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Comments on news posted 2010-07-28 15:46:32: Verizon's transfer of millions of DSL and landline customers to Frontier Communications has gone smoothly so far, if a lack of complaints in our Frontier forum are any indication. ..
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 | | With or without pay? I assume with pay? | |
| | | | Re: With or without pay? If the company is needing to have all these workers work 70 hours per week, can't they get the message that they need to hire more workers? Jobs are tight, and there will sure be a lot of good talent ready to work. If this is prevalent elsewhere, it's no wonder why the unemployment rate is so high. | |
| | |  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5
 ·Frontier FiOS
| Re: With or without pay? If it's like a typical union, they want their cake and eat it too. They don't want to work mandatory overtime for whatever reasons. Frontier can't hire more people because that would take away overtime income from existing employees. And if Frontier eventually does hire people, then the union will fight layoffs once they aren't needed anymore. | |
| | | | | | Re: With or without pay? You're stuck in the '80's. Unions are a shadow of their formal selves, and are quite compliant to economic realities now. | |
| | | | | | | Re: With or without pay? I can't agree with you there...I live in Michigan. Day care providers that accept children from low-income families (subsidized) were just conscripted into a union. Now it shaves a percentage off every day care payment issued by the state.
Unions have recently had a lot of effects on our state, and not good ones. | |
| | | | | | | | | | |  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Re: With or without pay? said by r81984:With a union for every 1 good worker you pay for 1 alright worker and 1 worker that does not do anything. So you pay for 3 workers for about 1.75 worth of work. In China they pay for .3 workers for about 2 worth of work. In a non union shop you get at least 1 person worth of work per each worker because people know they will be fired if they do not work. Unions are the reason china is such a good deal for outsourcing even with the shipping costs. Hate burst your bubble here but you are describing the entire work force -- not just unions here. For every good worker there is another shitty worker and another worker somewhere in between. That is reality.
I agree that China's labor force is much cheaper than the U.S., but that's not because of unions but due to the success of this country.
Resist the temptation to jump on the "unions are the source of all that's evil" bandwagon, because it is not accurate. | |
| | | | | | |  r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T DSL Service
 ·row44
| Re: With or without pay? said by morbo:said by r81984:With a union for every 1 good worker you pay for 1 alright worker and 1 worker that does not do anything. So you pay for 3 workers for about 1.75 worth of work. In China they pay for .3 workers for about 2 worth of work. In a non union shop you get at least 1 person worth of work per each worker because people know they will be fired if they do not work. Unions are the reason china is such a good deal for outsourcing even with the shipping costs. Hate burst your bubble here but you are describing the entire work force -- not just unions here. For every good worker there is another shitty worker and another worker somewhere in between. That is reality. I agree that China's labor force is much cheaper than the U.S., but that's not because of unions but due to the success of this country. Resist the temptation to jump on the "unions are the source of all that's evil" bandwagon, because it is not accurate. If the shop is non union they replace the crappy lazy workers.
Yiou can document their performance issues and fire them if they do not improve.
In a union shop you are stuck with them unless they don't clock in on time like 30 times or miss 15 days of work.
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Your behavior is inconsistent with your desire to be treated like everyone else. | |
| | | | | | | | morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Re: With or without pay? said by r81984:If the shop is non union they replace the crappy lazy workers. You live in fantasy land, because that rarely happens. Employers have to have an overwhelming case to even consider firing a worker. Why? Lawsuits.
Crappy, lazy workers are everywhere. Think about it. They have to live so they have to work somewhere. The lazy aren't just with unions. I've never had a union job in my life, and I've worked with some of the laziest people imaginable. Employers are scared to fire the moderately incompetent. | |
| | | | | | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
1 edit | Re: With or without pay? said by morbo:said by r81984:If the shop is non union they replace the crappy lazy workers. You live in fantasy land, because that rarely happens. Employers have to have an overwhelming case to even consider firing a worker. Why? Lawsuits. Crappy, lazy workers are everywhere. Think about it. They have to live so they have to work somewhere. The lazy aren't just with unions. I've never had a union job in my life, and I've worked with some of the laziest people imaginable. Employers are scared to fire the moderately incompetent. Um no, almost every state follows at-will employement.
