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Comments on news posted 2010-05-11 13:10:05: We've seen no limit of insane 3G bills incurred by people who don't understand the concept of overage penalties while in the States -- or the steep overages they can incur by taking their phone (or tethered laptop) overseas. ..

zed2608
Premium Member
join:2007-09-30
Cleveland, TN

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zed2608

Premium Member

here fcc take this x amount of money

and just forget all bout the consumers bills is how it will end

old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."
join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD

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old_dawg

Member

Sure

Just have the nanny state get deeper into our lives. Maybe an IQ test should go along with that service contract?. Wait, we can't even get that as a requirement for a driver's license, parenthood...

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

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Guspaz

MVM

Re: Sure

Insanely high bills are not always the fault of the user. Take my account with Fido, for example. I've got an iPhone data plan, 6GB for $30 with tethering. If I go over my cap, I pay $30/GB extra. If I leave the country and enter the US, I pay $6,292/GB extra.

Fine, you might say, just don't use your data plan while in the US. Easy.

Not so easy when you consider that the phone will simply pick the strongest signal it can find, regardless of what country it's in. Since the vast majority of the Canadian population lives within something like 150KM of the US border, you can imagine that there are occasions where your phone will decide that a US tower has a better signal than a Canadian tower, and boom; you're paying US roaming rates for usage in Canada!

I've only seen this myself when I've driven down the 401 (the major highway between Montreal and Toronto, Canada's two largest cities). At a few points, my phone jumped to US networks.

Luckily, the iPhone has an option to disable international data roaming, so I don't need to worry about that, although I could still get billed the ridiculous voice roaming rate if I was making (or in the middle of) a call.
cghh
join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA

1 edit

cghh

Member

Re: Sure

said by Guspaz:

Not so easy when you consider that the phone will simply pick the strongest signal it can find, regardless of what country it's in. Since the vast majority of the Canadian population lives within something like 150KM of the US border, you can imagine that there are occasions where your phone will decide that a US tower has a better signal than a Canadian tower, and boom; you're paying US roaming rates for usage in Canada!
Doesn't the GSM protocol have the notion of priorities among candidate systems? With CDMA, the Preferred Roaming List prioritizes various systems, with the phone hanging onto a higher priority system until it is essentially unusable, no matter if a lower priority system has a much stronger signal.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

1 edit

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amigo_boy to old_dawg

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to old_dawg
said by old_dawg:

Just have the nanny state get deeper into our lives. Maybe an IQ test should go along with that service contract?. ...
Would you abolish the SEC and FDIC? Just let companies and banks operate "full of surprises?" Leaving it to investors and depositors to figure it out?

Capitalism (markets) work best when there is transparency and predictability. That's why we have zoning laws and building codes.

Requiring informed consent when using a wireless provider is just more of the same.

If you wouldn't get rid of the above-mentioned "nanny-state" interventions in the "market," it's not clear why requiring overage limits goes too far.

If you would get rid of the above-mentioned (things we take for granted as part of ordered liberty and civil society), then you're part of the irrelevant fringe. Your views can be judged accordingly.

Mark

airtouch25
join:2007-05-22
united state

airtouch25

Member

Re: Sure

"Capitalism (markets) work best when there is transparency and predictability. That's why we have zoning laws and building codes."

That was one of Goldman Sach's arguments too.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

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amigo_boy

Member

Re: Sure

said by airtouch25:

"Capitalism (markets) work best when there is transparency and predictability. That's why we have zoning laws and building codes."

That was one of Goldman Sach's arguments too.
Actually, Goldman (derivatives) flourished because transparency was defeated in 1998. We were told "markets get it right."

See PBS, Frontline: The Warning. There's a link in the top-right corner to watch the hour-long program. It's very interesting. Especially at the end, watching an emaciated Greenspan (a libertarian) saying the worldview (markets get it right) which guided his life was proven wrong.

Mark
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

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xenophon to old_dawg

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Regulation is a necessary evil when big corps don't play fair. The carriers need to have better mechanisms before overcharges get unreasonably high, such as texting when going $20 over or stopping data after a particular limit with permission to continue with the overcharge. There are many ways to prevent multi-$K bills yet they don't make the effort. If the carriers don't manage this themselves within reason, they are asking for regulation.

