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Comments on news posted 2009-06-23 08:59:41: Techdirt directs our attention to one consultant's exploration of "infinite bandwidth," a concept that sounds good during business meetings but has some very obvious obstacles -- some of which are man made. ..

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Neyland

join:2003-02-04
USA
Pipes?

Sometimes you just can't get the genie back in the bottle....


funchords
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The Unlimited Premium

I can demonstrate this concept, both ways, using Verizon.

FIOS - people will pay more for it, even though the relative speeds are nearly equal, that it's unlimited and unencumbered means its truly superior. Cable might have the best ads, but techies recommend FIOS to their friends.

DSL - Even though cable is fast for surfing (and that's truly good enough for some people), others should and will choose DSL over faster cable because it's cheaper and more capability. The fact is, you can transfer twice as much on a 1.5 Mbps DSL account than you can on any of the the largest cable provider's tiers.

Now if we could get Verizon to quit blocking port 80 and quit errorvertising, I might be a bigger fan...
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decifal

join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN

open it up!

I've been reading articles on how companys wish to cap broadband and bill us by the byte... I figured that by the time they buildout to my house the internet will be soo useless that I won't even be interested no more... But at least outta the 100's pro metered broadband, we have one against it!

Greed is what kills innovation

yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

reply to Neyland
Re: Pipes?

While there are many emotions, self serving positions and dooms day predictions in news similar to this, I don't often read many facts as the jury is still out on the future. That said I highly recommend people read Justin's (owner of dslreports.com) editorial on this topic. It actually makes sense and is pretty unbias (vs purely position or "consumer focused")

»Editorial: Caps are welcome

quote:
Clean fast bandwidth is not an inexhaustible resource. I want my ISP to deliver maximum speed without any perceptible congestion, and with minimal latency. I want them to invest heavily in their infrastructure to ensure they can meet the speed and latency targets morning noon and night. When an ISP engineer says that metering and caps are necessary for quality service, I believe them. Any customer of a data center understands the equation: they understand that BOTH speed and monthly usage are key factors in pricing. US ISPs, due to inheriting dial-up pricing plans (effectively included caps due to very low speeds) have been missing one pricing factor, to the detriment of the majority of users and the benefit to a minority.
The main issue is - historically, as speeds increased, the cost to serve the average customer has not (today) as their usage habbits don't substantially change. There is however a class of user that consumes all bandwidth that is given to them which in turn causes 1 of 2 things

•All the rest of us must share the cost of that group of users (small % of users consuming most of the bandwidth. It is estimated that those going over 250G are something like 0.1% of the user base) - I can dig up the data on this, but sources have been quoted before)
•Those few users should pay their own costs by moving to a business tier or some other method (vs the rest of us funding their traffic)

There is also a future prediction of more and more video services running over broadband vs. traditional means. This is good, but understand that if usage patterns change and double, tripple, +++ then there is an added cost to that as well as a lost revenue from traditional TV. You can say "greedy" all you want, but think through both sides of the issue.

Think through this from all angles.


TKJunkMail
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 Does The Future Hold Infinite Bandwidth? - NO

»Does The Future Hold Infinite Bandwidth?
ISPs pushing bogus concepts like the exaflood, with the goal of hoisting artificial scarcity upon the market.
Seems there ARE limits to ever increasing bandwidth:
»tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/2009···edby2014
That has reduced the financial incentive for carriers to invest in new cables, but they may have to do so by 2014, said Telegeography analyst Erik Kreifeldt.

"The market prices for capacity on the trans-Atlantic routes today don't support the business case for building a new cable system," Kreifeldt said. The coming shift in the industry from oversupply to scarcity is likely to rebalance the economics of cables, raising the prices that service providers pay for capacity for the first time in years, he said.

However, demand is likely to rise by 33 percent per year between 2008 and 2015, Telegeography predicts. That will eat away the over-capacity by 2014, the company said. Before that happens, someone will have to lay new cable or risk not being able to accommodate more traffic.

The problem is that the price of trans-Atlantic bandwidth today only covers the incremental cost of the optical gear on either end of the cable to provision the circuit, according to Telegeography. It doesn't cover the cost of actually laying the fiber, because no one has had to do that for so long.