You can fire someone at any time for any reason (exect EEO protections).
The argument and lawsuits come into play if the company tries to stop you from collecting unemployment, then they have to prove with documentation that they fired you with cause otherwise you will get unemployement.
Wrongful termination only happens if you are protected by an EEO law, whistleblowing, armed service protections, or sometimes the companies own polices (very, very hard to prove unless the company has very poor documentation).
The only people scared to fire incompetent workers are the lazy bosses that do nothing, scared to develop their employees, and are probably very unorganized. When you hit the point that it is no longer cost effective to keep trying to develop an employee and it is cheaper to hire someone new then you fire them.
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Your behavior is inconsistent with your desire to be treated like everyone else. | |
| | | | | | | | | | morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Re: With or without pay? said by r81984:[ The only people scared to fire incompetent workers are the lazy bosses that do nothing, scared to develop their employees, and are probably very unorganized. You should have said this first, and I never would have replied to your post. | |
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| | | | | | | said by r81984:said by JasonOD :
You're stuck in the '80's. Unions are a shadow of their formal selves, and are quite compliant to economic realities now.
No they are not. We have a union at my work and it does not give workers any more pay over the non union shops (in fact they make less than the non union shop workers at non union facilities), it makes it so bosses must give overtime to the horrible workers before they can give it to the good workers, it makes it so you can't fire anyone as long as they clock in on time even if they don't do anything. With a union for every 1 good worker you pay for 1 alright worker and 1 worker that does not do anything. So you pay for 3 workers for about 1.75 worth of work. In China they pay for .3 workers for about 2 worth of work. In a non union shop you get at least 1 person worth of work per each worker because people know they will be fired if they do not work. Unions are the reason china is such a good deal for outsourcing even with the shipping costs. All the new younger workers start as temps. After they get hired in none of them want to join the union because they see how paying a weekly fee gives them nothing and protects lazy workers that will make them have to work harder. And in China, the people live in camps near the factories and often commit suicide.
I am no fan of unions but I'm no fan of sweat shops either. | |
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| | | | | | Sorry this is just not true, I have witnessed first hand that this is not the case. | |
| | | | |  beachintechThere's sand in my tool bagPremium
join:2008-01-06
kudos:5 | No they aren't. They may pretend to be, but the old school ones are still very much stuck in their ways.
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Tech at the Beach.
I speak for myself, not my employer. | |
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| | | Reviews:
 ·WOW Internet and..
| very true! this is why companies that are union-- such as the telcos- need to kill the last mile network and start out over using some type of wireless technology. lay off the unions due to they won't be needed. They bitch when they have work, and they bitch when they think they'll lose it.
The only ones that will run this company into the ground is the unions.
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www.twopugsbrand.com Kosher, Vegan, and Organic Certified Dog and Cat treats/foods and other products! www.etsy.com/shop/snakx4u/ Organic, Kosher, Gluten Free, Vegan Human Baked Goods | |
| | | | | | | Re: With or without pay? Wireless sucks, I don't see why people are in favor of this.
Would you like the same kind of service reliability at your home that your cell phone gets you? How about for 911? Internet? TV?
Wires (copper or fiber) are the best, fastest, most reliable way to provide voice, data and video to the home. We only deal with wireless voice and data because we have to, it shouldn't be what we strive to. | |
| | | | | |  en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: With or without pay? Umm... why does DTV have a higher reliability rate than cable?
Its technically wireless.
Wires (copper or fiber) currently give more bandwidth.
Wireless is very reliable - I had less outages on DTV in 5 years than I did in the first 6 months on TWC. Wireless is great for broadcast (TV, radio, phone), but doesn't have the capacity for data (or 'on demand' TV). | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: With or without pay? I had about 3 different replies written out to address your ludicrous rationale, but it's just easier to respectfully call you mistaken.
