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Comments on news posted 2010-03-01 14:09:59: Every few months we'll see a story where a user receives a roaming bandwidth bill that requires a second mortgage, because they didn't understand how much wireless data they were consuming. ..

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jus10
join:2009-08-04
Gainesville, VA

jus10

Member

Nifty

That's ... brilliant.

Can we just Xerox the law on the west side of the pond and get that dropped into our service? It makes perfect sense.

SSX4life
Hello World
Premium Member
join:2004-02-13

1 edit

2 recommendations

SSX4life

Premium Member

Data is not scarce

Any time you make data scarce you can treat it as a commodity. Look.... the data boogie man isn't going to jump out and gobble up all the 1's and 0's from a network.

Stop charging more for the same crap 5 years ago. We all know you are doing it to line your pockets and NOT upgrade your network.


fonzbear2000
Premium Member
join:2005-08-09
Saint Paul, MN
·Verizon Wireless

fonzbear2000 to jus10

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to jus10

Re: Nifty

said by jus10:

That's ... brilliant.

Can we just Xerox the law on the west side of the pond and get that dropped into our service? It makes perfect sense.
I totally agree.

J E F F4
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON

J E F F4 to jus10

Premium Member

to jus10
said by jus10:

That's ... brilliant.

Can we just Xerox the law on the west side of the pond and get that dropped into our service? It makes perfect sense.
Agreed! Though I have never had issues, I would hate to see what happens if an accident occured..like your kids getting a hold of the phone.

burgerwars
join:2004-09-11
Northridge, CA

burgerwars to jus10

Member

to jus10
It makes sense, but who knows if the providers here will relent on such restrictions saying it's too much "government regulation." They prefer to let the meter run when a poor unknowing sole is roaming while watching streaming video of their favorite movies. Then they'll bill them broke claiming the customer owes them more money than their mortgage. They'll clean out the customer by getting what money they can.

This is what they call "capitalism."
cghh
join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA

1 edit

cghh

Member

Real-time checks possible?

I don't know if the following point is still relevant, but in the past anyway, the argument U.S. providers (the CDMA ones, anyway) made against real-time data limits was that roaming partners submitted their bills to the caller's provider in batch mode, sometimes up to 30 days after the charge was incurred. So your provider doesn't know you have gone over until long after the charge was incurred. The situation may well be different in the EU, given the tight integration of roaming in GSM networks.
fiberguy2
My views are my own.
Premium Member
join:2005-05-20

1 recommendation

fiberguy2 to SSX4life

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to SSX4life

Re: Data is not scarce

Wireless data isn't scarce?

That's a good thing to know... so if that's the case, let's roll it out to everyone.. then lets see how scarce it is.

The fact remains, wireless data capacity still needs to be expanded. The problem right now is that it's still an under supplied network - same as wireless voice back in the late 80's early 90's. There is a reason why wireless charges so much for voice minutes and overages.. If not, everyone would simply jump on to the wireless networks and over load them.

Wireless communications still remains a luxury as it stands. The ONLY way to control this kind of a service is to put a fee on certain use - just as they do wireless. There is a reason why there are nights and weekend rates that are often less or free. It's becuase the network is used FAR less on those rate times so more people can use them. (Ie: the business world generally drops off at 5pm leaving more room for personal users)

The wireless internet, which to be honest largely didn't exist 5 years ago, has become far more advanced than what it used to be AND far less expensive. Not to mention, those 1's and 0's are still 1's and 0's.. there are just more of them being moved across the lines.

There is still room for them to grow.. they do need to upgrade and prices will continue to drop as access continues to expand.

They ARE expanding their networks.. they aren't simply lining their pockets.. not sure where you're coming up with that notion. Sounds more like a rant than anything factual to be honest.
fiberguy2

fiberguy2 to cghh

Premium Member

to cghh

Re: Real-time checks possible?

I like the fact they're allowing you to cap your use.. but they've always been able to do this.

It's always been simple for them to simply send notices to you letting you know you're coming close to your monthly limits. They can and have done it with the voice side.

Further, since the weak link seems to be on roaming, maybe users should simply have the ability to stop roaming on other networks like you can your cell phone.

