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Comments on news posted 2010-03-16 15:51:15: Some 36 public workshops, 9 field hearings, and 31 public notices later, the FCC today finally unveiled their national broadband plan (pdf). ..
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 | | Money in Politics Yes, the plan fails to address the role of money in politics. In particular, it fails to address the influence that Google has bought in Washington -- influence that has allowed the company to push for onerous, unnecessary "network neutrality" regulations that could in fact derail the goals stated in the plan. (Google has ensured that it would be, conveniently, exempted from these regulations, even though it has a fiber backbone rivaling those of the largest ISPs.) | |
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1 edit | Re: Money in Politics Yeah yeah Blah blah blah Google blah blah evil blah blah
You conveniently neglect to mention the flip side - that you and your kind are guilty of the same thing.
As a consumer, if I have to choose lesser of two "evils", I'd certainly choose Google. | |
| |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Most your problems would be solved if you could have access to *reasonably priced* bandwidth..
The fact your bandwidth is so ridiculously expensive has made you a CONSTANT champion for traffic blocking/filtering, caps, overages, fighting network neutrality, and so on.... for your own business reasons. (Profit.)
The actual fact is you're being ripped off. If you could get bandwidth for prices like AT&T and Comcast can get (and even if you paid several times more then they do) all your problems would be gone and you'd still make good profit.
Google is not the enemy. The incumbents providers are.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
| |
| | | | | | Your conspiracy theories about Google aside, two points.
1) Those in DC laugh at you when you say this, because Google frankly sucks at lobbying, both in the direct fashion, and in the indirect fashion. They spend very little compared to the big guys, and don't have the depth to flood the Hill and get shill groups out on the turn of a dime (Frisbee Golf anyone?).
2) You gripe about onerous regulations, while also screaming for more special access pricing regulations. Network neutrality is a very light regulation in comparison to the setting of wholesale circuit rates. Yet one regulation benefits you, and the other, in your mind would cause you to perhaps have to responsibly manage your network instead of blocking all P2P so you have enough time to troll every message board on the net.
Brett, the truth is, net neutrality is going to happen, at the very least, something like the four principles will become law, as the COPE Act in 2006 which codified the four principles was a Barton led bill. But because of your batS*it insane behavior over the years, instead of flying under the radar, you are now actually going to be thumped for your horrible net management techniques. | |
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MadtownPremium
join:2008-04-26
Madera, CA | 4mbps/1mbps So I wonder how long will it take the DSL providers such as AT&T to provide this speed to their customers? I understand it won't be the very second that 4/1 is the new definition to broadband, so is it going to take 3 months, 6 month, how long would it take to serve that speed?
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| | WhatNowPremium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC | Re: 4mbps/1mbps change you months to years and you might be close. The rural areas will get it as wireless before they get it on fiber. N C is the 11th most populated state but except for the populated area along I-85 it is made up of small towns and small farms. The houses are spaced too far apart to reuse the copper and would cost at least $5K per house for fiber. A lot of the homes are trailers and they can barely pay the phone bill after the Sat TV bill. Many of the homes are older on SS and DSL if they can get it serves their need for just e-mail. A company will spend a lot of money and only get 20% at most.
I am not saying it is not needed but the money is not there. You guys are already griping don't make me pay for it. I want my bill to go down. | |
| | | MadtownPremium
join:2008-04-26
Madera, CA | Re: 4mbps/1mbps I live in Madera, Ca, in a residential type neighborhood. Lots of houses and we have 2 apartments, (I think they're own by the same apartment managers from what I've heard) so it's not like we're rural out here. We even have a bowling alley in walking distance (unless you consider a few blocks away as too far to walk) | |
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| iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
 ·Comcast
| Nowish.
Seriously, DSL providers only have to upgrade line cards if they're on old ADSL to ADSL2+ to get that kind of speed (upload mainly). I'd say that the VAST majority of DSLAMs in the US are already ADSL2+ capable so all they have to do is push a config file out. ADSL2+ can do up to 1.4 Mbps on uploads, and 1162 kbps is enough, factoring in ATM overhead etc., to do 1 Mbps just fine. The DSL providers have just been lazy up until now with regard to upload speeds, as decent uploads might require some line grooming (but then again might not) in order to make things work. | |
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| | | | |
| | Bottomline What we got here, is a Failure To Communicate!! | |
| trish2
join:2008-03-24
Laurens, SC | Broadband Plan The minimum definition for broadband should be one gigabit or higher at a bare minimum. | |
| | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Broadband Plan Can your computer support gigabit speeds?