Thomas9
@pacbell.net

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Thomas9 to old_dawg

Anon

to old_dawg
For those, who again promote anarchism = no rules and regulations. Please show me one country where this has actually worked for the well being of the people. We need regulations, that set the framework for fair competition. Otherwise, there is just anarchy.
Bubba Rock
join:2010-04-21

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Bubba Rock

Member

Re: Sure

said by Thomas9 :

For those, who again promote anarchism = no rules and regulations. Please show me one country where this has actually worked for the well being of the people. We need regulations, that set the framework for fair competition. Otherwise, there is just anarchy.
But dude, you haven't heard how totally awesome Somalia is these days?!

I mean warlords and pirates and shit man, you can't get much more free market than that!
BWX
join:2006-10-10
Elmira, NY

BWX

Member

Re: Sure

Socialism works great, just ask Greece.

But really- customers sometimes deserve what they get (in a phone bill) and sometimes companies are to blame by straight out lying to technologically unsophisticated people, or misleading them to the point of being liable themselves. The laws should have absolutely no problem figuring it out. When both parties are slightly dissatisfied, that's usually close to the right answer.
Bubba Rock
join:2010-04-21

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Bubba Rock

Member

Re: Sure

said by BWX:

Socialism works great, just ask Greece.

But really- customers sometimes deserve what they get (in a phone bill) and sometimes companies are to blame by straight out lying to technologically unsophisticated people, or misleading them to the point of being liable themselves. The laws should have absolutely no problem figuring it out. When both parties are slightly dissatisfied, that's usually close to the right answer.
The situation in Greece has zero to do with socialism. That's just ludicrous. You've got the wrong "ism" here. It's pure insanity that socialism is the current bogeyman instead of say corporatism.

There was (and is) a global economic crisis. This was not brought about by socialism that's for sure. It was brought about by years of deregulation right here at home (let the financial industry regulate itself!) and here we have plenty folks wishing for the status quo to continue.

Amazing!!
BWX
join:2006-10-10
Elmira, NY

BWX

Member

Re: Sure

said by Bubba Rock:

said by BWX:

Socialism works great, just ask Greece.

But really- customers sometimes deserve what they get (in a phone bill) and sometimes companies are to blame by straight out lying to technologically unsophisticated people, or misleading them to the point of being liable themselves. The laws should have absolutely no problem figuring it out. When both parties are slightly dissatisfied, that's usually close to the right answer.
The situation in Greece has zero to do with socialism. That's just ludicrous. You've got the wrong "ism" here. It's pure insanity that socialism is the current bogeyman instead of say corporatism.

There was (and is) a global economic crisis. This was not brought about by socialism that's for sure. It was brought about by years of deregulation right here at home (let the financial industry regulate itself!) and here we have plenty folks wishing for the status quo to continue.

Amazing!!
unfunded cradle to grave entitlements have EVERYTHING to do with it.. and Freddy and Fanny was and IS out of control. That is a quasi government entity that started this entire financial meltdown. It was government giving out loans for McMansions that would never get paid back.. and government requiring other financial institutions to take the same stupid risks.. It was all for "social justice". Look where that got us, and look where socialism got Greece. You are blind if you think big evil corporations are at fault- it is big evil (and corrupt) GOVERNMENT that is the wasteful parasite- and the problem here and in Greece.

WAKE UP!
Bubba Rock
join:2010-04-21

Bubba Rock

Member

Re: Sure

waste of my time in this thread. such rabid and fanatical ignorance will surely be the undoing of this country.

bdub232
@rr.com

bdub232

Anon

Re: Sure

said by Bubba Rock:

waste of my time in this thread. such rabid and fanatical ignorance will surely be the undoing of this country.
no response, says it all....
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

amigo_boy to BWX

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to BWX
said by BWX:

Freddy and Fanny was and IS out of control. That is a quasi government entity that started this entire financial meltdown. It was government giving out loans for McMansions ...
That's a gross over-simplification. To the extent that it's false.

There were many factors contributing to the meltdown:

1. Community Reinvesment Act (CRA) legislative and regulatory changes of

... - 1992, requiring Freddie/Fannie to devote a percentage of their loans to "affordable housing."

... - 1995, requiring banks to lend money to so-called "red-lined" areas (changing the anti-redlining standard from proving loans were at least considered on their merits, not just their geographic location, to a standard which required a percentage of loans to actually be made by geographic location regardless of merits).

... - 1999, repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act which required banks to keep casino-like investment services separate from their commercial deposit business (guaranteed by the government's FDIC).

