BK join:2001-09-10 Chicago, IL |
BK
Member
2010-Jan-7 7:14 pm
very well putGreat article Karl. Don't know if you always get the thanks and appreciation you deserve. thanks! |
|
FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ 1 edit
1 recommendation |
FFH5
Premium Member
2010-Jan-7 7:23 pm
When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?One problem with the electricity metaphor? If carriers want to compare themselves to your local electrical utility, they'd better be ready to have their meters heavily regulated to guarantee accuracy -- just like your electricity meter. Nice claim, but I don't see anyone chking accuracy of my electric meter. I have lived 30 years in my house and NOT ONCE has anyone from a gov't agency verified the accuracy of my electric meter. Anyone else ever see that happen?? P.S.>> or my water meter either. |
|
|
|
The process of meter examination is entirely regulated by the government. How it's measured, when it's measured. Are you trying to pretend this isn't so? |
|
1 recommendation |
to FFH5
And you are the entire universe, are you?
Why do you always stick up for the corporations in these stories? |
|
McSummationMmmm, Zeebas Are Tastee. Premium Member join:2003-08-13 Fort Worth, TX |
meter in my machineI've been using BWMeter for several months, just so I can see what my internet usage is. If AT&T starts metering, I'll have another piece of software looking at my DSL line besides AT&T. |
|
|
to EdmundGerber
Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?I have a friend that works in electric meter inspection. At least here in Ontario, electric meters are individually tested and certified by a department of the local utility. Any customer can request their meter to be tested and/or replaced. Accuracy is taken very seriously, and both the provincial and federal governments have oversight roles in the matter. |
|
|
FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ 4 edits |
to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:The process of meter examination is entirely regulated by the government. How it's measured, when it's measured. Are you trying to pretend this isn't so? I am saying that that regulation is not actually enforced to any degree at all for residences. Maybe for gas stations, businesses, etc. You accept what the electric co. says you are being billed is accurate - UNLESS YOU COMPLAIN. And I suspect that any cable usage metering will work the same way. Even when the electric meter is tested, error is allowed up to 2% and the testing is done by the utility and ONLY WITNESSED by the state. Comcast, for example, has already tested their meter and the margin of error was much less than 2%. » netforecast.com/document ··· racy.pdfComcasts stated goal is that the usage meter correctly reflect traffic passing through a subscriber's cable modem within plus-or-minus 1.0% accuracy over the month. Our analysis validates that the accuracy of the Comcast meter for subscribers served by the Cisco 10000 CMTS is within plus-or-minus 0.5% over the month, well within Comcasts stated goal. And does anyone seriously think some state regulator is going to dispute the companies claims of accuracy when provided with the testing info done by an independent 3rd party? |
|
SpaethCoDigital Plumber MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
1 recommendation |
"Who'll confirm this?"How about the subscribers of the ISPs themselves? Come on, the people who subscribe to ISPs are not idiots. Meters are now a common part of residential grade NAT/Router devices, and many free software options exist. Not only that, but unlike their electric meters, ISP subscribers don't need to risk electrocution to install a meter of their own. said by Karl Bode:Are there laws protecting consumers from abuse? Nope. Right. If you collected evidence that ISP meters were substantially incorrect I'm sure the attorney general of your state of residence would simply ignore bringing any kind of unfair billing practices lawsuit against the ISP. Get real. The people who take up that office get a hard on over the idea of prosecuting companies for that sort of thing. |
|
maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
to FFH5
Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?said by FFH5:One problem with the electricity metaphor? If carriers want to compare themselves to your local electrical utility, they'd better be ready to have their meters heavily regulated to guarantee accuracy -- just like your electricity meter. Nice claim, but I don't see anyone chking accuracy of my electric meter. I have lived 30 years in my house and NOT ONCE has anyone from a gov't agency verified the accuracy of my electric meter. Anyone else ever see that happen?? P.S.>> or my water meter either. They don't actually come to your house. The electricity company changes the meters every so often and when they place an order of say..... 4,000 meters of a certain kind, that will be replaced at a certain time, government regulaters take a random amount of meters from random batches of meters being delivered, e.g. they take 27 out of the 4,000 and test them for accuracy in their lab. If it turns out a certain percentage of the meters are not accurate (in EITHER direction, they don't want the customers to pay less either), they can start a system wide random test of that type of meter. If too many discrepancies are found, they can force the utility company to test every meter before they go out. That you haven't had a visit of the government doesn't mean a thing. In 30 years you probably DID have the electricity company change out your meter and that replaced meter was most likely part of a random test. It would be far too costly to test meters across town. Since electricity meters are replaced on a regular basis, it is much more cost effective to ensure any new meters being installed are correct, instead of testing all meters in town. Testing the accuracy of a ISP meter is a lot easier, and can be done from anywhere. |
|
jlivingood Premium Member join:2007-10-28 Philadelphia, PA 1 edit |
Hmmm....Karl wrote: Comcast recently unveiled their new meter in Portland, using a firm of their choice to determine it's accuracy. The firm they hired, of course, proclaimed proudly that the meter was accurate to within 0.5% each month.