"You're not going to be swapping that stuff out," Kreifeldt said. Submarine gear that was designed to handle 2.5G bits per second per wavelength has been upgraded for 10G bps links, but it won't be able to support the coming 100G bps technology, he said. Even the 40G bps technology being used today on land is unproven on submarine cables.

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yt
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join:2008-06-03

Voice vs Data

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

The "infinite bandwidth" argument isn't entirely unlike those who believed (including News Corp's Rupert Murdoch) that the price of voice services would ultimately declining to zero, as software applications made voice communications simply another form of data.
Comparing voice costs with data is good fodder, but it is illogical. Voice is very different than data as usage does not increase. We don't use our phone more each year (with texting and email it is actually less) and the bandwidth / call is shrinking vs growing. Technology has made voice cheaper, but DWDM was the last real technology breakthrough in network costs and I haven't see anything that big in a while.

Network Guy

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reply to funchords
Re: The Unlimited Premium

said by funchords See Profile :

Now if we could get Verizon to quit blocking port 80 and quit errorvertising, I might be a bigger fan...
Verizon no longer blocks outbound port 80 via DSL


Karl Bode
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1 edit
reply to yt
Re: Voice vs Data

I think you miss the point. The point isn't to suggest data/voice pricing and delivery is similar, the point is to suggest that market power can be used to prevent erosion of traditional revenues by using methods to curtail the threat....

On the wireless voice front, control over what applications run on the handset allows carriers to prevent Skype from eroding voice revenues (AT&T blocking 3G functionality).

On the data front, high overages can be used to protect TV revenues and manage content competition (Time Warner Cable protecting TV revenues by imposing 5GB caps and $2 per GB overages).

In both cases capacity scarcity is used to justify the behavior, but the reality is there's content/services competitive action at play too, though I know people in the industry don't like to admit that the sector that employs them is anything less than honorable...


Karl Bode
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4 edits
reply to yt
Re: Pipes?

It actually makes sense and is pretty unbias (vs purely position or "consumer focused")
Yes, yes, one man's bias is another man's unblemished truth, depending on the degree it adheres to one's own belief.

I'd recommend readers read the responses to Justin's editorial as well. While I respect his positions, I don't believe his post explored the entirety of developments on the metered billing front, or acknowledged the use of the "exaflood" as a lobbying and policy weapon to keep prices high by over-inflating the threat of looming capacity requirements and the ability to adapt to them.

Secondly, Many people here aren't against caps, they're against unreasonable caps or steep overages that don't even remotely begin to accurately reflect costs. In Time Warner Cable's particular effort, the overages of up to 2,000% with caps as low as 5GB. Even accounting for delivery and support that was simply insane.

Network growth is manageable and the costs to supply bandwidth are dropping -- that does raise a lot of questions of what happens to a carrier down the line as bandwidth provisional costs continue to drop and content companies do a better job at innovation on the applications/services front.

I do believe carriers will do anything to avoid being unlimited dumb-pipe providers. That includes the the wholesale fabrication of capacity crisis and any number of anti-competitive tactics. That said, I don't exclude the possibility of innovative new pricing models that take consumption or even application use into consideration -- I just haven't seen any that actually deliver better value to the consumer over what they're getting now.


funchords
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reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Does The Future Hold Infinite Bandwidth? - NO

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Seems there ARE limits to ever increasing bandwidth:
»tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/2009···edby2014
That has reduced the financial incentive for carriers to invest in new cables, but they may have to do so by 2014, said Telegeography analyst Erik Kreifeldt....
There is so much wrong with that article, it's hard to know where to start. However, even the article agrees that as the pipe fills, it will be filled with carriage that costs more given less supply. This will spur some kind of change -- another cable or technology.

However, it may ignore the fact that traffic has been migrating to avoid the US links and traffic has been migrating toward the edges. I do appreciate that it says demand is likely to rise by 33 percent per year until 2015, which tends to both exclude any possibility of an exaflood yet also tends to make me believe that they think that video and peer-to-peer will continue to ride across the net, whilst efforts are strong to move that stuff closer to the edges.
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Smith6612
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reply to funchords
Re: The Unlimited Premium

I have Verizon DSL and my port 80 is wide open on Residential Dynamic IP. Others are reporting that on both FiOS and DSL as well.
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S_engineer

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2 edits
reply to Karl Bode
Re: Pipes?