2. President Bush's "Ownership Society" policy contributed significantly to the problem of lowered lending requirements.

Although originating in 1995, and increased in 1999 under President Clinton[1], sub-prime lending actually exploded under President Bush:
said by "Wash. Post" :

In 2001 [a year before President Bush's election], HUD researchers warned of high foreclosure rates among subprime loans.

"Given the very high concentration of these loans in low-income and African American neighborhoods, the growth in subprime lending and resulting very high levels of foreclosure is a real cause for concern," an agency report said.

But by 2004 [two years into the Bush Presidency], when HUD next revised the goals, Freddie and Fannie's purchases of subprime-backed securities had risen tenfold. Foreclosure rates also were rising.

That year, President Bush's HUD ratcheted up the main affordable-housing goal over the next four years, from 50 percent to 56 percent. John C. Weicher, then an assistant HUD secretary, said the institutions lagged behind even the private market and "must do more."

For Wall Street, high profits could be made from securities backed by subprime loans. Fannie and Freddie targeted the least-risky loans. Still, their purchases provided more cash for a larger subprime market.

"That was a huge, huge mistake," said Patricia McCoy, who teaches securities law at the University of Connecticut. "That just pumped more capital into a very unregulated market that has turned out to be a disaster."

In 2003, [fannie/freddie] bought $81 billion in subprime securities. In 2004, they purchased $175 billion -- 44 percent of the market. In 2005, they bought $169 billion, or 33 percent. In 2006, they cut back to $90 billion, or 20 percent. Generally, Freddie purchased more than Fannie and relied more heavily on the securities to meet goals. --»www.washingtonpost.com/w ··· 6_2.html
I think that's an important point because those who toss the socialism word-bomb often suggest democratic socialism -- while ignoring republican socialism.

For example, President Bush didn't stop HUD. And, that happened at a time when Republicans controlled the House, Senate and Presidency for 4 years! (Jan. 2003 to Jan. 2007.) At the height of the maddness!. Just 18 months before the meltdown began!

Not only that, but Republicans controlled Congress (both the House and Senate) for 6 years between Jan. 1995 to Jan. 2001.

In other words, Republicans were the Congress who gave us the two problematic CRA revisions ('95 and '99). They were also the Congress of '99 which barred states from regulating Credit Default Swaps (regulation which had been on the books since the 1907 Panic). And, they controlled the agenda (committees, bringing bills to the floor) for an astonishing 10 years during the 12 years that we are told today (by Republicans) should have been obvious to everyone a problem was brewing. Not a single revision brought to the floor for a vote!

At the signing of the '99 CRA deregulation Greenspan, McCain and Gramm looked like they were peeing down their legs.[2]

3. Greenspan held interest rates too low, too long.

This had the effect of inducing investors into riskier investments in search of better returns. As we will see, that was fuel for the the growing derivatives market (casino).

4. Bernanke raised interest rates too high, too fast.

This was like a short squeeze on all the sub-prime borrowers (who had essentially bet on low interest rates).

If anyone should have known the huge dependence on low interest rates, Bernanke should have. (He should have also understood the dependence of the peripheral derivative market. But, since it was unregulated, he couldn't know.).

5. The "carry trade."

Japan's "lost decade" created nearly free money. Investors could borrow the yen at almost 0% interest, and invest it in another currency.

Like point #3 above, this was a toxic combination for the growing derivatives market which produced exceptional yield with no apparent risk (which unregulated derivatives hid very well).

6. The growth of unregulated (over-the-counter) derivatives.

A cross between naked shorting (betting against a stock you don't actually own, which is banned by the SEC without heavy margin requirements) and insurance (which is regulated by states to require the insurer maintain adequate capital reserves to pay claims in a worst-case scenario.).

It was this market of exotic financial vehicles which was unregulated and completely opaque. The chairperson of the CFTC recommended they be regulated in 1997. But, she was beat down by Greenspan (an ideologicial libertarian), Rubin (former chairman of Goldman Sachs) and Summers (now an economic adviser to President Obama).[3]

As a result of non-regulation:
According to the British Bankers Association, the CDS market expanded from just $180 billion in 1996 to a stunning $20 trillion a decade later. That’s a 111-fold expansion in this esoteric, opaque market. And by all accounts, it continued to grow LAST year [2007] as well — to a whopping $57.9 TRILLION, according to the Bank for International Settlements. --»moneyandmarkets.com/Issu ··· CDS-2279
It was this growth of unregulated "bets" used as insurance which contributed the most to demand for sub-prime mortgages. Investors eager to buy mortgaged-backed securties (MBS) which were based upon Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDO) and "synthetic CDOs" -- CDOs based upon Credit Default Swaps (CDS) mirroring the inverse (default potential) of real assets.

