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Comments on news posted 2009-09-29 13:57:28: As the network neutrality circus continues, the editorials continue to dribble out from the nation's largest papers. ..


SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Too bad

to see this, WP is a great newspaper, most of the time.

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 recommendation

Re: Too bad

said by SLD:

to see this, WP is a great newspaper, most of the time.
And even that bastion of left wing thought sees the risks in net neutrality rules screwing things up.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

2 recommendations

Re: Too bad

Actually, it is centrist. It just seems left-wing to you Fox viewers.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Too bad

said by SLD:

Actually, it is centrist. It just seems left-wing to you Fox viewers.
LOL.

If you really want to play that angle, you need to consider this.

FOX News routinely clobbers its competition in the news business. Because they get the most viewers, they become the ideological basis by which other news outlets are judged. If they have the majority of viewers, then by definition they are not some radical fringe media outlet.

On the other hand, newspapers, with their shrinking subscriber counts and continued money troubles, are. If you want to consider the Post in particular, even their own ombudsman states right out that they are biased left and they are quick to jump on conservatives, but slow to find any fault with liberals.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Too bad

All I can say is "Watergate, baby"!

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

Re: Too bad

helpful tip: to avoid getting drawn into this game, click on Ignore User for pnh102.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Too bad

Although I disagree, I kind of liked his creative-viewpoint

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Too bad

said by SLD:

Although I disagree, I kind of liked his creative-viewpoint

With which part do you disagree? That Fox wins the ratings race? That newspapers are suffering a slide in readership? pnh102 is clearly right on both of these points. What's left? Arguing about whether the "mainstream" is where most of the people are, or where some self-appointed media nabobs think it should be?

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Too bad

Uh, how about his most perposterous comment?:

"Because they get the most viewers, they become the ideological basis by which other news outlets are judged. If they have the majority of viewers, then by definition they are not some radical fringe media outlet."

LOL!

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Too bad

OK, so you're arguing about what I said was left--whether the "mainstream" and "fringe" are decided by majority viewership or by self-appointed poo-bahs who adopt a supercilious attitude towards reporting they don't like....

The concept of Democracy must be hell for those who are so sure that they know better than the majority how things should be run....

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Too bad

Who said anything about a democracy? We're in a Constitutional Republic, remember?

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
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Onion, NJ
kudos:1

Re: Too bad

said by SLD:

Who said anything about a democracy? We're in a Constitutional Republic, remember?
Democratic Republic
--
standard disclaimers apply.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

1 edit

Re: Too bad

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states

"A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power.

The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican."

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
Well, obviously the concept of ANY decision based on the people's will, as opposed to determination by your favored elite, is so upsetting that you have to quibble over the terminology of how the people govern themselves.

Either way, it eventually ends up as what the people want, as opposed to what lockstep liberals and their media friends have been pushing for decades.

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Too bad

Actually, quite the opposite. Control of the gov't by the people was finally lost under the term of the Bush administration.
Now we only have the results of corporate influence on "our" representatives. Ever wonder why Congress leans towards the wishes of corporations, even though they cannot vote?

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Too bad

Control of the government by the people was "lost" under the Bush administration? And that's why Bush's party got its pants beaten off by the other party in the next election?

I think you're missing something....

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Too bad

You think so? Do you really believe that your representatives are giving you equal consideration vs. their corporate sponsors - the ones that can't even vote? If so, you're living in quite a dreamy bubble, my friend.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
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Mount Airy, MD
said by morbo:

helpful tip: to avoid getting drawn into this game, click on Ignore User for pnh102.
Yup. Just give up!
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funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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1 recommendation

[ot] FOX News

said by pnh102:

FOX News routinely clobbers its competition in the news business.
Maybe True, as long as you don't count those who get their news on the web, from local broadcast outlets, during the network nightly news, or through social media, and etc.

said by pnh102:

Because they get the most viewers, they become the ideological basis by which other news outlets are judged. If they have the majority of viewers, then by definition they are not some radical fringe media outlet.
That does not follow. They shouldn't be biased toward their audience's politics, they should be biased toward the facts of the story, not trying to make or change the story.

I usually can't stand Fox News because its bias is so severe, it's both offensive and it bends accuracy. But today I read a great Fox News story.
--
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moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: [ot] FOX News

said by funchords:

I usually can't stand Fox News because its bias is so severe, it's both offensive and it bends accuracy.
Oh please, MSNBC needed towels for Keith Olberman and Chris Matthews after Obama was given the Democratic nomination. Even MSNBC pulled them apart after the way they handled the Republican National Convention.