Realistically, somewhere between 20 and 35 Mbps, symmetric, is plenty for today's uses. 100 Mbps is gravy right now, but still very cool. It's also a realistic objective for a few years from now. I'd aim for that.
Don't get me wrong; gigabit is good and all. However I defy you to find a computer that will suck crap down at a gigabit or a consumer-grade router that will route it. No, pfSense doesn't freaking count. Yes, I would buy the necessary equipment to take advantage of a gigabit connection if one was offered at a low, low price to my home. However I know for a fact that 99.999% of people won't be doing that for another five to ten years. According to my calculations, assuming that network bandwidth (and the desire for it) increases 50% year over year, we'll need ~7.5x as much bandwidth in five years and ~57x as much in ten. Nowhere near a gig when you look at the current national average (10 Mbps or less). | |
| | | | | Re: Broadband Plan said by iansltx:Can your computer support gigabit speeds? Realistically, somewhere between 20 and 35 Mbps, symmetric, is plenty for today's uses. 100 Mbps is gravy right now, but still very cool. It's also a realistic objective for a few years from now. I'd aim for that. Don't get me wrong; gigabit is good and all. However I defy you to find a computer that will suck crap down at a gigabit or a consumer-grade router that will route it. No, pfSense doesn't freaking count. Yes, I would buy the necessary equipment to take advantage of a gigabit connection if one was offered at a low, low price to my home. However I know for a fact that 99.999% of people won't be doing that for another five to ten years. According to my calculations, assuming that network bandwidth (and the desire for it) increases 50% year over year, we'll need ~7.5x as much bandwidth in five years and ~57x as much in ten. Nowhere near a gig when you look at the current national average (10 Mbps or less). Considering it will take at least 10 years for this plan to be completed, I do believe a gigabit is the sweet spot for preparing for the future.
And a gigabit is 125MB/sec. You do know SATA is capable of a gig or more right? | |
| | | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Broadband Plan I'm fully aware that the SATA spec allows for more than 125 MB/s, however you need an SSD to reach those speeds. The average computer can'd do more than about 60 MB/s over a network.
Also, if we're talking about ten years then we're talking about pie in the sky. The administration will change twice before then... | |
| | | | | bn1221
join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY | Re: Broadband Plan 60MB over Gbit network is my dream. My Gbit LAN here tops at 30-40 do to Windows 2003 crummy CIFS | |
|
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Comcast
| May I suggest... ...the Republican alternative to this plan (we're talking about what a responsible Republican legislator would suggest, not some crap-bag who's in the pocket of the industry)...
TAX CUTS!
No, seriously.
A. Allow 100% of last-mile fiber to be expensed, as long as either
1) 100 Mbps down, 50 Mbps up service is launched by the end of the year at $200 per month or less and decreases in price to $150 (or less) by the end of 2011, $120 (or less) by the end of 2012, $100 (or less) by the end of 2013 and $70 (or less) by the end of 2014. If these price/speed targets are not met then a fine is assessed at the same rate as the tax savings
or
2) Open access is available over the network, with service provided by at least three ISPs, two of which must not be the company who laid the fiber. The interconnection point for access must be accessible enough to attract these competitors by the end of 2011, otherwise a fine will be assessed at the same rate as the tax savings.
or
3) No competing wireline broadband service is available to the customer, and 4 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up service is offered for at most $50 per month as soon as the service is made available to the customer.
B. Allow 100% of cable plant upgrades to be expensed in the following areas:
1) Upgrades of plant to 1GHz (from 860MHz, 750MHz, etc.)
2) Upgrades to raise the capacity of the cable return path (for more DOCSIS upstream channels, or higher upstream modulations like QAM64)
3) DOCSIS 3 upgrades
If
(for 1GHz upgrades)
At least 20% of reclaimed spectrum is used for DOCSIS service (so on a 750MHz to 860MHz upgrade four of the 18 available channels are dedicated to DOCSIS) within 14 days of upgrade completion
(for upstream improvements)
Upstream speeds on all residential and commercial cable internet tiers increase by at least half the percentage capacity increase without a change in price (e.g. if an upgrade from QAM16 to QAM64 is made, thus increasing upstream capacity by 200%, residential and commercial cable package upload speeds must double with no price increase). This would only be enforced for areas where the capacity upgrade has taken place, and would be required within 60 days of upgrades.