This led to greater demand for more mortgages which Wall St. banks could package and sell on the market as securitized investment vehicles:
said by "Barr testimony" :

Despite the fact that CRA appears to have increased bank and thrift lending in low- and moderate-income communities, such institutions are not the only ones operating in these areas. In fact, with new and lower-cost sources of funding available from the secondary market through securitization, and with advances in financial technology, subprime lending exploded in the late 1990s, reaching over $600 billion and 20% of all originations by 2005. More than half of subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies not subject to comprehensive federal supervision; another 30 percent of such originations were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts, which are not subject to routine examination or supervision, and the remaining 20 percent were made by banks and thrifts. Although reasonable people can disagree about how to interpret the evidence, my own judgment is that the worst and most widespread abuses occurred in the institutions with the least federal oversight. --»financialservices.house. ··· 1308.pdf
The worst part of these derivatives were Credit Default Swaps (CDS). These allowed owners of toxic assets to "sell" risk like insurance.

However, unlike insurance, anyone could sell risk -- even when they had no interest in the insured item. It was like me buying car insurance on your car when I had no financial stake in your car.

And, anyone could sell CDS contracts (insurance) without regulation of their capital reserves (ability to pay claims). Nor any visibility of an underwriter's exposure to any particular risk. Nor, their exposure to any counterparty (an entity selling risk, who's eggs may be in one overweighted basket).

That made it more like a "side bet" than insurance.

However, CDSs were used like insurance. For example, they were used by banks to reduce the risk associated with assets held by the bank, and thereby reduce the bank's capital reserve requirements.

For example:
This excerpt from a recent Minyanville column pretty much sums up the problem:

"A hedge fund trader once told me that they insured/sold 50 times their capital in CDS with the counterparty being a very large, well-known investment bank.

"When I asked him if he was worried about that kind of leverage, he responded by saying that is the bank’s problem because if he is wrong about writing all these insurance policies (in the form of CDS), they can only lose their investment capital in the fund." --»www.moneyandmarkets.com/ ··· ds-25793
Summary

No doubt that a financial meltdown can change the calculus of social institutions, making them greater burdens to maintain. And, Europe has had a history of greater dependence on social institutions.

But, it is incorrect to suggest that social institutions were the cause of the meltdown (and continuing fallout).

CRA and "ownership-society" social engineering were strong factors. As were poor monetary policy, and non-enforcement of extant regulations.

But, (IMO) the leading component was unregulated, opaque derivatives which were at the heart of obscuring risk. Turning sub-prime mortgages into AAA-rated bonds sold on the open market.

Nobody held a gun to the head of private investors who were literally pouring cash into mortgaged-backed securities. They saw high yields with low risk due to the opaque gimmicks which were performed in the background to structure sub-prime mortgages into AAA-rated bonds. They created the demand for Wall St. to keep buying more and more mortgages regardless of their quality. The securitization process (derivatives) would eliminate the "quality problem."

Strongly recommend watching the Frontline piece footnoted below. The following are also very good for background:

60 Minutes: The Bet that Blew Up Wall Street, Wall Street's Shadow Market

60 Minutes: Credit Default Swaps (A follow-up to the previous show 3 weeks earlier).

Credit and Credibility (The ratings agencies contribution to the obliteration of risk through derivatives)

• A recent article on Credit Default Swaps.

Mark

[1]
said by "Wash. Post" :

In 1995, President Bill Clinton's HUD agreed to let Fannie and Freddie get affordable-housing credit for buying subprime securities that included loans to low-income borrowers. The idea was that subprime lending benefited many borrowers who did not qualify for conventional loans. HUD expected that Freddie and Fannie would impose their high lending standards on subprime lenders. --»www.washingtonpost.com/w ··· 626.html
said by "NY Times" :

In 1999, under pressure from the Clinton administration, Fannie Mae, the nation's largest home mortgage underwriter, relaxed credit requirements on the loans it would purchase from other banks and lenders, hoping that easing these restrictions would result in increased loan availability for minority and low-income buyers. Putting pressure on the GSE's (Government Sponsored Enterprise) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Clinton administration looked to increase their sub-prime portfolios, including the Department of Housing and Urban Development expressing its interest in the GSE's maintaining a 50% portion of their portfolios in loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. --»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su ··· oponents
[2] Photo of Greenspan, McCain and Gramm uncontrollably giddy over the '99 CRA reform.

