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Comments on news posted 2009-07-31 18:08:44: The weekend has arrived. Chat among yourselves in the comment section below. ..
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 | | Happy Friday... I had to work a full week, but will have the next three Fridays off  . | |
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 Mr FelFlynn LivesPremium
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY | I don't know about you all But I'm gonna enjoy a weekend long lan party. What's everyone else plan for their weekend? | |
| | | | Re: I don't know about you all I'm working overtime tomorrow  . | |
| | | Mr FelFlynn LivesPremium
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY | Re: I don't know about you all That sucks, I'll be sure to drink a round for ya. | |
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| me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Pokemon platinum, and fishing in our private pond. And of course youtube. | |
| |  HpowerRoflmao
join:2000-06-08
Glendale, CA | Oh man I so miss having lan parties!
Brings back memories to good old quake 1 and quake 2 days when I'd go over to my buddies house, stay over for days while his parents were gone to Brazil and just lan it up, transfer files, play online and kick ass.
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The Internet is about to go down....it is actually. | |
| | | | | Mr FelFlynn LivesPremium
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY | Re: I don't know about you all Sure thing. | |
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|  Rogue WolfAte Your Homework, And Framed The Dog
join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY | Relaxation. Took a week's vacation to escape from Retail Hell, and I intend on lounging about as much as I can. Might work on one of my novels, too... or maybe just play video games. 
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Hexadecimal humor really turns me 0FF. | |
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 kapilThe Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL
1 edit | Healthcare Your friendly neighborhood congress critter is on its way back home from DC. Please don't forget to write, call, fax, email, visit it and impress upon it the importance of healthcare reform.
The future of this nation depends on reforming how we deal with this problem. It's a matter of great urgency and indeed a matter of national security and prosperity.
We need health care for all. Without regard to one's ability to pay, one's place on the social hierarchy and existing medical condition.
Medical care needs to be the 11th right enshrined in the constitution, guaranteed to all fortunate enough to call this great land their home. Anything less, and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for having failed our fellow citizens.
Now's the time. The greatest generation didn't become so by shirking its responsibility. It's now our turn....don't let your country down.
Push forward and demand that each and every one of our fellow citizens receive the care they deserve without regard to profit, greedy insurance companies, unethical medical professionals and unscrupulous pharmaceutical companies.
It is, in no uncertain terms, now or never.
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»www.VoIPTrunk.com | |
| |  IT GuyOw, My BallsPremium
join:2004-07-29
Las Cruces, NM
 ·Comcast
| Re: Healthcare Agreed. My good friend, only 27 was diagnosed with Leukemia this week. The insurance company was jerking him around even before his diagnosis and the Oncologist here has already misdiagnosed his Leukemia as AML. Thankfully, when they flew him back home and had another Oncologist in a top-50 hospital check his labs, the Dr. said it was not acute, but chronic which is much better news considering the disease.
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My time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on a splinter. --Beck | |
| | |  John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:3 | Re: Healthcare said by IT Guy:... but chronic which is much better news considering the disease. My daughter has CML. She is treated quite successfully with Gleevec.
»www.marrow.org/PATIENT/Undrstnd_···dex.html
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The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.
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| | | | IT GuyOw, My BallsPremium
join:2004-07-29
Las Cruces, NM Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Healthcare That's really good to hear and consistent with what I've read about it. It's just disturbing that the initial diagnosis from the first Oncologist here was AML. Thank God Lubbock has better facilities.
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My time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on a splinter. --Beck | |
| | | | | | | Re: Healthcare Unfortunately, universal health care doesn't guarantee good universal health care and that scenario would probably not have changed under kapil's system. | |
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| | | Sounds good and all but how are we going to pay for it? | |
| | | Reviews:
 ·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Healthcare said by ninjatutle:Sounds good and all but how are we going to pay for it? That's not an excuse for perpetuating the unjust socialized system we have now. Perhaps when it's everyone's problem we'll be more motivated to find effective solutions.
A large part of the problem today is that Republicans don't want to have an honest debate. They want to say reform is "socialization." Or, "we can't pay for it." Or, government can't administer health care.
What they don't address is how our existing system exists entirely due to public law ("government" or "socialization") altering the market to produce higher-quality goods and services than an unregulated market would produce among "willing buyers and sellers." This artificial quality comes at a price: eliminating from the market what many people would be willing (and able) to afford.
To me, this is what's perverse about the Republican position. They say a "free market is better." But, they ignore the millions of Americans who are denied a free market. That is the problem Democrats (and most Americans) want to address. The only Republican contribution to the debate is fear mongering to maintain the status quo. Turning Americans against those who suffer under the current socialized system, reminding them that their compassion may cost them -- while not mentioning how our artificially-created market costs millions of Americans today by denying them the market of goods and services (through public law enforced at the pointy end of a gun) which they can afford.
The problem isn't that we want to give things to people they can't afford. It's that we've used public law to eliminate what they can afford! But, you'll never hear Republicans (self-proclaimed defenders of individual liberty and "free markets) talk about that. You'll just hear Ron Paul repeating "socialism."
Mark | |
| | | |  Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: Healthcare Pay no attention to amigo_boy, he lives in a world where if the government puts up so much as a stop sign in your town well by gosh they might as well institute full socialism because it's the exact same thing.
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Come let us reason together. | |
| | | | |  mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | Re: Healthcare No he fails to answer the questions...