Who'll confirm this? Nobody. While I can understand the generalities of your story*, the specific ding against how Comcast released the meter seems unjustified. In an environment where an ISP could simply release a meter, it seems an objectively good thing that we used an independent party to audit the meter, that we had them share a report on the matter, and that they fully described how the system functioned and how they tested it. If you question their independence or background, which I think is unfounded, you can find out who they are here: » netforecast.com/ContactI ··· eset.htmScott Bradner - » netforecast.com/biograph ··· r%20.htmRebecca Wetzel - » netforecast.com/biograph ··· l%20.htmJohn Bartlett - » netforecast.com/biograph ··· lett.htmPeter Sevcik - » netforecast.com/biograph ··· %20S.htmYou can see their client list here: » netforecast.com/ClientFr ··· eset.htmAnd I can tell you they were highly recommended by members of the Internet community. Jason -- JL Comcast* I think it is completely fair to ask how you can stand behind a meter and is it accurate. And for that reason, I think the basics of your story prompt a worthwhile discussion. When we planned the meter, I thought that it'd be the case that the question of proving its accuracy would logically be raised and so I suggested having a 3rd party audit it and - further - share the results of that with our customers and the public. |
|
FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ 1 edit |
to maartena
Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?My meter was never replaced in 30 yrs of service. But see my later post in this thread for more explanation of my position. » Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't? |
|
|
JasonOD
Anon
2010-Jan-7 7:54 pm
Not worth it........Between the normal modem/head end chatter making it just too hard to measure, and page adspace (much of it high bitrate) users don't want, ask for, and have no control over, measuring down to the byte just isn't worth the trouble.
ISP's could create multi-GB zones, by which could more readily be measured, and bill users according to the 'zone' their usage has landed them in. I realize there would have to be a fine line between these 'zones', but it wouldn't seem to be nearly as messy a billing by the byte.
Just a thought. |
|
nishiko7 Premium Member join:2007-05-01 Pleasant Hill, CA |
to McSummation
Re: meter in my machinesaid by McSummation:I've been using BWMeter for several months... Thanks for making me (and others aware of BWMeter. Looks great, but it's also $30. I've been using Networx (» download.cnet.com/NetWor ··· 904.html) for about 6 months now (somone else on DSLR recommended (in the comments like this) once). I'm VERY happy with it. Just like with BWMeter, you can network other computers to get a better sense on your total network usage. BW Meter looks like it may be a bit more advanced, but for the price difference, I think many would be happy with Networx. If you are, you might consider throwing them a small bone, like we should for all great "free" software we use a lot to help support it. Ideally, it is best to have this functionality on your router, but that's not always practical or convenient or cost effective. So this method is a second best way to get a read on your bandwidth usage. Of course, with all the individual non-pc devices being added to networks these days, this second pc by pc method will only give you a general read, but most non-pc devices also don't consume much bandwidth, so in most cases, this will be good enough. |
|
88615298 (banned) join:2004-07-28 West Tenness |
to FFH5
Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?said by FFH5:One problem with the electricity metaphor? If carriers want to compare themselves to your local electrical utility, they'd better be ready to have their meters heavily regulated to guarantee accuracy -- just like your electricity meter. Nice claim, but I don't see anyone chking accuracy of my electric meter. I have lived 30 years in my house and NOT ONCE has anyone from a gov't agency verified the accuracy of my electric meter. Anyone else ever see that happen?? P.S.>> or my water meter either. Well how about this argument. Electric companies are regulated by the governemnt. So if ISPs wish to comapre themsleves to utilites surely they won't mind being regulated like one. but of course they would. They want their cake and eat it to and they can't. |
|
FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2010-Jan-7 8:04 pm
said by 88615298:said by FFH5:One problem with the electricity metaphor? If carriers want to compare themselves to your local electrical utility, they'd better be ready to have their meters heavily regulated to guarantee accuracy -- just like your electricity meter. Nice claim, but I don't see anyone chking accuracy of my electric meter. I have lived 30 years in my house and NOT ONCE has anyone from a gov't agency verified the accuracy of my electric meter. Anyone else ever see that happen?? P.S.>> or my water meter either. Well how about this argument. Electric companies are regulated by the governemnt. So if ISPs wish to comapre themsleves to utilites surely they won't mind being regulated like one. but of course they would. They want their cake and eat it to and they can't. Cable companies are regulated 6 ways from Sunday. By state & local boards and by the FCC. |
|
nishiko7 Premium Member join:2007-05-01 Pleasant Hill, CA
1 recommendation |
to jlivingood
Re: Hmmm....@jlivingood