I'll keep it simple, it's impossible to compare digital tv broadcasts, which are one-way, 19.39 megabits in length per channel and stateless in nature to a true, two way TCP based stateful connection that needs to support voice, data and video.
Wires are here to stay, and for good reason. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: With or without pay? then why does ATT have WiMax stations set up in AK and in the southern states? | |
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| | | | | | | | said by en102:Umm... why does DTV have a higher reliability rate than cable? Its technically wireless. Wires (copper or fiber) currently give more bandwidth. Wireless is very reliable - I had less outages on DTV in 5 years than I did in the first 6 months on TWC. Wireless is great for broadcast (TV, radio, phone), but doesn't have the capacity for data (or 'on demand' TV). Are you seriously suggesting that satellite internet will be the ideal way to deliver broadband? Really? | |
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| | | | | | | my do cable companies- including VZ FiOS have a network operations center FILLED with nothing but sat dishes? after all its not as reliable. | |
| | | | | | BiggA
join:2005-11-23
EARTH Reviews:
·Comcast
| Yeah, I agree, and I have wired gigabit at home, but wireless can serve many functions where wired can't.
There is a lot of mid-mile backhaul that is done over microwave, and it's fast and rock-solid. Yes, it should be replaced with fiber, but for now, microwave is OK.
Wi-max and other last-mile wireless technologies are quite reliable when done totally fixed-point with outdoor antennas and such.
Much of WV has restrictions on wireless use of any kind because of the NRQZ and Green Bank. Pochahontas county, which is the ruralest and poorest, is the most heavily affected. I think that this area should get more federal funding for broadband since they can't use wireless technology, and the density is going to make wired expensive.
Most of the towns in WV have DSL, getting it out to the homes that are more than ~8k feet from the CO is where the challenge is.
But outside of WV, the question remains for some areas: 10/1 WiMAX or 28.8 dial-up? The dial-up is wired, so it must be better, accordine to an absolute wired perspective. I'd beg to differ. | |
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| | | | grays
join:2006-02-14
Rochelle Park, NJ | you are so off base.the union workers work hard to overcome a total lack of common sense decisions by "the company".they throw up roadblocks that quite personally are destroying companies like Verizon.You cannot always blame unions. Your Republican attitude shows well.Blame the unions for all the ills out there.These companies care little about the people who work for them.All they care about is getting obscene bonuses & getting rid of workers who make too much.That is what is killing this country! | |
| | | | | | | said by hottboiinnc:very true! this is why companies that are union-- such as the telcos- need to kill the last mile network and start out over using some type of wireless technology. lay off the unions due to they won't be needed. They bitch when they have work, and they bitch when they think they'll lose it. The only ones that will run this company into the ground is the unions. I see you didn't actually read what the union workers' complaints were, nor do you even consider the implications of your actions. Typical armchair critic without an eye towards reality or facts. | |
| | | | | | | | Re: With or without pay? nope! and i grew up in a Union family!. now what do you have to say to that? | |
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| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
1 edit | Um, what you're saying is never going to happen. Just curious, what EXPERIENCE do you have with unions anyway? I mean, you seem to be experienced in just about everything, and absolute.
Yes, unions do run companies into the ground, that I will agree. But, you often forget how unions are formed in the first place. So, yea, lets say they "kill the last mile networks" and "start out over using some type of wireless tech"... does that means unions are out and gone? Does that, to be honest, ridiculous theory make any sense? ... abandon the network to ditch a union? heh.. no. That has to be one of the most silliest ideas ever being that the employees are the ones that bring the unions in to the shop in the first place. NO company is going to be stupid enough to take these measures to bust a union. There is no guarantee that the employees on the wireless division would not form a union and the games start again.