How and who is going to pay for it.
It's a pretty straight forward question, But it never gets answered. Because they either; don't have an answer or, they don't care who pays for it.
It's emotional leadership...and if you don't agree then you are irrelevant or get accused of all sorts of things (mainly to avoid the questions or issues)
Who is going to pay for this new health care plan?
Ahh...all of us already strapped "workers"?
pretty soon I'll have to quit my job because I can't afford to work. Then I can get "MY ENTITLEMENT"...
I heard this plan will cover a certain 'elective' procedure. does this mean all other 'elective' procedures are covered (boob jobs, nose jobs, ect)? I hope so, my girl wants a boob job and I would rather government (all of you) to pay for it...
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Healthcare said by mrkevin:No he fails to answer the questions... How and who is going to pay for it. I've never said the existing reform proposal is even close to how I would reform the system. I've only said that one benefit will be that when it's everyone's problem maybe we (as a society) will be more motivated to find real solutions than "the existing system distributed to everyone."
When I say "everyone's problem," I mean, when everyone is denied (to some extent) their ability to buy what they could otherwise afford within a market of willing buyers and sellers. Then we might get past the problem of those affected by the possibility of reform complaining how they'll suffer that injustice -- as they (with the help of the Republican party) ignore how millions suffer that problem today. They're denied what they can afford (lessor-quality goods and services, like a doctor with 7 years of education instead of 8) just because those who can afford the existing system don't want a healthcare market with greater variation (and responsibility to exercise due diligence when participating in that market).
Finally, just like you accuse me of never addressing who will pay for this reform, I accuse you of never addressing how the existing healthcare system is paid for on the backs of millions of Americans whose healthcare choices (lessor-quality, less expensive) have been criminalized, leaving them with the choice of nothing.
I'm sure you would agree that you don't get something for nothing. So, when we use public law to create a healthcare market of "uniformly higher quality" than the market would produce if left to willing buyers and sellers, who paid for that? Those who've lost their ability to buy services from someone with 7 years of education instead of 8?
How is that acceptable when it's supposed to be unacceptable to make this socially-created market of high-quality health care available to all society (spreading the pain around to everyone, that they "can't buy what they want to" just because "society says so")?
Mark | |
| | | | | | | mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME
1 edit | Re: Healthcare said by amigo_boy:said by mrkevin:No he fails to answer the questions... How and who is going to pay for it. I've never said the existing reform proposal is even close to how I would reform the system. I've only said that one benefit will be that when it's everyone's problem maybe we (as a society) will be more motivated to find real solutions than "the existing system distributed to everyone." When I say "everyone's problem," I mean, when everyone is denied (to some extent) their ability to buy what they could otherwise afford within a market of willing buyers and sellers. Then we might get past the problem of those affected by the possibility of reform complaining how they'll suffer that injustice -- as they (with the help of the Republican party) ignore how millions suffer that problem today. They're denied what they can afford (lessor-quality goods and services, like a doctor with 7 years of education instead of 8) just because those who can afford the existing system don't want a healthcare market with greater variation (and responsibility to exercise due diligence when participating in that market). Finally, just like you accuse me of never addressing who will pay for this reform, I accuse you of never addressing how the existing healthcare system is paid for on the backs of millions of Americans whose healthcare choices (lessor-quality, less expensive) have been criminalized, leaving them with the choice of nothing.I'm sure you would agree that you don't get something for nothing. So, when we use public law to create a healthcare market of "uniformly higher quality" than the market would produce if left to willing buyers and sellers, who paid for that? Those who've lost their ability to buy services from someone with 7 years of education instead of 8? How is that acceptable when it's supposed to be unacceptable to make this socially-created market of high-quality health care available to all society (spreading the pain around to everyone, that they "can't buy what they want to" just because "society says so")? Mark You still didn't answer the question.
You just spouted off how unjust the system is.
I wish they had two health care systems.
one for all the people who work-pay taxes-have insurance
and one for all the people who don't work, don't pay taxes, and generally have unhealthy lifestyles
Your question: the existing health care system is paid for on the backs of millions of Americans whose health care choices (lessor-quality, less expensive) have been criminalized, leaving them with the choice of nothing.
Bullshit. they system today is where it is BECAUSE they don't turn anyone away. Is that the choice of nothing...
Even illegal immigrants can walk in to the hospital and get treatment...Do you think I would get the same treatment in their country (no of course not)
Your question doesn't even make any sence
Do you think the future health care plan will not be paid for on the backs of tens of millions of Americans?
Who the hell do you think pays the taxes, to spend on health care.
You'll end up with a system that is more expensive, and has less choices. (but everyone will have the same crappy health care so that makes it OK)
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. | |
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·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Healthcare said by mrkevin:You still didn't answer the question. We could pay for it through more progressive taxation (the wealthy paying a higher percentage of the cost). But, you would complain that this is "theft" even though you're ok with "stealing" the lessor goods and services which would be available to average Americans if our healthcare system wasn't regulated by public law as it is today. I.e., if it weren't a healthcare system for foreigners to come here because they can afford it, but a system that is affordable (and thus available) to Americans.
I mean, we use Public Law to criminalize "doctors" with 7 years of education. This is part of what makes our healthcare system so uniform, predictable, and desirable to foreigners who can afford it. But, would having doctors with just 7 years of education really be harmful to Americans who can't afford our system? You're essentially ok with denying Americans this "market choice" because it would make the market less predictable for you (and thus add to the work you'd have to do when selecting a doctor).