Thanks for the input. It appears perhaps Comcast is taking it very seriously and is trying to be fair about it, and if so, that's much appreciated by all their customers no doubt. |
|
88615298 (banned) join:2004-07-28 West Tenness |
to SpaethCo
Re: "Who'll confirm this?"said by SpaethCo:How about the subscribers of the ISPs themselves? Come on, the people who subscribe to ISPs are not idiots. Meters are now a common part of residential grade NAT/Router devices, and many free software options exist. Not only that, but unlike their electric meters, ISP subscribers don't need to risk electrocution to install a meter of their own. said by Karl Bode:Are there laws protecting consumers from abuse? Nope. Right. If you collected evidence that ISP meters were substantially incorrect I'm sure the attorney general of your state of residence would simply ignore bringing any kind of unfair billing practices lawsuit against the ISP. Get real. The people who take up that office get a hard on over the idea of prosecuting companies for that sort of thing. You mean how the government has slapped Verizon hard about charging $1.99 for non-existant data useage? Oh wait they didn't anything about that. |
|
nishiko7 Premium Member join:2007-05-01 Pleasant Hill, CA |
to BK
Re: very well putsaid by BK:Great article Karl. Don't know if you always get the thanks and appreciation you deserve. thanks! I second that! Karl you are pretty much in idol territory to me. I LOVE the way you word articles. Hard hitting, good stuff. BBR is my favorite web destination, and you are the biggest part of that! The pro-consumer cause you and others like StopTheCap are leading cannot be held in high enough regard in my book. Keep up the great job (please)!! |
|
SpaethCoDigital Plumber MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN |
to 88615298
Re: "Who'll confirm this?"said by 88615298:You mean how the government has slapped Verizon hard about charging $1.99 for non-existant data useage? Oh wait they didn't anything about that. The FCC started an inquiry in December. Don't think some state's Attorney General isn't drawing up a game plan to get in that fight - it's only a matter of time. |
|
SkullBot join:2003-05-07 Huntington Beach, CA |
ProblemSo with all the flash and java heavy advertising on websites these days, plus updates for programs, windows, antivirus software, these thing are counted against the cap. I find that very wrong on many levels, I should not have to deal with advertising and spam if these caps are put in place, say that I get infected with a virus that forces me to format and reload, I only have a copy of windows with SP2, so now I have to download a ton of updates for both windows and any security software I put on, this all counts against the cap, now to compound this, say the cap is 250GB, now not only am I supposed to keep track of how much I use, I can potentially go over the cap just doing routine system maintenance, this problem gets bigger if i have to do this on more then one computer.
My point is, capping just screams of the early 90's bill by the minute model, with all the WIFI things that are coming out, bandwidth usage will continue to go up, not to mention the problem with these ads getting bigger and more intrusive, these are all counted against the cap and I haven't even touched on anything else that can gobble up bandwidth. |
|
88615298 (banned) join:2004-07-28 West Tenness |
to FFH5
Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?said by FFH5:Cable companies are regulated 6 ways from Sunday. By state & local boards and by the FCC. A) no they don't. Cable was deregulated back in the 1980's trust me I'm old enough to remember. If cable was REALLY regulated your cable bill would be at least 1/3 lower than it is now. B) That has ZERO to do with internet access. What little regulation cable companies have is on the TV side not the internet side. Once again while the local franchise authority may tell the cable company where they must offer service they can't tell them where to offer internet service. |
|
88615298 |
to SpaethCo
Re: "Who'll confirm this?"said by SpaethCo:said by 88615298:You mean how the government has slapped Verizon hard about charging $1.99 for non-existant data useage? Oh wait they didn't anything about that. The FCC started an inquiry in December. Don't think some state's Attorney General isn't drawing up a game plan to get in that fight - it's only a matter of time. inquiry that will take months or years. Meanwhile Verizon keeps raking it in. So if these meters are mesed up how long are customers going to be screwed over while the governemnt "inquires"? |
|
88615298 |
to SkullBot
Re: ProblemI can find plenty of reasons against this but too many flash ads is bullshit. There is not way one could view that many ads that it would make a significant inpact on your cap. Also you can turn flash OFF. |
|
3 recommendations |
to FFH5