But yes, union guys, in may ways, are some of the most un-reasonable people I've met when it comes to working.. unions are often a thing of the past anyway. But, they do bitch when they don't get enough work, they bitch when they get too much work, they bitch at almost anything OFTEN BECAUSE they've got some union who's writing ridiculous conditions and terms into these agreements and many union workers believe that working and having a job is all about them, and that it's not a two way street.
To be honest, I also don't agree (with another user) that they need to hire more workers. The work load is a temporary increase due to the merger and hiring on new workers is going to be an incredible expense. The company is asking for over time to get through the merger and the workers don't want to put in the time. Quite honestly, these union workers that don't want to work the over time should find work elsewhere. They also often forget that NON-union workers, too, are asked to work mandatory over time every now and then. Sometimes, union workers often come off as cry-babies.
For the record, I've been part of the CWA union for years. I was the one that rallied them in, and I'm the one that started the busting process a few years later as many of us didn't like the conflict of interest between cable and phone, in which they represented both. | |
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| | |  brak22Premium
join:2006-04-13
kudos:1 | They don't have a problem working mandatory overtime but when you are forcing 30 - 40 hours of mandatory overtime every week that is a bit much. I know some of those techs in WV and they are completely worn out. Per the contract, in non-emergency situations, they can force up to 7.5 hours of ot every week. So yes they may be tired, upset and worn out but so would you if you were forced to work 65 + hours every week. Give em a break. | |
| | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: With or without pay? Did it many times... worked many long hours and a lot of over time.. There are many people that work 50 hours a week as a regular work week and also put in overtime on top of that.
I've put in 12 hours a day, 6 days a week many a times.. it's not that bad. I always grew up on, and worked a farm for many years.. ask a farmer how many hours a day they work and see if they complain. It's not like they're being asked to work this many hours forever.
I bet if they tried to bring in temporary contract labor, the union would cry foul. If they didn't and the workers are asked to work OT, they cry foul. Sounds to me like the union wants to sit back, have the company bring in more perm workers, shell out the money to train, pay the benefits, etc. which will ultimately lead to lay offs which will drive up the unemployment benefits as well... possibly have to put out expense into more fleet and other tools, all so that the UNION can collect the extra money from the added union members. I'm taking a stab in the dark, but I'm guessing that this is a closed shop, not an open one. | |
| | | | | |  tim_kButtons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, KaseyPremium,VIP
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
kudos:13
2 edits | Re: With or without pay? said by fiberguy:Did it many times... worked many long hours and a lot of over time.. There are many people that work 50 hours a week as a regular work week and also put in overtime on top of that. I've put in 12 hours a day, 6 days a week many a times.. it's not that bad. You weren't doing it when you're in your 40's or 50's did you? You weren't doing it when the heat index was over 100 for days on end did you? I tried being a service tech, but these tired old joints couldn't handle all the pole climbing and especially summer heat with no A/C in the truck. Besides, this was one email from one worker. Show me any company that doesn't have at least a few complainers.
Seems on this website there is no end to the union bashing and union workers being blamed for every ill in this country. Sure the union itself is often corrupt, but union workers aren't any different than anywhere else. My wife has never had a union job yet she complains daily about the lazy workers she has to deal with.
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RIP my babies Buttons 1/15/94-2/9/07, Beamer 7/24/08, & Bows 12/17/94-10/11/09 | |
| | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: With or without pay? Um, nope.. didn't do it in my 50's... or 40's.. but that really doesn't matter.
My entire family (immediate) are farmers.. the farm is in the central valley of California where temps get up to the 110+ at times.. and, have you even been INSIDE a corn field when it's 100+...? Any idea of the humidity in there? Does this kinda work go on for days on end.. ? Sure, at least all summer long. My grandfather did this up into his 80's.. does that qualify for an age example? My grandmother was in the fields until she was in her early 90's and she died at the age of 99 a few years ago.
Some jobs just aren't right for some people I guess.
To be honest, I never kept my A/C running in the truck when I was climbing poles.. at best it was set to luke-cold. I wasn't stupid enough like some of the other guys just constantly jump from 100 degree weather into a ice box of a van over and over which is unhealthy.. actually, it's more unhealthy to jump between extremes like that than it is to work in the heat, alone.