That benefit (which wouldn't result from a market of willing buyers and sellers) comes at someone else's expense. You're ok with that. But, if we talk about making this socially-created "market" more equitable for all of the society that created it, you start jumping up and down about how it's everyone else who's a "socialist" (or practicing "wealth transfer.").
You don't answer that question. It doesn't match your ideological view of the world (probably cultivated by talk radio). So, you just ignore it, insisting it was the other person who didn't answer the question.
Just an example of how Republicans don't want to have an honest debate about healthcare.
said by mrkevin:I wish they had two health care systems. one for all the people who work-pay taxes-have insurance and one for all the people who don't work, don't pay taxes, and generally have unhealthy lifestyles This is a typical Right Wing position. It could be summed up as "I wish the world were more libertarian. Where I could choose what I'm willing to buy (based upon what I can afford). A world where I'm not forced to limit my choices in the interest of others. A world where I'm not forced to pay for the choices of others."
That sounds terrific until we ask why the same people who pretend to be highly principled are completely mum about how we (as a society, using public law) have criminalized affordable healthcare just because a doctor with 7 years of education would be "dangerous" (compared to 8 years). As far as I can tell, such a doctor would only be dangerous to the medical monopoly we've created through Public Law!
We (as a society) have denied the very choice that you say should exist. All we hear is how you like the system the way it is today. Nothing about how it violates the principles you pretend to adhere to. Not until society proposes making this already-limited "market" more-justly limited to everyone, not just a few so that it benefits you at their expense.
But, like the character on the '70s sitcom Soap, you'll just wave your hand before your face, repeating "I'm invisible, I'm invisible." Followed by "you didn't answer the question."
Mark | |
| | | | | | | | | mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | Re: Healthcare We could pay for it through more progressive taxation (the wealthy paying a higher percentage of the cost). This is typical 'leftist' propaganda. The old Robin Hood theme. The rich have more so they should pay more. Nevermind the hard work 'some' of these people have done to get where they are today.
you're ok with "stealing" the lessor goods and services which would be available to average Americans if our healthcare system wasn't regulated by public law as it is today. I.e., if it weren't a healthcare system for foreigners to come here because they can afford it, but a system that is affordable (and thus available) to Americans. You are admitting that 'public law' has had this effect, but your solution is MORE 'public law'. Again typical "liberal Left wing" government is the solution to all our woes.
we use Public Law to criminalize "doctors" with 7 years of education. Examples please, I have no idea what you're talking about.
You want less educated doctors?
You're essentially ok with denying Americans this "market choice" because it would make the market less predictable for you No, You are OK with taking away peoples choice. so that everything is predictable to you
(probably cultivated by talk radio) Opie and Anthony..yah...look out, right wing conspirators
Playboy Channel..Again WAY over to the right.
This is a typical Right Wing position. It could be summed up as "I wish the world were more libertarian. Where I could choose what I'm willing to buy (based upon what I can afford). A world where I'm not forced to limit my choices in the interest of others. A world where I'm not forced to pay for the choices of others." What is wrong with that? It's called "personal responsibility"
But, like the character on the '70s sitcom Soap, you'll just wave your hand before your face, repeating "I'm invisible, I'm invisible." Followed by "you didn't answer the question." Well, I feel the same way about you. You just keep spouting "criminalizing doctors" and "using Public law" trying to confuse an already confusing issue. It's a page out of the Leftist propaganda handbook.
Accuse, Refuse, Confuse, then Reuse.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. | |
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·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Healthcare said by mrkevin:This is typical 'leftist' propaganda. The old Robin Hood theme. The rich have more so they should pay more. Nevermind the hard work 'some' of these people have done to get where they are today. I'm not ignoring the hard work you've done. I think you're ignoring the hard work the Walmart worker has done. The worker who doesn't earn healthcare insurance as part of their job. And who is denied the opportunity to purchase what they can afford because we as a society have legislatively "shaped" the market to serve your interests at the expense of theirs.
said by mrkevin:You are admitting that 'public law' has had this effect, but your solution is MORE 'public law'. Again typical "liberal Left wing" government is the solution to all our woes. Ok. But, what's your solution? I don't see you advocating less "public law" to allow a freer (more disparate) market of goods and services, so that everyone's needs can be met based upon what they can afford to purchase.
All I'm hearing is how you're comfortable with the level of "public law" we have now because it benefits you (at the expense of others). But, if it's altered to benefit all of society, suddenly you're like Linda Blair (The Exorcist), head spinning, puking green-pea soup, "Liberals... Socialists..."
said by mrkevin:we use Public Law to criminalize "doctors" with 7 years of education. Examples please, I have no idea what you're talking about. You want less educated doctors? Hmmm... I don't think I can prove a negative. Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to provide examples of licensed doctors with 7 years of education? A lesssor-grade of goods and services available to those willing to pay for it?
said by mrkevin:No, You are OK with taking away peoples choice. so that everything is predictable to you I've said that when the problem affects everyone, then we might be more inclined to find real solutions, and less susceptible to class-warfare arguments used by both political parties.
To me, that's the only benefit of the existing proposal(s). If we're going to have socially-created market-based injustice, it might as well be equitably applied to all society.
