still blatant flaming no matter what YOU call it.
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Karl Bode
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| reply to TKJunkMail
quote:
Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented.
Yeah, you cut and pasted that quote once already, but again, his post wasn't ad hominem, as the criticism of you being financially conflicted is legitimate. I've always kind of thought complaints of "ad hominem attacks" were a little intellectually lazy, myself. |
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en102
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That's statistics for you... you can always put some form of spin on it to make it look good or bad.
Countries like US/Australia/Canada are large in landmass, relatively low in population density, with the exception of urban centers. The US is a little more even spread than most, with the exception of the western states. |
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BF69
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said by baineschile :I would say that plain geography counts too. Most countries in europe and SE Asia, where penetration is the highest, are a fraction of the geographical size of the USA. If I ran a country the size of New Jersey, obviously its much easier to wire that square mileage with fiber, as opposed to the whole USA. What does that have to do with anything? That would only matter is ONE company was in charge of building out the entire US and had plans on running lines over hundreds of miles of nothing. None of which is the case.
Japan is the size of Montana yet is more wired than Montana. So going by your logic why isn't Montana more wired? If Japan can do it Montana can do it, they are the same size.
Oh wait I know you'll say Montana has very few people per square mile. Ok well then how come Rhode Island which is not only many times smaller than Japan and has TWICE the population per square mile much less wired than Japan?
60% of the population of the US lives in the top 75 metro areas. No reason why a metro area shouldn't be up date when it comes to being connected to the internet. Even the largest metro areas are smaller than most of the smaller European countries and population density isn't an issue either.
I'm so tired of people making excuses. These people are the same people that continually make excuses as to why their child is a C+ student instead of doing something about it. |
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battleop
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00000 | How many people live in Montana and how many live in Japan? Then think about the ROI on wiring Montana vs. Japan. |
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DSLR Reader
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Why does Karl hold a monopoly on front page news?
or
Why is the front page only "penetrated" by Karl?
I'd really like some front page competition instead of just what Karl thinks of the news he posts.
Geez, it's worse than my broadband options... |
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TKJunkMail
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1 edit | said by DSLR Reader :
I'd really like some front page competition instead of just what Karl thinks of the news he posts.
I do my best - a devil's advocate. But that often draws personal attacks from those who believe Karl walks on water.
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damox
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Olympia, WA | reply to baineschile
Excellent point, and I've been saying that since they started measuring these things!
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said by BF69 :said by baineschile :I would say that plain geography counts too. Most countries in europe and SE Asia, where penetration is the highest, are a fraction of the geographical size of the USA. If I ran a country the size of New Jersey, obviously its much easier to wire that square mileage with fiber, as opposed to the whole USA. I'm so tired of people making excuses. These people are the same people that continually make excuses as to why their child is a C+ student instead of doing something about it. Who cares what your sick of???
This is not a forum about you.....
And why you send everyone else a sick IM talking about your sick preferences...
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