So in order for a TWC QAM16 to QAM64 upgrade to be expensible (aka deductible) they would have to change 768/128 to 768/256, 3/384 to 3/768, 7/512 to 7/1, 15/2 to 15/4 and 50/5 to 50/10, all with no increase in price. If Comcast wanted the deduction for upstream channel bonding work to increase capacity by 150%, they would have to turn 1/384 into 1/672, 12/2 would become 12/3.5, 22/5 would become 22/8.75 and 50/10 would become 50/17.5. I'm guessing though that Comcast would just up everything to nice round numbers: 1/1, 12/4, 22/10 and 50/20 
Why not a 1:1 tier increase ratio? Because some systems need the extra capacity to maintain service anyway, and a system shouldn't be forced to be overloaded to take advantage of the tax breaks.
(for DOCSIS 3 upgrades)
1) The cable operator must offer 20/5 (or better) residential internet service for $80 or less per month to customers within 90 days of DOCSIS 3 upgrades, $65 or less by the end of 2011 and $50 or less by the end of 2012. The same tier or better must also be available to commercial entities with price caps of $200, $150 and $100 per month on the above schedule. Customers under contract must be allowed to revert to these prices at the time when they are required without a contract extension or early termination fee.
2) The cable operator must offer 50/10 (or better) residential internet service for $120 or less per month to customers within 180 days of DOCSIS 3 upgrades, $90 or less by the end of 2011 and $70 or less by the end of 2012. The same tier or better must also be available to commercial entities with a well-advertised long-term price, though no price cap is required. See above for contract verbiage.
3) The cable operator must offer 100/15 (or better) residential internet service for $175 or less per month to customers within 180 days of DOCSIS 3 upgrades, $125 or less by the end of 2011 and $90 or less by the end of 2012. The same tier or better must also be available to commercial entities with a well-advertised long-term price, though no price cap is required. See above for contract verbiage.
C. Allow 100% of copper-pair or wireless network upgrades to be expensed that bring
1) 4 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up (or better) service for at most $50 per month with at most a one-year contract to customers who currently do not have access to that internet speed in unmetered form (vs. caps/FAP/throttling/overages) at that price. Installation fees must not exceed $100.
...yes, ADSL2+ is perfectly capable of doing a full 1 Mbps up...
2) 10 Mbps down, 2 Mbps up (or better) service for at most $50 per month with at most a one-year contract to customers who currently do not have access to that internet speed in unmetered form (vs. caps/FAP/throttling/overages) at that price. Installation fees must not exceed $100.
...this is so, for example, a DSL provider can invest in line bonding equipment to turn 6/1 $50 DSL into 15/2 $50 DSL...
D. Tax credit of $100 per residential customer in the following instances:
1) Non-broadband customer signs up for 4/1 or better at $40 or lower internet service. Customer must not have had broadband before from anyone. Satellite doesn't count as broadband. No more than a one-year contract may be required, and the price must be after-tax, after-fee and after-promo.
2) Non-broadband customer signs up for 768/200 or better at $25 or lower internet service. $25 must be the price of the service standalone, and must remain at $25 or below after taxes, fees and promotional expiration. No more than a one-year contract may be required.
3) Any customer moving to a 15/5 or better broadband package with a $50 or lower after-fee, after-tax, after-promo price, obtainable with a contract of one year or less, from a package with either speeds of 10/2 or less for the same or higher price, or with a price of $70 per month or more at any speed.
4) Any customer whose internet speeds are doubled, both downstream and upstream (and cap-wise, if applicable) with no increase in bottom line internet price over the last twelve months. The increase must measure at least 4 Mbps on downloads, 1 Mbps on uploads and 100GB on caps (if applicable) to qualify.
E. Tax credit of $200 per residential customer in the following instances:
1) Non-broadband customer signs up for 4/1 or better at $25 or lower internet service. $25 must be the price of the service standalone, and must remain at $25 or below after taxes, fees and promotional expiration. No more than a one-year contract may be required. (yes, this is effectively a subsidy, but that's okay)
2) Any customer whose internet price per downstream AND upstream megabit has decreased by 50% or more over the past year, whose internet bill has not increased AT ALL over the past year, whose internet service is now (or has always been) free of data transfer caps, and whose price per megabit is now at most $1.20 for downstream and $2.40 for upstream.
Only one tax credit per customer may be collected per year.