If we don't do that, those who oppose reform remain silent about how to fix the problems (and injustice) which already exists. If the choice is one-sided injustice so that "America has the best healthcare (for only some people, at the expense of others who are denied market choices they can afford)," then we might as well make this injustice felt by everyone. Maybe then people will want to have an honest debate instead of being told "you're going to lose something... Oppose it! Oppose it!"
said by mrkevin:What is wrong with that? It's called "personal responsibility" Ok. But, what do you think of people denied the opportunity to be personally responsible for their healthcare by buying what they can afford? You're wound up about how your choices may be limited, or that you might be forced to pay for something you don't want. But, that's exactly what we do to millions of Americans today with a socially-created "market" with artificially (and arbitrarily) defined standards. Higher priced and higher-quality than millions of Americans would be willing to purchase. Just so we can say "we have the best healthcare system in the world (forget about all those people who effectively have no system because they can't afford the one we've created through Public Law).
You used a libertarian argument to justify freedom of choice. But ignored how you have improved choices at the expense of eliminating the freedom of choice of others. And, that you apparently are ok with this as long as it's not your choice that's impeded.
said by mrkevin:Well, I feel the same way about you. You just keep spouting "criminalizing doctors" and "using Public law" trying to confuse an already confusing issue. If the depth of your understanding weren't limited to the sound bites you've heard from Talk Radio, you might understand what I'm talking about. But, for now, you have the task to identify the lower-quality (and lower-priced) healthcare options available to Americans who don't want (nor afford) the artificially-created market of high-quality and high-priced goods and services. Based upon your argument, you seem to think this is available today. Which explains your confusion.
Mark | |
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 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Healthcare I think that I will stick with the medical schools, the AMA, and licensing laws to determine the education need for a doctor. Sorry, there, amigo_boy, but you just don't seem qualified to determine the qualifications of medical doctors, at least not ones that I want practicing on me.
Have a good day. | |
| | | | | | | | | |  KoilPremium
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC | Re: Healthcare I said something similar to this and I guess I am on post restriction (again). But there is no way that I would trust myself to a "Doctor" that just didn't feel the need to squeak out the last few years of medical school.
There is a damn good reason those standards are in place...because while in your mind you think that it would lead to the cost of healthcare, you may be right...but it will also lead to a MASSIVE drop in the quality of that care.
No thanks, you can keep your quacks.
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Let us so live that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry. -Mark Twain
My Blog - Raising Connor - »raisingconnor.blogspot.com/ - updated 3/11/09 | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Healthcare said by Koil:I said something similar to this and I guess I am on post restriction (again). But there is no way that I would trust myself to a "Doctor" that just didn't feel the need to squeak out the last few years of medical school. Why not 8 years, six months? What makes 8 years sacred?
(And, this doesn't even begin to address why your need for 8 years should be everyone else's need.).
Mark | |
| | | | | | | | | | KoilPremium
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC
1 edit | Re: Healthcare I don't know..I'm not a doctor. Maybe they've determined that all whack jobs drop out after 7 years and 364 days. What I do know is that the standards that they have set, thus far have done very well in making the QUALITY of health care in the United States some of the best in the world. Do you think that what you're advocating will keep that trend up, or can we look down the road a little bit and see what would really happen. In that suddenly there is a new "market" for .02 cent snake oil salesmen setting up shop and claiming to be Doctor's when they're not.
Now, I am going to guess again that I am now some how either spewing Libertarian or Republican rhetoric again because by keeping those standards high, I am leaving out the "poor" and denying them the health care they would choose. I say that you're opening them up to a whole new slew of God knows what kind of issues that they'll run into due to misdiagnosis, improper treatment, etc....and again, whats the flip side of that? Gargantuan legal fees when these guys get their pants sued off for taking off someones arm because he had a tummy ache.
No...frikkin...way.
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Let us so live that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry. -Mark Twain
My Blog - Raising Connor - »raisingconnor.blogspot.com/ - updated 3/11/09 | |
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| Re: Healthcare said by Koil:I don't know..I'm not a doctor. That's fine. I recognize your right to purchase services from doctors who have been accredited to your standards (8 years of education).
I'm still asking why you believe you have the right to impose that choice on others using public law -- while denying any responsibility to those who could only afford (and were willing to patronize) doctors with only 7 years of education?
said by Koil:What I do know is that the standards that they have set, thus far have done very well in making the QUALITY of health care in the United States some of the best in the world. Sure, if you can afford it. We could also use public law to say doctors are required to have 30 years of education. Imagine how much better that would be compared to other countries. It would only be affordable to 1% of the population. But, according to your calculus, it would be "better" just because the 1% would benefit?
said by Koil:Do you think that what you're advocating will keep that trend up, or can we look down the road a little bit and see what would really happen. In that suddenly there is a new "market" for .02 cent snake oil salesmen setting up shop and claiming to be Doctor's when they're not. Shouldn't the choice to patronize such be the responsibility of the individual?
Of course, I don't advocate a truly Darwinian "free market" of healthcare goods and services. Neither do you. What I'm getting at is that you will use collective arguments against such an environment, that it's in the "interest of public safety" that we set standards higher than a truly "free market" would produce.
And then, in the same breath, you'll disclaim any collective responsibility to individuals who are harmed by this social intervention in the market. Or, that universal health care violates "free market" principles.