Your right Karl, his editorial also seemed to be wrong on several fronts. The carriers appearance of collusion on pricing models and now caps have raised flags everywhere. Proper network management can be implemented for capacity solutions. The geographical impediments seem to be the excuse to leave America in this stagnant growth period in regards to our "pipes".
And I don't buy the argument that capping everyone saves bandwidth. Your low usage customers still outweigh the "abusers" by far, so the mean usage should never hit the point where a network can't handle it. It's like with cable HSI. From 9:00am to 9:00pm when everyones on the shared node, the network handles the capacity, including most of these low usage customers. Are you going to dictate when people use their connection so the average includes the overnight hours?
Lastly, if these carriers didn't have the capacity, why did you sell to so many customers? weren't these carriers paying attention to growth forecasts?

Edit*for errors
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Karl Bode
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If 0.1% of the customers are causing the problem (their own numbers), you put them on business tiers or implement a high cap that catches them in a net. You don't implement an entirely new pricing model that will impact a significant majority of your customers down the road. Particularly in a market that you've bred to be reliant on the simplicity of flat-rate pricing.

Time Warner Cable hadn't even implemented DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades before deciding they needed 5GB caps and $5/GB overages.

It's about Internet video and preventing "devolution" into a dumb pipe. While capacity issues are real, they're manageable. Capacity is used as a red herring to justify a move that's about protecting content revenues and maintaining market power...I don't think many network engineers see this bigger picture outside the NOC....


espaeth
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reply to Karl Bode
Re: Voice vs Data

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

On the wireless voice front, control over applications allows carriers to prevent Skype from eroding voice revenues.
Even if they didn't restrict Skype, you've got free applications like Fring that only a few people are able to make work successfully. Wireless data has improved significantly in the last decade, and yet high latency and jitter is still too variable in EVDO / GPRS / EDGE / whatever to work with most of the codecs that these clients use by default. Right now the biggest thing holding back the adoption of the technology is the functionality of the technology itself.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

On the data front, high overages can be used to protect TV revenues and manage content competition. (Time Warner Cable protecting TV revenues by imposing 5GB caps and $2 per GB overages)
Your argument works a lot better by taking the absolutely lowest tier offered to make your case. If you take the more typical 100GB tier that people going for online video would be subscribed to and combine it with the natural limitations of IP video distribution this becomes much less of a compelling argument. I'm sure at the corporate level there is a little bit of concern about the loss of some video business, but it's about as rational as an elephant being afraid of a mouse. There are significant distribution factors at play that would limit the full scale impact that online video can have on traditional video revenue streams.


funchords
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reply to Smith6612
Re: The Unlimited Premium

Whoa! Cool! Thanks for the correction!

yt
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join:2008-06-03

reply to Karl Bode
Re: Pipes?

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

If 0.1% of the customers are causing the problem (their own numbers), you put them on business tiers or implement a high cap that catches them in a net. You don't implement an entirely new pricing model that will impact a significant majority of your customers down the road. Particularly in a market that you've bred to be reliant on the simplicity of flat-rate pricing.
QFT. Bandwidth is not unlimited and major growth is not free


Karl Bode
News Guy
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2 edits
nm


Karl Bode
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4 edits
reply to espaeth
Re: Voice vs Data

Even if they didn't restrict Skype, you've got free applications like Fring that only a few people are able to make work successfully. Wireless data has improved significantly in the last decade, and yet high latency and jitter is still too variable in EVDO / GPRS / EDGE / whatever to work with most of the codecs that these clients use by default. Right now the biggest thing holding back the adoption of the technology is the functionality of the technology itself.
Early tests with Skype indicated it worked just fine over HSDPA. I've seen no indication that the technology isn't there, but I've seen plenty of evidence of carriers doing their best to keep mobile voice applications from making voice minutes less relevant by restricting consumer access to such applications on handsets.
Your argument works a lot better by taking the absolutely lowest tier offered to make your case.
100GB is more reasonable, but the intent is the same, and the overage costs ($1.50 to $2 on TOP of a fairly large monthly fee still aren't reasonable based on carrier costs). Metering bandwidth in turn meters content consumption, preventing life down the road as an unlimited dumb pipe where other companies innovate content and services.
I'm sure at the corporate level there is a little bit of concern about the loss of some video business, but it's about as rational as an elephant being afraid of a mouse.
Again, afraid I disagree when looking at a 20 year window. Time Warner Cable's efforts clearly illustrate they're worried. And while Internet video is only just nipping at the heels of TV, things will change over the next decade. No, TV will remain dominant for many years because of certain inherent advantages (live events), but the fear of lost TV revenue is valid. Especially as speeds increase and home media distribution solutions get simpler/cheaper.