Also, MSNBC ran a story where white racists were at the town hall meetings and showed someone with an AR-15 slung on their back. Too bad it didn't show the whole picture because the guy carrying that weapon was black.

»Re: MSNBC edits clip of man with gun at rally

funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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Re: [ot] FOX News and MSNBC

said by moonpuppy:

said by funchords:

I usually can't stand Fox News because its bias is so severe, it's both offensive and it bends accuracy.
Oh please, MSNBC [...]
... has its own problems, but it doesn't change my concerns with Fox News
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
Talis

join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX

Re: [ot] FOX News

... and that somehow shows that Fox News ISN'T biased?

Fox panders to the right, MSNBC panders to the left. But at least MSNBC doesn't call itself 'fair and balanced' or news. That's what I find most disgusting about Fox - it sells itself as a news channel when it most certainly isn't.

If Fox News would simply own up to being the pandering, sensationalist, tabloid entertainment channel that it is, it would at least get more respect for being honest. As it is, its just a horrificly sad joke, stirring up revolution for ratings.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: [ot] FOX News

said by Talis:

... and that somehow shows that Fox News ISN'T biased?

Fox panders to the right, MSNBC panders to the left. But at least MSNBC doesn't call itself 'fair and balanced' or news. That's what I find most disgusting about Fox - it sells itself as a news channel when it most certainly isn't.

If Fox News would simply own up to being the pandering, sensationalist, tabloid entertainment channel that it is, it would at least get more respect for being honest. As it is, its just a horrificly sad joke, stirring up revolution for ratings.
MSNBC does say "A Fuller Spectrum of News."



The reason people are flocking to Fox News is because they are tired of the BS coming from MSNBC and CNN.

Pot, kettle, you know the rest....
Talis

join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX

Re: [ot] FOX News


I don't presume to know why ANYONE would flock to Fox News, other than to rubberneck.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by moonpuppy:

MSNBC does say "A Fuller Spectrum of News."
You know, I never knew that.

Oh wait, I don't think anyone else did either.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

Re: [ot] FOX News

said by pnh102:

said by moonpuppy:

MSNBC does say "A Fuller Spectrum of News."
You know, I never knew that.

Oh wait, I don't think anyone else did either.
Not only did I not know that but I have reason to believe it.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by funchords:

That does not follow. They shouldn't be biased toward their audience's politics, they should be biased toward the facts of the story, not trying to make or change the story.
Then why is it OK for all the other news outlets to be biased left?

Can you also provide proof that FOX News had widespread problems with news accuracy?
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funchords
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Re: [ot] FOX News

said by pnh102:

Then why is it OK for all the other news outlets to be biased left?
That sounds like the little kid who protests, "But Billy's Mom lets him play at the construction site!"

said by pnh102:

Can you also provide proof that FOX News had widespread problems with news accuracy?
My own observations are what have led to my not watching. No, I didn't keep examples. It's one of those things that occurs over time and the culmination finally offends my sensibilities to the point where the idiot bit has been flipped.

However, you may search for fox news accuracy and you'll get results. The page at »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_C···oversies is exhaustive and highly referenced if you'd like to start there.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
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Jamestown, NC
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Re: Too bad

said by pnh102:

If you really want to play that angle, you need to consider this. FOX News routinely clobbers its competition in the news business.
Fox News clobbers it's competition because they are good at what they do, spin lies as fact to appeal to a conservative base. Add up the viewer on ABC/NBC/CBS and CNN and I doubt Fox News would outnumber them.

I liken it to being the only guy in town who is selling drugs.
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln

funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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1 edit

Re: Too bad

said by Matt3:

Add up the viewer on ABC/NBC/CBS and CNN and I doubt Fox News would outnumber them.
True, by orders of magnitude.

Live + Same Day Cable News Daily Ratings for September 17, 2009

P2+ Total Day
FNC 1,586,000 viewers
CNN 590,000 viewers
MSNBC 454,000 viewers
CNBC 197,000 viewers
HLN 374,000 viewers

P2+ Prime Time
FNC 3,238,000viewers
CNN 1,054,000 viewers
MSNBC 1,123,000 viewers
CNBC 259,000 viewers
HLN 813,000viewers

»tvbythenumbers.com/2009/09/18/ca···09/27686

Total Viewers:
NBC: 7,720,000
ABC: 7,270,000
CBS: 5,540,000

»www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/eve···7114.asp

--
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Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/

Z80
1 point 77
Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika

1 edit
If you want to play that angle, The Post staunchly supported the Iraq War, CAFTA and privatizing so-so security.