"Public interest" means your interest. "Free markets" means "free" if it improves your market choices.
said by Koil:I say that you're opening them up to a whole new slew of God knows what kind of issues that they'll run into due to misdiagnosis, improper treatment, etc....and again, whats the flip side of that? Gargantuan legal fees when these guys get their pants sued off for taking off someones arm because he had a tummy ache. I believe a large part of our malpractice problem is due to the fact that the system (and its supporters) promote it as "the best system in the world." With such claims come great expectations.
If we could choose among grades of healthcare, it would make more sense to hold the purchaser responsible for their expectations that come with their purchase.
Remember, there's nothing sacred about our existing system. We (as a society) chose 8 years instead of 12. And, only one pharmacist per pharmacy instead of 2.
I think we can undo these levels a bit without incurring much more risk than we did when we set the levels to what they are today.
Mark | |
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| said by Austinloop:I think that I will stick with the medical schools, the AMA, and licensing laws to determine the education need for a doctor. That's fine. I just don't think you should use Public Law to impose this on everyone else. Creating higher prices and qualities than a "free market" would produce.
The problem is that Right Wingers use libertarian rhetoric to oppose reform, because reforms will impede their personal liberties to buy what they wish. But, when it's suggested that the poor be allowed to buy what they wish (and can afford), Right Wingers object that we can't have a libertarian market of health care.
Right Wingers have it pretty good. They've bet on every horse in the race. They can argue libertarian and collective arguments in the same breath. And the result is always the same: they benefit at the expense of others. 
Mark | |
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See 13 replies to this post |
| | | | | | | whos going to pay for a 800 million dollar war, it was that there going to play the worlds police and let my kids_kids pay for it ,it didnt stop them idiots from doing it.i think trying to figure how to pay for good healthcare for all and make our kids_kids pay is a better war.. | |
| | | | | | | mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | Re: Healthcare said by shoegazer:whos going to pay for a 800 million dollar war, it was that there going to play the worlds police and let my kids_kids pay for it ,it didnt stop them idiots from doing it.i think trying to figure how to pay for good healthcare for all and make our kids_kids pay is a better war.. I will gladly pay the 800 million. how much would it have cost by not going to war? how much did it cost for 9/11?
I don't want to be the world's police, but I don't want to stand around with my thumb up my ass waiting for another terrorist attack.
You have people who want to kill you just because you are not their religion. You are an infidel in their eyes, and that means according to the Quran they have the right to cut off your head or kill you in whatever means they see fit. (I have read a good deal of the Quran) They don't give two shits how or what you think. They are taught from a young age to hate the west. I have been there and seen it with my two eyes!
All you people who think we went to war for a political reason have better get your head out of your ass and start looking around. WAKE UP!
I suggest if you want to live in a "non war mongering" country, try France, I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
Remember Nick Burg?
He got his head chopped off. He was a civilian who went there to help those people. he wasn't part of any security forces. Watch the video and tell me these people can be civil and reasonable...
Allah Akbar!!!! Your kids will be saying this in school soon.
better get your berka's out because females have "0, NONE, NADA" rights. I watched a guy slap some other guy's wife because he didn't like the way she was looking around and that was fine with her husband (I'm sure she got beaten again at home) I watched a kid get his arm run over with a truck for stealing a piece of bread. (yah, these are great people)
Tell me is this your vision for this country?
and if you think the government is going to provide "good health care" you are fooling yourself.
Don't worry your monthly welfare check should be in the mail tomorrow
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. | |
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1 edit | said by Combat Chuck:they might as well institute full socialism That's the first time I've seen you distinguish between lessor (and greater) socialism. That it's a matter of degrees, not absolutes. Usually it's the Hard Right who insists everything we have today is a "free market." But, if it is reformed, it's "socialism."
Do you also accept
1) Our existing socialized healthcare system (which sets quality of goods and services significantly higher than a market of willing buyers and sellers would) is vastly "more socialism" than a traffic sign?
2) Eliminating this lessor-quality healthcare market "for the interest of public safety" results in: "for the benefit of those who can afford the resulting artificial, higher-quality market (because they have to exercise less due diligence when purchasing goods and services)?"
3) It's exceptionally perverse to say it's "for public safety" that we eliminate lessor goods and services (for example, doctors with 7 years of education instead of 8) from the market, and essentially tell those who can't afford the resulting artificial market "you're safer by not being able to buy any care for your health. No care is safer for you than allowing you to buy marginally inferior goods and services?"
4) "Wealth transfer" isn't limited to just taking $10 from your wallet and giving it to someone else? That eliminating a market of lessor-quality goods and services is essentially a "wealth transfer?" An individual who can't buy why they can afford because those goods and services are criminalized by society (to improve market outcomes for those who can afford the resulting artificial market) is an elimination of wealth? (The benefit I have to purchase what I can afford, is transferred to others so they can have higher-quality goods and services without the responsibility to exercise due diligence within a more realistic market of greater variation?).
Now that you seem to have accepted that there's "full socialism," and "not-so-full socialism" (usually defined by who's on the losing side of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"), we could be very close to agreement on this topic. It seems like it's just a matter of discussing how close to "full socialism" we are right now (compared to a traffic sign).
Mark | |
| | | | | | Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: Healthcare said by amigo_boy:Now that you seem to have accepted that there's "full socialism," No, see you equate any government action with socialism. Which is an asinine premise that spouts from a brainwashed individual or one who seeks to spin language to make everything seem relative and thus permissible.