ALL companies have complainers. I don't really have too much of an issue, over all, with union WORKERS as a rule, but, there certainly are a fair amount of those that are party-line workers that walk around with their heads held in the air with "the union can do no wrong" attitude and total sense of entitlement and "I'm protected by the union" theory.. Some just call that plain ol' smug. But, it's hard to gauge who's the party liners and who isn't because the union ALSO does all the collective talking FOR the worker, puts the opinions in their head, hell, even tells them which candidate to vote for. Personally, I have issues with unions in general because they cross the line WAY too many times as to what their job is. They're just as bad as politicians because they pretty much sleep with them.
But, in this case, if the workers don't want to work the over time, then do something about it. I believe that the unions themselves have PLENTY to be bashed over and rightfully so. They are way too political, and that alone says that they need to be kept on their toes and not given any free ride; they are representation, only they contract in the rule that you say nothing bad about the union - see anything wrong about that one? Unions do deserve to be bashed for many thing as they seem to be 'above-the-law' in their thinking which is wrong.
If the company says "we need more time out of the employees" the unions should be standing out of their way and letting the company can operate..
Sometimes the unions remind me of a local incumbent communications provider trying to stand in the way of a muni based fiber install. Damned if you do, and dammed if you don't as they tie the hands of progress. | |
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| | | | DolganPremium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI Reviews:
·Charter
| LOL! The Midwestern techs for the Verizon areas Frontier bought out have been working 70-90hr weeks for many years. They are smart enough to know that once the company brings in temps to ease the workload it becomes easier to reduce the overall staffing levels and use temps more often. If the WV techs can't handle that many hours they can claim "safety issues" as a reason not to work OT{ie when working 70+ hrs I do not feel safe climbing poles due to fatigue...}.
The techs out here do get tired, but they also appreciate the OT as they make more than most of their Managers with the OT. Usually am a strong Union supporter, but this crying by the WV techs is not justified. | |
| | | | | | tim_kButtons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, KaseyPremium,VIP
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
kudos:13 | Re: With or without pay? said by Dolgan: but this crying by the WV techs is not justified. It was ONE email from ONE tech. | |
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| | | | | said by cdru:If it's like a typical union, they want their cake and eat it too. They don't want to work mandatory overtime for whatever reasons. Frontier can't hire more people because that would take away overtime income from existing employees. And if Frontier eventually does hire people, then the union will fight layoffs once they aren't needed anymore. Wouldn't you get tired from working 7 days a week 10-12 hours a day? I would. | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
| | | | | said by cdru:If it's like a typical union, they want their cake and eat it too. They don't want to work mandatory overtime for whatever reasons. Frontier can't hire more people because that would take away overtime income from existing employees. And if Frontier eventually does hire people, then the union will fight layoffs once they aren't needed anymore. Most times it is not the union. With municipal Gov't for example, they lay off workers, but the same amount of work exists (or more) so the existing workers work a lot of overtime. This is why some firefighters in CA will make $150k in overtime on a $100k salary. | |
| | | | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Nice Trolling...
No, this is a company not willing to hire but instead force workers into a corner. OT is great but not back to back.
What happens when there is a REAL emergency and 3/4 of your techs/crew are laid up? Ever hear of fatigue? Ever hear of nurses/ER folks screwing up because of 70+hr work weeks?
I'd strike. | |
| | | |  SlyPremium
join:2004-02-20
Johnson City, TN
 ·Callcentric
| That is incorrect. It is in a union's best interest for them to hire more workers. Hiring more people reinforces seniority rights for older workers and it brings in more dues for the committee to work with. I have never seen a union fight to keep people from being hired into their own union... Contract workers? Now that's a different thing.