They have taken both sides of the political spectrum from time to time unfortunately these traditional media outlets don't seem to understand that they aren't supposed to take sides, ever.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

1 recommendation

said by pnh102:

If you really want to play that angle, you need to consider this.

FOX News routinely clobbers its competition in the news business. Because they get the most viewers, they become the ideological basis by which other news outlets are judged. If they have the majority of viewers, then by definition they are not some radical fringe media outlet.
Hmm... Interesting supposition, but, "not quite".

Your supposition presumes that the news watching public is some constant. That's not really a good assumption. When you have a "product" (it is a business, after all, and it's shaped to provide income rather than "truth") that a specific demographic likes, that demographic will flock to it. That, however, does not mean that the particular demographic in question is representative of a population as a whole.

On the whole, the consuming masses are, for lack of a more elegant term, "stupid" (if they weren't "stupid", the borrowing practices that contributed to the current economic downturn would not have been present). Fox is simply the most effective at catering to that stupidity. The overall commercialized nature of (particularly televised) news has turned most of it into worthless drivel. For people that actually care about what it is they watch or read, news as a business is repellent. Those people increasing drop out of consuming that product and seek their news, elsewhere. So, what you have left is the dregs of the news as a business consumers.

Congratulations: Fox appeals greatly to the dregs.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

•••

credibility

@jillyred.net
said by pnh102:

said by SLD:

Actually, it is centrist. It just seems left-wing to you Fox viewers.
LOL.

If you really want to play that angle, you need to consider this.

FOX News routinely clobbers its competition in the news business. Because they get the most viewers,
Oh, and with Fox having more viewers means the republicans have more credibility? Does this mean the right-wing will win the next presidency?

What does this whole "ohh my network has more viewers than yours" really mean anyway?

They only thing that it shows is that they have more viewers. THAT is all. Nothing more.

rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA

Re: Too bad

Actually, if a network has more viewers, it means they will make more money. That's what really matters. Long gone are the days when news was independent from entertainment. Everything on the air (including via cable and satellite) must be sensational or it will not attract a mass audience. Tabloids still succeed at the supermarket checkout line because they are sensational. The same rule has long applied to TV. Edward R. Murrow may be rolling in his grave, but no one cares.
--
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PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

1 edit
said by pnh102:

...LOL.

If you really want to play that angle, you need to consider this.

FOX News routinely clobbers its competition in the news business. Because they get the most viewers...
...
uh...

Didn't realize sensationalist fear-mongering and actual fact-based news were the same thing.

DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
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Martinsburg, WV
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Suddenlink
said by SLD:

Actually, it is centrist. It just seems left-wing to you Fox viewers.
Dream on.
--
To equate judgment and wisdom with occupation is insulting.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
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Jamestown, NC
kudos:12
said by SLD:

Actually, it is centrist. It just seems left-wing to you Fox viewers.
Doesn't everything?
--
"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" - Abraham Lincoln

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
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Tulsa, OK
Ha.... There's no way this editorial was written by anyone other then a hard core right-wing, most likely management of, a large ISP or Cable Co... probably Cable One....
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
said by SLD:

to see this, WP is a great newspaper, most of the time.
no, the WP hasn't been a great newspaper for some time. the only reason I keep my subscription is I'm an old fart that is addicted to dead tree print in the morning; besides, my wife likes style and metro.

cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
HarperLand

Puppies?

If Net Neutrality Kills Puppies, it also is an evil plot created by osama bin ladin and planned along side the socialists.

Quick everyone hid your kids the Net Neutrality monster is comming.

Z80
1 point 77
Premium
join:2009-08-31
Amerika

1 edit

Journalism is dead in the traditional press.

They simply slant their so called news on the front page and spout endless propaganda in their editorial pages. Then they wonder why circulation is in the toilet.

If people wanted propaganda, they will listen to politicians.

funchords
Hello
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The Comcast case was not resolved between the two companies!

said by Washington Post :

Comcast's blocking an application by BitTorrent that would allow peer-to-peer video sharing. Yet that conflict was ultimately resolved by the two companies -- without FCC intervention --
This is false.

Comcast got BitTorrent Inc. to make cooperative-sounding noises in the middle of the FCC investigation, but BitTorrent Inc. never complained about Comcast. The application vendor who did formally complain was Vuze (makers of Azureus). Comcast's deal with BitTorrent raised the specter of cooperating, but that was just to try to get the FCC off of its back.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia

Network neutrality is a prerequisite of democracy

Where is the so-called "vibrant and well-functioning marketplace"? Not in the USA. Here in the states, even in the better-served areas, we have only a cable monopoly and a telco landline monopoly.