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Come let us reason together. | |
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1 edit | Re: Healthcare said by Combat Chuck:said by amigo_boy:Now that you seem to have accepted that there's "full socialism," No, see you equate any government action with socialism. Which is an asinine premise that spouts from a brainwashed individual or one who seeks to spin language to make everything seem relative and thus permissible. You were the one who used the term "full socialism," implying a recognition of degrees of socialism. Are you retracting that comment, and sticking to your world viewed through absolute lenses? That socialism is either totally practiced, or totally absent?
This is what I meant about people not wanting to have an honest debate. You want to focus on the extremes of traffic signs and total wealth redistribution. You don't want to discuss all the levels of partial redistribution which exist today, and you personally enjoy. Things far more redistributive than a traffic sign. Much closer to government-run healthcare than a traffic sign.
Mark | |
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| | | said by kapil:Your friendly neighborhood congress critter is on its way back home from DC. Please don't forget to write, call, fax, email, visit it and impress upon it the importance of healthcare reform. The future of this nation depends on reforming how we deal with this problem. It's a matter of great urgency and indeed a matter of national security and prosperity. We need health care for all. Without regard to one's ability to pay, one's place on the social hierarchy and existing medical condition. Medical care needs to be the 11th right enshrined in the constitution, guaranteed to all fortunate enough to call this great land their home. Anything less, and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for having failed our fellow citizens. Now's the time. The greatest generation didn't become so by shirking its responsibility. It's now our turn....don't let your country down. Push forward and demand that each and every one of our fellow citizens receive the care they deserve without regard to profit, greedy insurance companies, unethical medical professionals and unscrupulous pharmaceutical companies. It is, in no uncertain terms, now or never. Never. Because what you DEMAND is not feasible due to the costs. What WILL result from your DEMANDS would be a government run health system that will ration healthcare by refusing treatment based on their determination of whether what they would spend on you is worth keeping you alive. So some government Dr.Kevorkian will decide your fate.
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| Government can do a better job, I do not think so. I socialized health care is not an issue healthy and in the twenties but if one get a chronic condition like me or worst then it not so universal when a bureaucrat decide who get treatment or not, not to mention how about mandatory end of life counseling for those over 65. Can one say Soylent Green.
As for cost just look at what happened with the clunker for cars program, it ran out of money in four days, what would the demand for Health care do? | |
| | | Reviews:
·magicjack.com
2 edits | Re: Health care said by Scatcatpdx:it not so universal when a bureaucrat decide who get treatment or not, We already have that. This is why I continually say that most Americans don't realize that our system already is "socialized."
Who sets the rules that the only person who can diagnose illness and treat injury is someone with 8 years of education (instead of 7.5 or 6 years)? It's not the "market of willing buyers and sellers." It's government -- using public law to criminalize lessor-quality goods and services, creating a market of higher quality than a market of willing buyers and sellers would produce.
I'm not arguing for a Darwinistic market of healthcare. But, you need to realize that this existing socialization of the healthcare market comes at someone's expense. When we use legislation to dictate how long an individual must go to school (criminalizing anything less). Or, that every pharmacy must have a pharmacist on site (6 years of education to answer phones, count pills and make change at the register), we make a decision that those who can't afford this quality of treatment are expendable. How can you conclude otherwise when we've criminalized what many Americans can afford?
This is what I honestly don't understand about the Republican party line. They claim to defend "free markets" and promote your ability to choose which treatment you want. But, they're strangely silent about the millions who are denied a choice. It's those millions at the root of demands for reform. Republicans seem to have only one response: the status quo. Turn the "haves" against the "have nots." And then, astonishingly claim it's the Democrats who are playing the class-warfare game.
Mark | |
| | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Health care If there are millions, it should not be an excuse to deprive the Tens of millions who are happy in the private system.
I got problem and denied private insurance, I know of one company that doesn't ask about weight and charges a reasonable price. It beet that the public option under the Government run Oregon Health care plan. You got to like it, some lady was denied chemo under the Oregon Health Care plan but was told there would pay for assisted suicide, we are a state where assisted suicide is legal.
The denial argument is pure bull, I was still able to see a neurologist in three weeks, I was to in Canada I would be lucky if it took 6 months and if I was not denied. | |
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·magicjack.com
2 edits | Re: Health care said by Scatcatpdx:If there are millions, it should not be an excuse to deprive the Tens of millions who are happy in the private system. 1. I agree that our system is based upon the premise that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." But, that's the classic definition of "socialism." You'll rarely hear opponents of reform admit that this is really the root of our existing system, and that it is justified. You just hear them call everyone else a "Marxist twit" for wanting to adjust the balance of the "many" and "few."
2. It's obviously not a "private system" when public law is used to improve your market-based outcomes through elimination (criminalizing) less-desirable products and services (effectively denying a market to those who can afford that banned market).
said by Scatcatpdx:You got to like it, some lady was denied chemo under the Oregon Health Care plan but was told there would pay for assisted suicide, we are a state where assisted suicide is legal. I don't understand the emphasis you place on this when we (society) set medical standards so high that healthcare is unavailable to millions. Even lessor choices which they might be fully willing (and able) to purchase. That is a "social choice to let people die." And, without the humane painlessness of assisted suicide.
I'm not saying I support assisted suicide. Just saying that I don't understand how you can focus on one form of socialized denial of service (which results in death, even clinically assisted) but dismiss another which results in the same thing (without the assistance of a clinic).