Re: When was last time your electric meter chkd by gov't?The tests are standardized tests that comply with ASTM or UL standards. It's easy for regulatory agencies (federal or state) to verify compliance with these testing procedures as they are heavily documented. said by FFH5:And does anyone seriously think some state regulator is going to dispute the companies claims of accuracy when provided with the testing info done by an independent 3rd party? The point which as typical you ignored was that there is no regulatory framework. So your little straw man is easy to argue, of course no regulator would care as there isn't a regulator. If someone is going to bill you per amount and they are using meters to do so there should be regulation in place to make sure that measurement is fair and accurate. Otherwise consumers have no guarantee of accuracy. Statements made by Comcast that the system is accurate are meaningless because there hasn't been any independent verification that anything they have said is accurate. In fact their system could be completely arbitrary without connection to reality and no one would know. The testing they had done was not independent, it was a paid promotion by an consultant without certification or standard testing, which is worthless in my eyes. When I pump gas I know the meter on my gas pump is checked at least once a year for accuracy. I know my electrical meter is rated and certified by UL laboratories to be accurate within reasonable tolerances. I know my gas meter has similar testing and certification before it was ever placed into service. And above all, I know that if I suspect these meters to be inaccurate I don't have to launch a lawsuit, I can challenge the accuracy within the regulatory framework and the company will be forced to prove the accuracy to the regulatory authorities and I can be certain an independent person without financial incentive has verified the accuracy. That's the difference. Until there is regulation in place to make sure it's accurate it's not going to be trustworthy. This is hard to measure, and it's even harder for shared pipes like cable. I suspect that it won't be long after these types of systems are implemented before class action lawsuits launch and lawyers make a lot of money proving the systems aren't accurate because their is no independent certification. Regulation is a good thing for everyone involved. It helps the consumers by providing outlets for complaint and it protects the business. Only a fool would argue regulation is bad. |
|
2 recommendations |
to FFH5
You accept what the electric co. says you are being billed is accurate - UNLESS YOU COMPLAIN. And the consumer who complains is supported by what? Government regulation of the meters to guarantee equity. Your argument that you haven't had a government goon in a cheap suit squat over your Virginia meter is disingenuous and you know it... |
|
|
to FFH5
And you have stood outside and watched that meter to make sure the company didn't come out and replace it some afternoon you weren't home with one that looked just like it? Or do you honestly think you would notice if they replaced it or that a newer one would look any different than the one currently there?
Let me guess you painted it pink so you would know if they replaced it? |
|
maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
to FFH5
said by FFH5:Cable companies are regulated 6 ways from Sunday. By state & local boards and by the FCC. There may be some regulations on what cable companies can carry as TV networks, and what not.... whether analog signals should be available or not, etc, etc.... But NONE, ZERO of those regulations have anything to do with internet connectivity. (Or phone connectivity for that matter). |
|
FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ 3 edits |
to rahvin112
said by rahvin112:And you have stood outside and watched that meter to make sure the company didn't come out and replace it some afternoon you weren't home with one that looked just like it? Or do you honestly think you would notice if they replaced it or that a newer one would look any different than the one currently there? Let me guess you painted it pink so you would know if they replaced it? It has a serial number on it which is also on the monthly bill. And if they disconnected the meter while I wasn't home, all the clocks in the house would have been blinking. Besides the meter casing was painted to match the color of the siding on the house. If they replaced it it would be obvious. P.S.>> the electric company wouldn't replace the meter without notifying you. And if they did, the monthly reading number would have restarted an a new lower number. |
|
maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
to McSummation
Re: meter in my machinesaid by McSummation:I've been using BWMeter for several months This may work for a modem with 1 PC. If you have more then one PC in the house, and those PC's also communicate with each other (think shared printing, files etc) BWmeter pretty much becomes useless. |
|
|
Several problems.1. Moving to usage based billing doesnt actually make it cheaper for the light users. They are still paying a flat-fee for a service by definition they dont use. Furthermore the move from plain unlimited flat fee to extremely low cap; actually serves no actual savings.
2. They have no reason to put a stop to any sort of flood traffic. For example; as the ISP I can take my list of people with a cap of 2 gigs and flood ping them all month. 1mbit upload speed could cap out dozens of people within a month. Too which only means more money for that ISP. It doesnt even matter what traffic it is.
So what you do as an ISP. Setup a 1gigabit connection to basically flood your entire ip space. You just made tons and tons of cash.
Or simply have inaccurate meters.
3. They have been regulated; or rather forced to provide wholesale competition at price X; without forcing your competition in the same usage based billing, free market corrects itself. Except with so little competition in Canada... they can get away with charging just about any price they want. As who can actually live without the internet? |
|