[3] PBS Frontline: The Warning. An outstanding one-hour documentary of attempts to regulate the derivatives market, just months before the '97 crash (which was largely a result of derivative speculation on Russian bonds by LTCM.).

There is a link on the upper-right corner of the page to watch the program.
BWX
join:2006-10-10
Elmira, NY

BWX

Member

Re: Sure

amigo_boy said:
"But, (IMO) the leading component was unregulated, opaque derivatives which were at the heart of obscuring risk. Turning sub-prime mortgages into AAA-rated bonds sold on the open market."
------------------------------ --------------------------
Which couldn't and wouldn't have happened w/o those sub-prime mortgages... that were mandated by the government.

amigo_boy said:
"That's a gross over-simplification. To the extent that it's false."
-------------- --------------------- -----------------------
Yes it is so false that your "summary" repeats the same thing you said was so over simplified as to be false. (sub-prime mortgages being the root cause)

amigo_boy said:
"Although originating in 1995, and increased in 1999 under President Clinton[1], sub-prime lending actually exploded under President Bush:"

"I think that's an important point because those who toss the socialismword-bomb often suggest democraticsocialism -- while ignoring republicansocialism.For example, President Bush didn't stop HUD. And, that happened at a time when Republicans controlled the House, Senate andPresidency for 4 years! (Jan. 2003 to Jan. 2007.) At the height of the maddness!. Just 18 months before the meltdown began!Not only that, but Republicans controlled Congress (both the House and Senate) for 6 years between Jan. 1995 to Jan. 2001.In other words, Republicans were the Congress who gave us the two problematic CRA revisions........................"
--------------- ------------------- -------------------------
No one said it was all the democrats.. I said it was "government". By making that argument you show who you are trying to defend though.. The people most responsible, the "social justice" crowd. - Liberal democrats like Barney Frank.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

3 edits

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amigo_boy

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Re: Sure

said by BWX:

Which couldn't and wouldn't have happened w/o those sub-prime mortgages... that were mandated by the government.
Sub-prime mortgages existed before the CRA legislative change of 1992. There's no reason to believe the derivative market (which took off in the '97-'07 timeframe) wouldn't have seized upon that market.

It wasn't a government mandate which caused Wall St. banks to securitize mortgages using exotic derivatives. Well over half the mortgage market.

It wasn't a government mandate which caused investors to pour money into those derivatives (sold as bonds), creating even greater demand.

And, it wasn't a government mandate that required investors to buy unregulated "insurance" (on things they didn't even own) which was insufficiently capitalized to pay claims.
said by BWX:

amigo_boy said:
"That's a gross over-simplification. To the extent that it's false."
-------------- --------------------- -----------------------
Yes it is so false that your "summary" repeats the same thing you said was so over simplified as to be false. (sub-prime mortgages being the root cause)
Your assertion was false because you said "fannie/freddie started this entire financial meltdown. It was government giving out loans for McMansions ..."

As I pointed out in my reply, Fannie/Freddie were far from entirely responsible. In fact, they held the least toxic mortgage-backed securities. It was the secondary market's mortgages which were far more out of control (standards-wise).

The problem wasn't McMansions (jumbo loans) either. It was little, average homes. Often refinancing. Often in poorer parts of town.

Fannie/Freddie magnified the problem due to the size of their holdings. But, it wasn't Fannie/Freddie loans that initiated the collapse. It was the truly toxic stuff, and all the CDS side-bets that took place. The stuff Lehman was shifting off their books every month to hide their liability. The stuff they would orchestrate an overnight swap with another Wall St. bank just to create a "market price" (when there was no market).

Fannie/Freddie's assets were collateral damage. In the same way some AAA-rated variable-interest mortgages were.
said by BWX:

By making that argument you show who you are trying to defend though.. The people most responsible, the "social justice" crowd. - Liberal democrats like Barney Frank.
Well... it seems a little strange to blame Barney Frank and his ilk when HUD's sub-prime lending literally exploded in size under President Bush. At a time when Republicans held the House, Senate and Presidency for 4 whole years.

Not only that, but Republicans controlled Congress (both the House and Senate) for 6 years between Jan. 1995 to Jan. 2001.

In other words, Republicans were the Congress who gave us the two problematic CRA revisions ('95 and '99). They were also the Congress of '99 which barred states from regulating Credit Default Swaps (regulation which had been on the books since the 1907 Panic). And, they controlled the agenda (committees, bringing bills to the floor) for an astonishing 10 years during the 12 years that we are told today (by Republicans) should have been obvious to everyone a problem was brewing. Not a single revision brought to the floor for a vote!