The only difference I see is that we (as a society) are acclimated to the latter, dismissing it as "they died because they couldn't afford healthcare products and services" (while ignoring how we, as a society, criminalized the products and services they could afford.
Mark | |
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|  milnoc
join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:1 | When it comes to health care, you Americans are truly screwed up.
Honestly. It's bad enough that a government would allow its own people to die from fully curable diseases. But with you Americans, you want to deny yourselves the tools and regiment that would ensure that every one of you would be guaranteed the necessary medical treatment whenever you needed it!
The garbage I've been hearing on the news for the last few weeks has brought me to the conclusion that your nation suffers from some form of collective mental disorder! But there's no way any of you will be treated for it because your insurance companies will all say it's a pre-existing condition!
Being a Canadian citizen, I know what our *ahem* "socialist" form of health care can accomplish when it gets its act together. I've seen it demonstrated to both myself as well as members of my own family. Whenever any of us needs any medical attention whatsoever, even for very minor aliments, the furthest thing from our minds is whether we can pay for it or not, BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY COVERED! And we're treated unconditionally no matter what our pre-existing conditions may or may not have been!
But you Americans! It's like "Nope! It's socialism! We'd rather die! than touch that stuff," which is usually said by people who are already covered by government run VA and Medicare programs, leaving everyone else who isn't covered to fend for themselves. And even they would rather be saddled with a ton of health care bills than come into contact with an "ism".
You people are idiots. Just die already of your curable diseases. | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
|  deltat2000Timor Omnis AbestoPremium
join:2000-04-13
127.0.0.1 | Obama will run Health Care like they ran the Burr Oaks Cemetary!
He can't fund cash for clunkers with any success, nor keep the computers up!
Think about that when you standing in the ER waiting to see an Nurse or MD...... there won't be one!!
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The Future Is Purchased By The Present! | |
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 Anonymous_AnonymousPremium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2 | hot So hot outside | |
| | Mr FelFlynn LivesPremium
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY | Re: hot Don't forget humid too. | |
| | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Its been 80's or less here all week. Last night it got into the 50's needless to say we opened to windows. | |
| | | | It was so Hot outside my neighbors were giving each other cold stares. | |
|
 OCZThe Former Pocket
join:2009-05-15
Saint Paul, MN | I Got Plans... Got a new grill on Wednesday. I'm having the family over on Saturday to make some burgers, brats, and chicken! I've been dying to try it out.
Hope you all have a good weekend.
BTW, I know all you guys are probably annoyed by this, but do you know any other cool operating system I should try out, I tried all your suggestions, but I want more food on my plate!
Thanks! | |
| |  backfeedis giving feedback
join:2002-12-16
Peru, IN
·Comcast
| Re: I Got Plans... I am waiting for Google to release the Chrome OS.
Looking forward to trying it!
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There are 10 types of people. Those who can read Binary and those who cannot. | |
| | mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | said by OCZ:Got a new grill on Wednesday. BTW, I know all you guys are probably annoyed by this, but do you know any other cool operating system I should try out Happy grilling
Have you tried
GoblinX
SunOS
Slackware
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An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep. | |
|
albie
join:2002-03-17
Decatur, IL
kudos:1 | I Cannot Unplug The weather is ABSOLUTELY beautiful where I am.
I make my livelihood in my home on my computer.
But my day is done and I am in no rush to leave cyberspace.
I just cannot seem to drag myself away from surfing my favorite sites.
This new millenium offers the big choice, cyberspace or the natural world, as I have told you my inclination is toward cyberspace. | |
| |  HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 | Re: I Cannot Unplug holy crap! super-lurker!
albie
Level: 2
Joined: 2002-03-17
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts:19
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I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
|
 dadkinsCan you do Blu?Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18 | TGIF! Have a Great Weekend Everybody!  | |
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See 26 replies to this post | |
| |  MchartFirst There.
join:2004-01-21
Gurnee, IL | Re: The weekend is here at last. What can Intel say?
They need say nothing now that they own almost the entire market.
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THIS IS SPENCER. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED - I HAVE JOE. RETURNING TO BASE. | |
| | | | | Re: The weekend is here at last. That parody is obsolete like the the PowerPC | |
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| | Impressive 3G coverage map! Now that Verizon Wireless has combined there Alltel assets on there map on there website, the coverage is quite impressive!
I even show VZW serice on there network instead of the old Extended network. | |
| |  wifi4milezBig Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY | FROSTY! I will certainly be having a frosty one VERY soon...... | |
| | | | | |  NY TelPremium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3
·AT&T CallVantage
| Re: Still a bachelor.... said by Jeffrey:said by NY Tel:Since Jeffrey was busy removing the chain from his toilet and decided he didn't need to sample some fine brews tonight, I decided to make myself a meal fit for a legend.....  In my own mind at least. I fixed that fucker in about 5 mins before. I was prepared to spend 2 hrs, and it was almost like anti-climatic. Enjoy the rest of the weekend of peace. The meal looks good. I'd choose a different beer, but that's just me. So would I normally but it was the Supermarket special and I was in a hurry. I like to spend a lot of time picking out exotic brews but when I do the bachelor thing, its pretty much no frills...
How did you know the week was peaceful? | |
| | | | | | | | | NY TelPremium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3 Reviews:
·AT&T CallVantage
1 edit | Re: Still a bachelor.... said by Jeffrey:said by NY Tel:How did you know the week was peaceful? Just a hunch. I love it when everyone is away and I get some time to myself. You hit the nail right on the head. I feel like I have had a week of Zen relaxation. I just finished the massive yard cleanup (after those torrential downpours). Just got the call, they are still in Saratoga so I have some more time....