F. Only apply sales tax to internet above $40 per month when the speed is 4/1, or above $80 per month when the speed is 100/50 (for states that tax internet...Texas comes to mind though our tax floor is $25 per month)
G. On carrier-grade circuits, deduct 100% of provider INCOME on gigabit (or better) circuits priced $1000 per month or less and with either one Internet endpoint or both endpoints more than three miles from each other. Also expense 100% of installation costs for carrier-grade circuits with one gigabit or greater of capacity (PON doesn't count). For a local fiber ring, the circumference of the ring may be used. The tax shelter should expire after three years. OpEx for the circuit may not be deducted on top of this deduction, but the fact that for such a circuit 100% of the funds go into the provider's pocket should be a nice incentive, and might well generate enough competition to put the price of GigE below $1000 per month
I know, tax cuts and credits aren't the way that Democrats roll (they like adding on taxes and redistributing wealth) however I think the above, easily quantifiable goals are pretty straightfoward and will get us where we need to be broadband-wise. They also follow the speed objectives set forth by the FCC. I'm not touching the spectrum side of things; that's just messy. | |
| | | | Re: May I suggest... Way too long. Funny thing about tax cuts. 1/3 of the stimulus bill was tax cuts. Democrats don't have a problem with tax cuts... just cuts for the rich. | |
| | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 | Re: May I suggest... Way too long? And 350+ pages is okay??? | |
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| | | Funny thing is, some of the public interest groups in DC pushed for very aggressive high-bar tax credit/expensing policies like this while the stimulus act was being drawn up. So it isn't really a GOP/Donkey thing here.
Also, you don't see any fiscal policy recommendations in the Plan because the FCC was pretty much signaled to not send much work back towards the Hill to complete, certainly not anything tax policy. | |
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| |  i get 15mb download but less than 1 up on cable
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| KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK |  Average speed 10 down 1 up.
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|  elveySpamassassin
join:2001-02-17
San Francisco, CA | Simple question... What fraction of the country can't get broadband, TODAY?
Between DSL, Cable, Satellite (e.g. WildBlue), and GPRS/3G, isn't more than 99% of the population already served? | |
| | bn1221
join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY | Re: Simple question... You're kidding right?
Most of upstate NY is on 1x or EDGE. Wildblue doesn't have any more spot beams and Hughes FAP at 300MB a day is NOT broadband.
Verizon strong arms everyone too. We had business grade DSL they went down every day - they kicked everyone off the line cards to "manage traffic" This was on a 200 $ a month business line card.
I was 2500 ft from the CO and they wouldn't sell me 12 Mbit ADSL2+..citing only ADSL1 line cards. Funny the model showed ADSL2+ connection..... | |
| | | elveySpamassassin
join:2001-02-17
San Francisco, CA Reviews:
 ·Virgin Mobile Br..
 ·Sipgate VOIP
| Re: Simple question... I'm not asking who has whatever connection they want wherever they want.
I'm not asking who has multiple options.
I'm asking what fraction doesn't have at least one option that at least calls itself broadband. And I'm saying I think it's less than 1 person in 100.
Sheesh.
Sorry, but I've never found a DSL line I couldn't troubleshoot to reliability, and I have over 50 under my belt. If you can't be bothered, or don't have the skills, that doesn't count as not having broadband availability. Not in my book.
Jeez.
Are you saying WildBlue is not signing up new customers, period, or in N of the 45 beam areas?
300MB/day ain't great, but for what fraction of the population is it the only option? Besides, if there's no need for video, it's fine.
Don't expect another response on this line of discussion from me.
--
AT&T is the world's second-largest SpamHaus and leads an
Organized Crime Syndicate. Also see TURN.org or UCAN. | |
| | | | | | Re: Simple question... It is a simple question, and the linked pdf answered it. But the conservative estimate is that 95 percent of U.S. housing units have the ability to purchase some terrestrial high-speed Internet service.
Satellite is explicitly excluded from that, because, yes, with a view of the southern sky, you can theoretically purchase it.
The plan aims to cap the existing phone USF at current level, shift funds around to reach 4 of the last 5 percentage points, and let satellite cover the last million or so hardest to reach remote housing units. | |
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| McRat
join:2009-09-09
Corona, CA | Satellite is "broadband" if 1000+ msec latency time is cool with you and you believe 256k upload is fast. Not that gaming is important, but anything that requires normal response time isn't going to work with satellite. Latency is just irritating in a business environment.
Satellite Internet as of 2010:
We just hooked up Hughes at work, and here's what we found out:
425mb max download allowance for the normal business plan. We found this out by trying to download the Vista Service Pack 2. In the middle of the download, it cuts your speed to 40kbs (slower than dialup), which will drop connections, and cripple your email system.
"Enterprise Installation" is throwing the dish on the roof and holding it down with rocks. Installer refused to install it to the wall even though it comes with a kit to do just that, and it's the preferred method, especially in high wind areas like us.
New Equipment = Used Equipment. Cost over $1000 if I remember right for the dish and modem. Dish was used.
Zero documentation come with the hardware. If you have an IP conflict with their satellite modem, or any other special situations, you are screwed. There is nobody at Hughes that knows anything about their hardware according to their Tech Support personnel.