Did Barney Frank make all that happen?

I'm detecting a common thread in your argument. Wall St. wouldn't have gone crazy selling derivatives on bad loans (they were buying without the help of Fannie/Freddie) if Fannie/Freddie hadn't set the example first.

President Bush wouldn't have increased bad HUD loans if it hadn't been for President Clinton making it possible.

And, Rs controlling Congress for 10 out of the 12 years would have fixed the problem if it hadn't been for Barney Frank liking sub-prime loans.

It's everyone else's fault!

Anyway. I hope we've settled the crux of the problem with your assertion that the problem entirely started with Fannie/Freddie. There were many factors. A "perfect storm."

Mark

HotRodFoto
Premium Member
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO

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HotRodFoto to old_dawg

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to old_dawg
said by old_dawg:

Just have the nanny state get deeper into our lives. Maybe an IQ test should go along with that service contract?. Wait, we can't even get that as a requirement for a driver's license, parenthood...
How about some old fashioned truth in advertising and eliminating such things as the word "unlimited" in ads for mobile broadband. People have been duped long enough.

MovieLover76
join:2009-09-11
Cherry Hill, NJ
(Software) pfSense
Asus RT-AC68
Asus RT-AC66

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MovieLover76 to old_dawg

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So you'd rather not be warned of a super high cell phone bill?
This idea seems like common sense, and given how cell phone regularly use data to check mail, etc without the users interaction this is a good thing. Tech people probably don't need this, but the average user doesn't know what a megabyte is.

This isn't the government watching us, it's regulation of big corporations for fair consumer protections and if they are going to take away my unlimited 3G, as an iPhone customer I actually do that truly unlimited 3G, they should help the customer manage overages.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102 to old_dawg

Premium Member

to old_dawg
said by old_dawg:

Just have the nanny state get deeper into our lives. Maybe an IQ test should go along with that service contract?. Wait, we can't even get that as a requirement for a driver's license, parenthood...
There's another way to look at this, from the perspective of the cell phone company. Many times when users get bills like these they get negotiated down to something much less than what the original is, and the company has to eat the costs.

By putting in a set maximum spending limit (the way other forms of credit already operate) the phone company avoids taking a massive loss from a customer who simply won't pay a multi-thousand dollar bill.
gorehound
join:2009-06-19
Portland, ME

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Sure just let the corporations who are greedy or folks like Madoff take all your savings away or price gouge you.
In t his age as much as I hate the Goverment you are going to have to have agancies and laws to protect the little folk like me because in the business world not all of them are decent folk.
And then if they are bad who will speak for you ???
So in other words do not blame us consumers for added laws maybe you ought to look closer at the companies instead.

SLD
Premium Member
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

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SLD to old_dawg

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Calling gov't protections a "nanny state" is just thinly veiled corporatist venting. I suppose you'll call it "Socialism" (ohhhh!) next...

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

What about overseas roaming where fees arrive a month later?

This does bring up a question about how to deal with roaming fees outside of the US where the actual charges don't show up for a month or longer. Will the US carrier be expected to eat fees where they had no chance to limit them? Or will the new rules make the traveler responsible for running up costs while overseas?
cghh
join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA

3 edits

cghh

Member

Re: What about overseas roaming where fees arrive a month later?

said by FFH5:

This does bring up a question about how to deal with roaming fees outside of the US where the actual charges don't show up for a month or longer. Will the US carrier be expected to eat fees where they had no chance to limit them? Or will the new rules make the traveler responsible for running up costs while overseas?
That has always been the argument from the providers: that roaming partners may not submit a bill to your provider for your roaming usage for a month or two. OTOH, GSM was designed by the Europeans to deal with roaming between the numerous national systems, so perhaps delayed roaming charges between European countries is not an issue.

castsucks
@sbcglobal.net

castsucks

Anon

need to also look at that $1.99 verizon fee!

need to also look at that $1.99 verizon fee!
ShellMMG
join:2009-04-16
Grass Lake, MI

ShellMMG

Member

How about a little truth for a change?

The word "unlimited" needs to be banned from wireless advertising. The only thing that's currently NOT limited is how high your bill can climb.

People getting their first smartphones, especially older users like my parents, don't have a clue as to how much broadband they use, especially if they have cable internet at home. Usage was beaten into me courtesy WildBlue's meter, but I can see where people would think that they could use their smartphone like they do their home connection.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: How about a little truth for a change?