Now I am going food and beverage shopping. | |
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| | Boston Student Ordered to Pay $675,000 for Illegal Music BOSTON – A Boston University student has been ordered to pay $675,000 to four record labels for illegally downloading and sharing music.
Joel Tenenbaum, of Providence, R.I., admitted he downloaded and distributed 30 songs. The only issue for the jury to decide was how much in damages to award the record labels.
See: »news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090731/ap_···nloading for full report. | |
| | HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Boston Student Ordered to Pay $675,000 for Illegal Music damn, that's a lot of cash for 30 song being shared. guess that's another reason that i haven't shared files since way back in the original Napster and Scour days. Usenet for the win.
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I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
| | |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: Boston Student Ordered to Pay $675,000 for Illegal Music Yep. He says if the verdict stands he's going to declare bankruptcy. The only sane thing in this whole insane mess. | |
| | | | | | Re: Boston Student Ordered to Pay $675,000 for Illegal Music said by KrK:Yep. He says if the verdict stands he's going to declare bankruptcy. The only sane thing in this whole insane mess. Not sure why since most judgements survive bankruptcy. | |
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| | 4 More Banks Shut Down by the Feds - 68 this Year! WASHINGTON (AP) -- Regulators on Friday shut down banks in Florida, New Jersey, Ohio and Oklahoma, boosting to 68 the number of federally insured banks to fail this year amid the pressures of the weak economy and mounting loan defaults.
The agency shut down Integrity Bank of Jupiter, Fla., with $119 million in assets and $102 million in deposits, and First BankAmericano, based in Elizabeth, N.J., with $166 million in assets and $157 million in deposits.
Also closed were Peoples Community Bank, West Chester, Ohio, with $705.8 million in assets and $598.2 million in deposits, and First State Bank of Altus, in Altus, Okla., with $103.4 million in assets and $98.2 million in deposits.
See »finance.yahoo.com/news/Regulator···html?x=0 for full report. | |
| | | | HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 | Re: Ken Lee never heard of her or the song. | |
| | |  fatnesssubtleJanitor
join:2000-11-17
fishing
kudos:13 | Re: Ken Lee I guess I should work on making sarcasm more obvious. | |
| | | | HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 | Re: Ken Lee yeah, you're not typing very sarcastically at the moment. | |
| | | |  mr seanProfessional InfidelPremium,ExMod 2001-07
join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia
kudos:1 | Nonsense.
I'm Hungary for more as it is... | |
|
| | LoL Finally got my Lenovo 8Gb flash drive today. Anyone else? | |
| | NY TelPremium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3 Reviews:
·AT&T CallVantage
| Re: LoL said by 45071419:Finally got my Lenovo 8Gb flash drive today. Anyone else? Why and where might we have gotten one of these fine devices? | |
| | | | | Re: LoL said by NY Tel:said by 45071419:Finally got my Lenovo 8Gb flash drive today. Anyone else? Why and where might we have gotten one of these fine devices? It was a deal from Lenovo directly for a Lenovo branded 8Gb USB flash drive. Someone posted the deal and code in the »Users find Hot Deals forum.
The price was between $12-$15 depending on where you lived, no rebates. Mine was $13.98 total, shipped. A lot of peeps ordered end of June, and are just now receiving the drives. | |
| | | | NY TelPremium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
kudos:3 Reviews:
·AT&T CallVantage
| Re: LoL said by 45071419:said by NY Tel:said by 45071419:Finally got my Lenovo 8Gb flash drive today. Anyone else? Why and where might we have gotten one of these fine devices? It was a deal from Lenovo directly for a Lenovo branded 8Gb USB flash drive. Someone posted the deal and code in the » Users find Hot Deals forum. The price was between $12-$15 depending on where you lived, no rebates. Mine was $13.98 total, shipped. A lot of peeps ordered end of June, and are just now receiving the drives. Thanks,
I see now that the deal has expired but I guess I can survive without an 8 gig and slide by for now with my 2 gig and 4 gig separate units.
Thanks | |
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| KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| said by 45071419:Finally got my Lenovo 8Gb flash drive today. Anyone else? I have a UPS Notice on my Door. I was trying to remember what the hell I ordered online THIS time. You just reminded me
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | | Re: LoL said by KrK:said by 45071419:Finally got my Lenovo 8Gb flash drive today. Anyone else? I have a UPS Notice on my Door. I was trying to remember what the hell I ordered online THIS time. You just reminded me Yeah, I was surprised that I had to sign for it. I almost missed it as well.
The drive is pretty cheap, but it's 8Gb and it works. Just dont sit on it! LoL | |
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| | Happy Friday I purpose a toast, may everyone have a great weekend. | |
| | HarddriveProud American and Infidel since 1968.Premium
join:2000-09-20
Phone Room
kudos:2 | Re: Happy Friday i raise my bottle of Sam Adams to you as well. | |
| | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Cheerers dude! I am too young for beer, but coke is good enough for now. | |
| | mrkevinKnowledge comes, but wisdom lingers.Premium
join:2007-08-07
Aurora, ME | CHEERS | |
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| | Have a good one. | |
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Bud Light for IT Admins: Real Men of Genius
Still a bachelor....