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"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
- Plato - | |
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| |  P NessYou'Ve Forgotten 9-11 AlreadyPremium
join:2001-08-29
way way out | said by burgerwars:If the company is needing to have all these workers work 70 hours per week, can't they get the message that they need to hire more workers? Jobs are tight, and there will sure be a lot of good talent ready to work. If this is prevalent elsewhere, it's no wonder why the unemployment rate is so high. its cheaper to pay overtime the it is union freaking benefits
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| | | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: With or without pay? Unions want more members, because they collect on union dues.
Companies don't want more employees, as it is cheaper/simpler to contract out temporary positions or pay overtime. | |
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| |  GbcueAlmost P.E.Premium
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:8
·AT&T U-Verse
| said by burgerwars:If the company is needing to have all these workers work 70 hours per week, can't they get the message that they need to hire more workers? Jobs are tight, and there will sure be a lot of good talent ready to work. If this is prevalent elsewhere, it's no wonder why the unemployment rate is so high. You want to work 70+ hours a week? In a 5 day work week that's a 14 hour day, more than most cops (12 hour shifts).
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My Blog 2.0 | |
| | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: With or without pay? said by Gbcue:said by burgerwars:If the company is needing to have all these workers work 70 hours per week, can't they get the message that they need to hire more workers? Jobs are tight, and there will sure be a lot of good talent ready to work. If this is prevalent elsewhere, it's no wonder why the unemployment rate is so high. You want to work 70+ hours a week? In a 5 day work week that's a 14 hour day, more than most cops (12 hour shifts). My company bought another company and is consolidating manufacturing facilities.
I have worked 70+ hour weeks for the past 3 months @ 6 days a week, I'm salary so I don't get overtime.
It does not give you a time for a family life, but it won't kill you and it is not forever.
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Your behavior is inconsistent with your desire to be treated like everyone else. | |
| | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
1 edit | Re: With or without pay? Wow! are you exempt or non-exempt employee status? At 70 hours a week, even on salary, most employees are entitled to overtime pay over X amount of hours per week. Many states base a salary on 50 hours per work week. (Can't say sure for Texas but yet to see a state with out this kind of employment provision) California, for example, has a labor provision that states non-exempt employees are paid OT 50+ hours and even then, they're very picky about who can and can't be paid on a salary basis.
I had a lead cashier of mine on salary. In this particular business it made sense to keep her on Salary due to the seasonal issues the business faces. However, the GREAT STATE of Commu-fornia decided that she couldn't be on salary because she was not in a management position nor had any supervisory duties over other employees and was told to re-adjust her pay to hourly based pay. Sad thing is that the state of CA screwed her in the process because even on weeks where we are closed due to weather and such, she still got paid a full week's pay. Now, there are weeks where she gets a check for 8 hours and that's it. | |
| | | | | | | | Re: With or without pay? said by fiberguy:Wow! are you exempt or non-exempt employee status? At 70 hours a week, even on salary, most employees are entitled to overtime pay over X amount of hours per week. In the state I work in (New York) they put an exemption for computer workers making over $26/hour. This means that if you are in IT and make over $26/hour you are not entitled to overtime.
Obviously some politician was paid really well for that exemption. | |
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| | MordhemLove it, Hate it.
join:2003-07-10
Baltimore, MD | Man 70 hour hours a week & mandatory over time? Ohh waaaa, waaa. Give me a break, I had 1 day off a week and over time every day working for Directv, not to mention when times got rough they simply screwed me over by saying a quit / disappeared from my job when i did not do so. That caused me to lose $1,800 from my unemployment! They did this right after I was awarded customer satisfaction award for the last month of my employment! I hear the same thing from Comcast subcontractors, but then again we aren't union but the problem is not a local one! Every one who works in communication does! | |
| | | | | | Re: With or without pay? said by Mordhem:Man 70 hour hours a week & mandatory over time? Ohh waaaa, waaa. Give me a break, I had 1 day off a week and over time every day working for Directv, not to mention when times got rough they simply screwed me over by saying a quit / disappeared from my job when i did not do so. That caused me to lose $1,800 from my unemployment! They did this right after I was awarded customer satisfaction award for the last month of my employment! I hear the same thing from Comcast subcontractors, but then again we aren't union but the problem is not a local one! Every one who works in communication does! So you're insulting others for not being a corporate management slave? *rolls eyes* | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Um, Subcontractors are often not hourly employees... and Comcast doesn't regulate the employment status of the sub-contractors except for issues directly related to interpersonal issues with customers or liability matters directly involving the subcontractor directly. The CONTRACTOR on the other hand, if they can't keep up with the amount of work, and most never complain as they welcome the additional work, is a different story. However, their requirements on work load is clearly outlines in the contract.