Additionally, they need to stop acting like roaming is any different than voice.. it's not. Users from various networks roam.. Provider A has users that roam on Provider B, and the same in reverse... I don't see what the big deal is.

Not to mention, when it comes to roaming, the hardware should be able to tell you this information anyway.. you shouldn't need the provider's network or email servers to tell the end user of this information.

SSX4life
Hello World
Premium Member
join:2004-02-13

1 recommendation

SSX4life to fiberguy2

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to fiberguy2

Re: Data is not scarce

said by fiberguy2:

They ARE expanding their networks.. they aren't simply lining their pockets.. not sure where you're coming up with that notion. Sounds more like a rant than anything factual to be honest.
I don't want to get into a battle of wits here so lets lay some ground rules shall we?

#1. yes there are more bits flying across networks now than there were 10 or even 5 years ago

#2. Yes there is still room to grow

#3. Yes more individuals have access to wireless internet or data plans than ever before

however.....

#4. Carriers haven't upgraded their networks to keep up with demand like they should have (or continue to have). This has been documented many times before

#5. Remember the early 90's when the ISP's and wireless carriers got a big chunk of money from the fed to upgrade their network(s) but instead decided to turn tail and just pocket the cash? yea..

Ok your turn =) Yes I agree with you on principal, but come on now. Please realize that they have in the past tried to squeeze blood from a turnip (consumers) by making something appear to be scarce.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

1 recommendation

Noah Vail

Premium Member

a A A A G G G H H H H ! ! !

THIS IS GOING TO BANKRUPT EVERY WIRELESS CARRIER ON EARTH. THIS IS PRO-CONSUMERISM RUN AMOK. IT MUST STOPPED IMMEDIATELY.

NO, I DON'T KNOW WHY I AM TYPING IN CAPS. MAYBE I THINK THIS IS A TELEGRAM AND SHOULD *STOP*

nv

SSX4life
Hello World
Premium Member
join:2004-02-13

1 edit

2 recommendations

SSX4life

Premium Member

- .... .. ... .. ... --. --- .. -. --. - --- -... .- -. -.- .-. ..- .--. - . ...- . .-. -.-- .-- .. .-. . .-.. . ... ... -.-. .- .-. .-. .. . .-. --- -. . .- .-. - .... .-.-.- - .... .. ... .. ... .--. .-. --- -.-. --- -. ... ..- -- . .-. .. ... -- .-. ..- -. .- -- --- -.- .-.-.- .. - -- ..- ... - ... - --- .--. .--. . -.. .. -- -- . -.. .. .- - . .-.. -.-- .-.-.-

-. --- --..-- .. -.. --- -. - -.- -. --- .-- .-- .... -.-- .. .- -- - -.-- .--. .. -. --. .. -. -.-. .- .--. ... .-.-.- -- .- -.-- -... . .. - .... .. -. -.- - .... .. ... .. ... .- - . .-.. . --. .-. .- -- .- -. -.. ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. ... - --- .--.

-. ...-

**edit**
in case you were wondering,that's the morris code of your telegraph.
=)

Lark3po
Premium Member
join:2003-08-05
Madison, AL

Lark3po

Premium Member

Pretty!

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to fiberguy2

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to fiberguy2

Re: Real-time checks possible?

said by fiberguy2:

Further, since the weak link seems to be on roaming, maybe users should simply have the ability to stop roaming on other networks like you can your cell phone.
I can turn off data roaming on my Sprint Palm Pre phone.
FFH5

FFH5 to SSX4life

Premium Member

to SSX4life

Re: a A A A G G G H H H H ! ! !

said by SSX4life:

- .... .. ... .. ... --. --- .. -. --. - --- -... .- -. -.- .-. ..- .--. - . ...- . .-. -.-- .-- .. .-. . .-.. . ... ... -.-. .- .-. .-. .. . .-. --- -. . .- .-. - .... .-.-.- - .... .. ... .. ... .--. .-. --- -.-. --- -. ... ..- -- . .-. .. ... -- .-. ..- -. .- -- --- -.- .-.-.- .. - -- ..- ... - ... - --- .--. .--. . -.. .. -- -- . -.. .. .- - . .-.. -.-- .-.-.-

-. --- --..-- .. -.. --- -. - -.- -. --- .-- .-- .... -.-- .. .- -- - -.-- .--. .. -. --. .. -. -.-. .- .--. ... .-.-.- -- .- -.-- -... . .. - .... .. -. -.- - .... .. ... .. ... .- - . .-.. . --. .-. .- -- .- -. -.. ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. ... - --- .--.