TV viewership still outweighs the entire usage population of the Internet by about 100 million, which will change. Revenue from Web-to-TV streaming services will grow to $2.9 billion by 2013. These execs are crunching the numbers of future TV defections and the metered billing push is driven by that. To deny this motivation denies some very obvious realities IMO...

bamabrad

join:2006-01-27
Port Orange, FL

MAKE them dumb pipes....

Remember AT&T? They got too big in their field and the government broke them into the Baby Bells. If these companies don't play nice(and won't with $$$ involved), then force them to become one or the other-pipe owner and they will want all the traffic they can get or content provider and they will want all they traffic they can get. If they have both then there is no motivation to go forward-only to milk as much money possible from what they now have-no competition.


espaeth
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reply to Karl Bode
Re: Voice vs Data

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Early tests with Skype indicated it worked just fine over HSDPA. I've seen no indication that the technology isn't there, but I've seen plenty of evidence of carriers doing their best to keep mobile voice applications from making voice minutes less relevant by restricting consumer access to such applications on handsets.
Ok, so you've never tried it yourself.

Yeah, you can get it to work, but the quality ends to being crap if you actually want to use your mobile phone like a mobile phone. Standard cell phone voice works incredibly well between different tower handoffs because, shockingly, the network was designed for this purpose. When you take applications developed primarily for LAN-based network voice with predictable jitter and latency and port them to the highly volatile mobile data networks, it tends to work out poorly.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Your argument works a lot better by taking the absolutely lowest tier offered to make your case.
100GB is more reasonable, but the intent is the same, and the overage costs ($1.50 to $2 on TOP of a fairly large monthly fee still aren't reasonable based on carrier costs). Metering bandwidth in turn meters content consumption, preventing life down the road as an unlimited dumb pipe where other companies innovate content and services.
That's a nice line of BS, but reality doesn't line up. We pay per kilowatt hour of energy consumed, that hasn't stopped us from a massive growth in consumer electronics in homes resulting in higher power utility bills than at any other point in history. If it does something useful, the technology will succeed.

The converse of that is if you give something away for free, people will take it no matter how crappy and worthless it is. It's just the psychology of free.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

I'm sure at the corporate level there is a little bit of concern about the loss of some video business, but it's about as rational as an elephant being afraid of a mouse.
Again, afraid I disagree when looking at a 20 year window. Time Warner Cable's efforts clearly illustrate they're worried. And while Internet video is only just nipping at the heels of TV, things will change over the next decade. No, TV will remain dominant for many years because of certain inherent advantages (live events), but the fear of lost TV revenue is valid. Especially as speeds increase and home media distribution solutions get simpler/cheaper.

TV viewership still outweighs the entire usage population of the Internet by about 100 million, which will change. Revenue from Web-to-TV streaming services will grow to $2.9 billion by 2013. These execs are crunching the numbers of future TV defections and the metered billing push is driven by that. To deny this motivation denies some very obvious realities IMO...
That's the joke of this whole scenario -- the infrastructure costs to grow Web-to-TV feeds to that level are insane.

Just look at Youtube and the sheer amount of infrastructure it takes for them to distribute 0-10minute video clips in "watchable" quality to 80 million people worldwide.

I think I'm starting to know what Greenspan felt like when he was talking about the dot com boom before the bubble finally burst. The Internet is a communication tool, not a business model. The problem of scalability are so hopelessly obvious that it amazes me that more people don't see it. The distribution model turns upside down in relation to costs compared to existing video broadcast methods. IP Video definitely has a play in the PPV / video rental / VoD space, which is an important and lucrative minority share in current video consumption.

To say that IP Video is going to take over completely is like saying we're all going to convert to cars running on BioDiesel made by refining cooking oil from fast food restaurants while remaining completely oblivious to the fact that there's not enough fast food discard oil to even power a single community.
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