Unlimited isn't used any longer as far as I know. I just looked at VZW and AT& and both clearly identify caps with their mobile broadband services. Their smartphone plans are unlimited so I don't believe there's an issue. Roaming costs are above and beyond normal service, hence why people are caught off guard and why the FCC is inquiring about charges.

HotRodFoto
Premium Member
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO

HotRodFoto

Premium Member

Re: How about a little truth for a change?

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said by openbox9:

Unlimited isn't used any longer as far as I know. I just looked at VZW and AT& and both clearly identify caps with their mobile broadband services. Their smartphone plans are unlimited so I don't believe there's an issue. Roaming costs are above and beyond normal service, hence why people are caught off guard and why the FCC is inquiring about charges.
It is used, Cricket for instance uses it in their advertising.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: How about a little truth for a change?

Does Cricket limit its unlimited service?

Belinrahs
I have an ego the size of a small planet
Premium Member
join:2007-09-07
Nashville, MI

Belinrahs

Premium Member

Re: How about a little truth for a change?

Yes they do, 5GBs just like all the others.

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WirelesQuest
join:2010-05-13

WirelesQuest to HotRodFoto

Member

to HotRodFoto
Whoa, I HAVE cricket and their PLAN effectively is 5gb per month LIMIT with the ability to use FUTURE GBs to be PAID BACK by future months, to avoid large overage charges in the current billing cycle.
Their small print says the "Unlimited Plan" is LIMITED to 5gb, then slows to about 10-20Kb/s "unlimited" (it is NOT). THAT super-slow "unlimited" usage counts AGAINST you building back up to getting your 5gbs BACK!!! Yes that's right, another little game was explained to me (phone, they refused to put this in writing) when my 5Gb did not reset on the 3rd, 4rth or even 5th month's billing cycle. Because I CONTINUED TO USE (read unlimited use) the connection even at only 10-20Kb/s, I had PERPETUALLY DELAYED getting my account back down below 5Gb TOTAL usage limit. Now, if I ever want to see 90Kb/s again, I have to stop using the service until all the GBs I've used averages out to under 5gb/month since inception. Then cricket's computer will release, each day, what Gb usage was used exactly 30 days ago in a rolling first in - first out fashion.
That is CLEARLY a 5gb per month plan with the ability to use FUTURE GBs to be PAID BACK by future month's 5Gb Limits, to avoid large overage charges in the current billing cycle.

Nowhere in the implementation of the cricket plan is there unlimited service at broadband speeds, ever. Hence, it is not Unlimited broadband.

Nor is it unlimited even at 10-20Kb/s speed. Even at that slow usage, you are borrowing from future months, delaying, probably in perpetuity, any chance of broadband speeds (even a lowly 90Kb/s). Cancelling the plan will require you to pay for those Gbs used and not yet "paid for" by future months. Hence they are not unlimited and certainly not free in dollars or speed costs.
wilburyan
join:2002-08-01

wilburyan

Member

Rogers Blackberry App

Rogers in Canada just released their "My account" app for the blackberry. It lets users track data and minutes usage... live...
mob (banned)
On the next level..
join:2000-10-07
San Jose, CA

mob (banned)

Member

There are plenty of sophisticated tools...

Companies usually call them "customers".

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Get Rid of Unfees

Make companies include the costs of all fees in the advertised price of service.
nutcr0cker
join:2003-04-02
Chandler, AZ

1 recommendation

nutcr0cker

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If such bill were in the US GOP would drown US in tears

If such bill were in the US GOP would drown US in tears.
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned)

Member

Re: If such bill were in the US GOP would drown US in tears

said by nutcr0cker:

If such bill were in the US GOP would drown US in tears.
I don't see the Democrats running too fast at this either.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

2 recommendations

Mr Matt

Member

The old wireless shell game!

Our economy has evolved into a state where the government allows wireless companies to play the old shell game, with the larger companies getting away with more abuses. Big wireless is to big to sanction. Our corrupt government has allowed big wireless to abuse customers by:
1) Requiring customers to sign incomprehensible contracts to obtain service and then requiring them to use biased binding arbitration if there is a dispute.
2) Big Wireless uses fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD) to intimidate customers into paying more than they need to for service. Charge $0.35 - $0.45 per minute for postpaid service for overages while charging prepaid customers $0.25 per minute 24/365. The salesmen will invariably weasel the customer into pay for a 1,500 minute plan for an additional $20.00 plus $4.00 in crap charges per month, when they never use more than 500 Peak Minutes per month.
3) When there is a family emergency hit the customer with a $500.00 Cell Phone Bill because they used 900 Minutes during the measurement period.
4) Wireless data service is a new frontier for raping, pillaging and gouging the customers finances. Wireless Carriers use confusion to defraud customers by not making the contracts clear and simple. When customers access the wireless carriers data network, the home page should include a text box showing the amount of data used during the measurement period and the date for the next usage measurement reset. The data downloaded to display the usage monitor to the customer should not be charged to the customers account for that measurement period.