Even if there were competition, neutrality laws would be essential. The fact that discriminatory policies would harm "innovation" is relatively trivial. What's really at stake is public access to information and opinion.

A few big corporations control almost all the newspapers, magazines, radio, movies, book publishing, cable networks, TV shows, and news services. The only access to independent sources is the internet. And without network neutrality, that would vanish. All we would be able to access would be the entertainment and other propaganda that Murdoch, Redstone and other robber-barons would choose to permit us peasants to be exposed to.

funchords
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Re: Network neutrality is a prerequisite of democracy

said by swhx7:

Where is the so-called "vibrant and well-functioning marketplace"? Not in the USA. Here in the states, even in the better-served areas, we have only a cable monopoly and a telco landline monopoly.
You have your choice between beige, off-white, egg shell, and light tan (and two of these are not available in your area).
--
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Test your Broadband connection today! -- »measurementlab.net/
runlevelfour

join:2002-06-12
USA

Left, Center, and Right.

I am always slightly amused and disgusted about the commonly held conceptions of the political spectrum.

The concepts of Left and Right wings historically come from 18th century French Parliament. The Aristocracy whom represented the current order sat on the right of the speaker, and the Commoners (common as in not noble, not common as in poor which is something people need to remember) sat on the left. Obviously there were class contentions as the Aristocracy (the old order) fought the newcomers who wanted change (the new order). Back then the capitalists were the revolutionaries with their laissez-faire ideas, and the Aristocracy was the entrenched reactionaries defending feudalism against those who thought the system was inherently unfair and therefore could not be reformed.

Today the right wing is composed of capitalists (and their supporters) which would include both Democrats and Republicans. The Left is those who want to overthrow the current order (see the pattern?) and establish a new order. These usually are your various varieties of socialism/communism. While the parties may disagree on this or that they have the common purpose of ensuring capitalism (and their class) stays supreme. They will drop their bickering to counter any real threat to the system. Centrists are those who try to 'stay in the middle' but to most Leftists they are viewed as right wingers who want to fend off revolutions by adopting some of the Left's proposed changes... something of a safety valve to appease the masses.

There is a lot of red-baiting and the Democrats like to pose as the 'party of the people' but it really is a clever ruse to trick the populace into thinking they are the alternative when people become fed up with capitalism's excesses. The important distinction between left and right really boils down to if the view supports or damns the current system. Everything else is simply details. As a side note, should real Socialism supplant Capitalism it would be appropriate to call Socialists Right Wing from there on.

••••
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

Hyperbole

Apparently, when a reputable publication publishes a sound and nuanced article that suggests that we not engage in radical, unwise, and unnecessary regulation of the Internet, all Mr. Bode can respond with is pointless hyperbole.

The Washington Post did not say that "net neutrality kills puppies." Rather, it observed -- correctly -- that it is a non-solution to a non-problem. No ISP has ever censored legal content, so pre-emptive regulation (especially the regulation proposed by the FCC, which is not only beyond its legal jurisdiction but also reaches far beyond what would be necessary to prevent anticompetitive behavior) is unnecessary and unwise. It also noted that some things -- such as requirements for transparency -- are worthwhile to allow markets to operate even more effectively than they already do.

Perhaps Karl could have responded to the Post's nuanced critique with a nuanced response of his own. But perhaps this is a bit much to have expected.

Harry Tuttle

@sjk.com

Enough of the Cult membership

Let's drop the left/right, dem/repub, socialist/capitalist, MSNBC/FOX, false dichotomies! Whichever cult you belong to has nothing to do with this issue. Furthermore, I'm tired of opposing opinions being challenged as a "talking point" as a means of discrediting them. If you respect me enough to recognize that I have my own opinions, I will do the same for you.

How about we get rid of the FCC altogether and allow open competition. Doesn't everyone understand yet that we are not just two small laws away from the perfectly regulated system? The world is dynamic and needs to be able to adjust. This is especially true of technology. The scope and complexity of regulations makes it impossible for anyone but the well-connected to compete. Is it any wonder that greed and corruption are rampant? They have been made essential.

Sure, you fear large, powerful organizations (corporations) having too much power over markets if they are doing it for profit. Why don't you then fear large powerful organizations having power over markets when they are called "government" and are doing it for political favors?