-. ...-

**edit**
in case you were wondering,that's the morris code of your telegraph.
=)
Are you referring to morse code? And not morris code?
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Common sense from the EU?

Has hell frozen over? An actual bill to help protect the consumer from the greed of the carriers who bill the overage at a higher rate than the normal data plan?

What they've always needed to do is convert them into units, so if their bs limit is 10gb, and you charge $30 for 10gb, if they use 20gb charge them $60... If they use 15gb charge them $45.. However then they wouldn't need to charge $30 up front... just $3 per 1gb without charging them for data in the first place.

or... just actually provide two plans, unlimited data, and metered for the lower use users. At one point if the data charges exceed $60 they are unlimited for the rest of the month.

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

3 recommendations

TechyDad to FFH5

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to FFH5

Re: a A A A G G G H H H H ! ! !

I think he is. The Morris Code would be: Meow Meow Meow Meow. Meow Meow Meow Meow. Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow Meow.
NeoandGeo
join:2003-05-10
Harrison, TN

NeoandGeo to burgerwars

Member

to burgerwars

Re: Nifty

300 million poor
5 million rich

Bill Neilson
Premium Member
join:2009-07-08
Alexandria, VA

1 edit

Bill Neilson

Premium Member

Something so simple, so useful, and so needed

will probably never see the light of day here.

Some will scream the government lifting a finger on something, anything will kill babies, murder puppies, and stop the earth from spinning

And to top it off, I doubt any carrier, big or small, will want something like this put in. Why take away from their revenue wherever it comes from legal, illegal, or legal yet morally pathetic? Even if it does involve not allowing them to screw the customer?
nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX

nevtxjustin to jus10

Member

to jus10

Re: Nifty

said by jus10:

Can we just Xerox
No, because Xerox will git their panties in a wad for improper use of a trademarked name. But you can "photocopy" it. heh heh heh

Fox McCloud
Crazy like a fox.
join:2006-07-23

Fox McCloud

Member

I'll be the odd one out

And completely disagree with this legislation. Not a popular opinion here, for sure, and one that will, no doubt, be criticized. Heck, it'll probably get me labeled as some evil Capitalist or corporate whore...something to that effect....but in any case.

I disagree with this law on principle, mainly based on private property rights and contractual agreements.

never the less, I see the whole mess with telecom in a slightly different way that a lot of people. *shrugs*.

just my 2 cents.

sapo
Cruising Down Memory Lane
Premium Member
join:2002-09-16
Sacramento, CA

sapo to nevtxjustin

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to nevtxjustin

Re: Nifty

Why would Xerox complain about free marketing.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

1 recommendation

funchords to Fox McCloud

MVM

to Fox McCloud

Re: I'll be the odd one out

said by Fox McCloud:

I disagree with this law on principle, mainly based on private property rights and contractual agreements.
These are public airwaves that are licensed for use under "reasonable charges" conditions.

If you protest, protest because the regulator isn't doing its job in enforcing reasonable charges and instead is throwing in the towel and capping the total of outrageous fees, instead.
nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX

nevtxjustin to sapo

Member

to sapo

Re: Nifty

Good question...Why should the RIAA complain about free advertising of a song when used in a supermarket as background music.
Desdinova
Premium Member
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD

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to SSX4life

Re: a A A A G G G H H H H ! ! !

Ah yes, analog binary! But since we're discussing not purchasing too much bandwidth, maybe we should call it "Buy Nary"!

yongar
join:2000-12-08
Virginia Beach, VA

yongar to funchords

Member

to funchords

Re: I'll be the odd one out

very well put instead of bashing comment.
munky99999
Munky
join:2004-04-10
canada

munky99999

Member

Carrier rage!

We all know that the carriers could have done this from the get go. They didnt because they WANT the insanely priced data plans that people are inevitably going to go over, unless they simply dont use the product.