MovieLover76
join:2009-09-11
Cherry Hill, NJ
(Software) pfSense
Asus RT-AC68
Asus RT-AC66

MovieLover76

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Re: The old wireless shell game!

For #3 that is one positive for AT&T which has saved me a few times, I have a little over a thousand roll over minutes with a 450 min plan, most months I use about 200 mins, a couple months something happened and I hit 850 once but it all all rollover so I was ok, it's the one plus to switching from Verizon.

For two very few people pay per minute any more and prepaid is accepted to be more per minute, but less expensive for the light cell phone user in the long run due to no commitment
MovieLover76

MovieLover76

Member

Re: The old wireless shell game!

not that I'm arguing that wireless billing is fair, it's so not we pay way too much
josh7234
join:2007-08-02
Clearwater, FL

josh7234

Member

responsable

What ever happened to being accountable for your actions? Hows it the wireless companies that you sign a contract without verifying what you will be paying and what you could be paying? Hows it the wireless companies fault if you take your US phone overseas and don't call to find out pricing first and rack up a huge bill. I fail to see in any one of those comments above how they use excuses to racking up bills. For instance the old "my parents" thing... are your parents stupid? NO, of course not so why cant they find the information thats available freely with a simple phone call or a 2 second visit to a website? Why are they immune from following the rules that the wireless companies set however if the government gets involved and sets rules theres no problem following that.
Fill me in here please!

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parson
join:2007-02-17

parson

Member

The old wireless shell game!

It could cost me a full $10 prepaid card, but of course I do have to suffer all year with iEnvy and fatwallet disease.

PapaMidnight
join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

PapaMidnight

Member

What's there not to understand?

We've seen no limit of insane 3G bills incurred by people who don't understand the concept of overage penalties while in the States...
What concept is there not to understand?

Unlimited
1. An unlimited or infinite quantity
2. having no limits in range or scope; "to start with a theory of unlimited freedom is to end up with unlimited despotism"- Philip Rahv; "the ...
3. outright: without reservation or exception
4. inexhaustible: that cannot be entirely consumed or used up; "an inexhaustible supply of coal"

Sounds pretty cut and dry to me.
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22

amigo_boy

Member

Re: What's there not to understand?

said by PapaMidnight:

2. having no limits in range or scope; "to start with a theory of unlimited freedom is to end up with unlimited despotism"- Philip Rahv; "the ...
I think that's the problem. Unlimited (whatever) is a theory. A term of art. Hyperbole.

Everyone knows that. But, when it comes to the internet, suddenly a bunch of people (facetiously, IMO) take it literally.

I'd like to see the equivalent of nutritional label requirements for the internet. Standardized metrics and format requirements so consumers can make apples-to-apples comparisons.

Facetiously arguing that something should be infinite just because a company said it seems to be a distinction without a point (since nobody I know truly expects infinite anything).

Mark
megalosaurus
join:2000-11-29
North Salem, NY

megalosaurus

Member

Just another revenue opportunity for the carriers

No problem for them with this one. Here comes the "unfee" for "uncompensated subscriber overages assessment." Let's see - $9.99 per month per customer should do nicely.

SmartphoneTS
@bellsouth.net

SmartphoneTS

Anon

What's so hard about a flat rate?

I'd prefer that they abolish the whole "unlimited" data idea--the cost of wireless broadband is and will continue to be much higher than that of land lines. Why not simply have a cost per gigabyte, with an handy usage meter on the phone?
If they wanted, the cell companies could do a graduated cost, so that above 5 GB, the cost-per-Gb increases. As it is, companies either shut you off or throttle you down. Just publish the rates; let the marketers and accountants figure out if they want to make rates that are graduated; and then let the consumers in the market pick the winners among the companies based on the value. Marketing guys--might I suggest a yearly GB package, to give the customer longer to go before they exhaust their bytes?

Apples-to-apples comparisons are good, indeed.