"Installed" means "not hooked up or tested". When we hooked it to a computer, it produced less than 128k download speed, and disconnected at random. Took a few hours time to fix, because I had to check everything on our end first. It was on their end. They did not set up the modem right, and fixed it remotely. Uh, how come you didn't set up the modem right when you INSTALLED IT. It wasn't a free install, and it was "guaranteed" and performed by "trained technicians". Right.
Wild Blue had a guy show up to install their system first. The "technician" was about 350lb, walked with serious limp, was 60+ years old, and brought a Walmart ladder to climb up onto a 18 foot tall concrete building in a windy area. I wanted a dish install, not a suicide attempt. The fact he was dumber than a brick concerning installing anything to anything was just the icing on the cake.
So I sent him home and sent their equipment back and called Hughes.
Satellite Internet is NOT like Satellite TV. If Satellite TV is a Vegas Showgirl, Satellite Internet is an Atlantic City Crack Whore. No way ready for prime time. | |
| | | elveySpamassassin
join:2001-02-17
San Francisco, CA Reviews:
·Virgin Mobile Br..
·Sipgate VOIP
| Re: Simple question... Belated (sorry!) follow-up:
All service providers have fools and jerks that work for them. YMMV.
I've seen WildBlue do a professional install. The guy hooked everything up, ran the cables the way a professional should, did his own testing, and agreed to wait while I did my own testing. It's been fine.
Oh, and i didn't mention WISPs as another option that can be viable in rural areas.
Wildblue is not 'full'; they can handle more customers and still provide 'em with true broadband.
If you try to install vista sp2 (which is only 348MB) onto each computer, then you're dumb. The Hughes Biz plan allowance is 1250MB. Plus there's no limit to early AM downloading, and a monthly get out of jail free card.
--
AT&T is the world's second-largest SpamHaus and leads an
Organized Crime Syndicate. Also see TURN.org or UCAN. | |
|
| | Is there something missing here? 1. Setting a minimum upload and download speed for the definition of Broadband is great, but what about latency? Online gaming companies are not going to like that being left out.
2. Why the push to wireless? Maybe to make it easier to watch us 24Hrs a day or is it cheaper and quicker to do.
3. Is there a National Security part of this plan that is not being released for public eyes? I mean really, how much of our current system(phone,cable,cell,wireless) is still copper wire based. If you really want to get the system upgraded quickly, tell congress about EMP bursts and what they would do to the current system and let them think about the two countries in the world that we are trying to keep from making N bombs and how both now have the ability to put satellites in orbit. Rocket+Orbit+NBomb = EMP BURST
4. To everybody who thinks $50 a month is affordable, you need to contact those lost relatives that you have that are trying to live on a ss retirement check, disability check or widowers check and ask them how much they can afford. It might open your eyes to a major problem that is growing. These people can not afford to live anymore.
So anyway, everybody on here, pretty much agrees about the lying going on about the state of the current system, so do not just sit there and let them rob us, Email your CONGRESSMEN and SENATORS and tell them about the lies and what you think should be done. The more people we get to email, the better chance we have to change this before it starts. So email, email, email ! | |
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1 edit | Re: Is there something missing here? said by leftout :
So anyway, everybody on here, pretty much agrees about the lying going on about the state of the current system, so do not just sit there and let them rob us, Email your CONGRESSMEN and SENATORS and tell them about the lies and what you think should be done. The more people we get to email, the better chance we have to change this before it starts. So email, email, email !
Good suggestion that I intend to follow up on ...
I tried Cablevision Internet (Optimum Online) last September when my 3MB/768kB DSL connection was acting up (Verizon had a Network problem in the region from July that was not resolved until September). The service was supposed to be 15/2 or some such but it was erratic and I rarely got 1MB/200kB out of it. When DSL came back in September it looked like the Cable service perked up so I hooked up a second router to my home Network and had both side-by-side for check out comparison. I finally booted Optimum Online and stuck with DSL. I consistently get 2800kB down with DSL and most times I never got much more than 2200kB down with cable. In the evenings after work it was muchworse and pathetic. DSL was more consistent and stable. So these "up to ..." speed advertisements are so disingenious it must be that it could only happen here ...
Edit: I have to mention that the cable Intro price was already 50% more than the DSL price. Imagine after the 1 year promotion period when I would have had to pay full price for less bandwidth! This was a no brainer decision indeed. | |
| |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP
join:2004-03-07
Canada | like the latest episode of 24?
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Speak Truth To Power. | |
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Comments reported on various special interests