So you have 2 kinds of customers.

Those who are paying you top dollar for no product in return.
Those who are paying bills which require you to be getting golden parachutes from the federal government; monthly.

Eliminating the later doesnt fix the underlying problem of outrageously price gouged data costs.

Regulating the data costs toward the actual cost plus very comfortable profit margin. This fixes the problem.

EU hasnt done this because they are being lobbied by the carriers so as not to ruin their cash cow.
fiberguy2
My views are my own.
Premium Member
join:2005-05-20

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to SSX4life

Re: Data is not scarce

I don't do debate rules.. I stick to facts. Debate rules are what presidential candidates use and you can see where that gets us, right?

Carries are updating their networks - that's pretty obvious. Are they keeping up with demand? Maybe not, but demand is also outpacing the upgrades. Demand can easily out-pace physical system upgrades AND available technology. Right now, I don't blame them for not wanting to do TOO much as new technology is around the corner. People forget this little fact many times.

If you want a carrier to upgrade capacity at current technology simply to expand capacity when new tech is around the corner, you're going to not see a drop in rates, rather, you're going to see rates hold or go up. This argument is used many times for cable. People don't understand why the DOCSIS 1.1 carriers aren't upping to 2 when 3 was right on the horizon.. it makes no sense.

And, back in the 90's.... that's 10 years ago, but okay.. networks were upgraded.. were they not? I think since then, many phone providers have upgraded their networks... many have expanded DSL access with remote terminals.. att is launching uverse.. verizon is dropping Fiber... cable has dramatically upgraded their networks... so how do you not account for that? Cellular companies most definitely have upgraded their networks as well.. why do you think we have unlimited calling plans now? Those started out at about $100 a month and are now down to $69 a month with seconds lines at $45 Those price drops are a sign of increased capacity. Cellular companies price their rates based on what the system can handle as well as market place prices.

I'm sorry to say this, but the truth is the truth.. they can't simply expand access all over the place and give people all they can use right now becuase people will go nuts and use more than they really need which in itself creates over loaded networks. Anytime a metered plan goes to unlimited, people will gobble it up and not care what they use and how they use it.. so we're not even there yet. If that's a sign of not enough capacity, then I'm sorry.. but it's the truth. We've been here many times.

I still don't see how you've not seen upgrades.. just becuase you don't get the published reports doens't mean they're not being done, becuase they have.

I think you're looking at this from a very narrow perspective of a "consumer" who just doesn't see it the way you want to...

The most simple of facts I can give you is that cellular use has exploded in the last 10 years.. if they have not increased capacity in 10 years, do you think that the industry would be able to keep up with the explosion of use? no... think about it.

And, data.. there is still an issue of ROAMING at large here.. and that's never going to change for a long time.. networks don't have "nationwide coverage" of their own.. they have sharing agreements.. that makes up the illusion of a "nationwide network".. still, they're buying and trading time from one network to another.. unless and until they have true nationwide coverage, which would honestly be a complete waste of money, you're going to run into snags from time to time.

I'm sorry to say this.. but when I read and try to "listen" to your post, it reminds me of my mother and her car when ever it breaks down, or she simply wants to use it, she thinks that "it should just work when ever, and where ever she wants it to"... and that's just a reality of life that isn't.
fiberguy2

fiberguy2 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5

Re: Real-time checks possible?

Yup... can do that on my phones as well... but, I can say that I'm not sure I can do that on my MiFi from Sprint.. and I think that gets a lot of people in trouble as well.

ReformCRTC
Support Your Independent ISP
join:2004-03-07
Canada

ReformCRTC to Fox McCloud

Member

to Fox McCloud

Re: I'll be the odd one out

Stop being a corporatist.

sapo
Cruising Down Memory Lane
Premium Member
join:2002-09-16
Sacramento, CA

1 edit

sapo to nevtxjustin

Premium Member

to nevtxjustin

Re: Nifty

Not even close to the same thing. A company representing another companies work is much different compared to a companies name being used in a generic manner. Another relevant example would be saying Kleenex instead of tissues.

Anyway, this is basic stuff that even wiki has info for. Here is a list of goods that are no longer legally like protected like Xerox and Kleenex.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li ··· ademarks
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