But, um.. yea.. anyways...... | |
| | | | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
| Your treatment by DirecTV is not validation for anything or anybody. You were absolutely treated too poorly. DirecTV was under-market on that one. You had all sorts of lawsuits you could have filed against them there. That's not a comparison to anything that matters.
There are legitimate conversations about union vs. non-union, salary vs. non-salary, hours worked, overtime amounts, how all those balance and fight each other, etc.., but you didn't get to any of those by bringing in your B.S. about lies and deceit -- that makes your conversation irrelevant, because you failed to keep them responsible for their actions. | |
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| | | Is it me or do people who are not union members always bitch about unions? | |
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 EricthornIt only hurts when I laughPremium
join:2001-08-10
Paragould, AR | Can't stand the heat.. Get out of the kitchen...
Jack in the Box is hiring I hear. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
| | Holy $^&% Seriously?!
do they not see the rest of the country begging for work?
I'll take their job and start tomorrow anywhere in the country!
Any frontier HR people wanna contact me... PM me via this site. Hehehe. Yeah, I know...not gonna happen, but come on jerks. Find something else to bitch about. | |
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See 25 replies to this post | |
| | Sad Plenty of people would love to have a JOB at this point. Complaining about overtime during a major transition to a neglected system... unions are amazing. | |
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See 18 replies to this post | |
 keithpsPremium
join:2002-06-26
Soddy Daisy, TN
·EPB Fiber Optics
| Never happy I've grown to dislike union workers. When I was building power plants, we hired all union employees. They complain when they have to work overtime, and they complain when they don't get any overtime, and then slow down work so they can get overtime, only to complain again. No wonder unions are losing strength. Pay someone $40/hr to bitch about every little thing, and as soon as you ask them to do something that isn't explicitly stated in the division of work, they file a grievance.
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RIP Dad (10-28-1955 to 4-10-2010) | |
| | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
| Re: Never happy said by keithps:I've grown to dislike union workers. When I was building power plants, we hired all union employees. They complain when they have to work overtime, and they complain when they don't get any overtime, and then slow down work so they can get overtime, only to complain again. No wonder unions are losing strength. Pay someone $40/hr to bitch about every little thing, and as soon as you ask them to do something that isn't explicitly stated in the division of work, they file a grievance. To be fair, it was probably the fat lazy higher-scale workers who complained about doing overtime, and the skinny hard-working lower-scale workers who complained about not getting overtime. It sounds like you just have a weak constitution for handling complaints. If you paid more attention, you would have realized you could just work the workers who liked the overtime more, the ones who didn't like it less, and the ones who complained all the time not at all or not much at all (they're going to complain anyway).
The division of work thing causing grievances sounds like you don't understand the separation of skills that goes on among trade unions. If a lower-paid lower-trained worker comes in and puts you out of work, you have a legitimate grievance in the trade-union way of thinking. The reason for that is that they pick a trade, and then expect to work in that trade when the market is right for it, but if someone who is in a different trade takes their work, then the person in the wrong trade should have picked the right trade to begin with. It's used as an illegal bypass of the contracts between employers and the unions to get cheaper labor, at the expense of those trades who are positioned for the work.
However, it is a byzantine system in a number of ways, so I'm not saying you shouldn't be critical of it. However, getting all upset about a certain trade union member filing a grievance because a boss didn't understand who was trained in what is stretching it. I understand that at some level, all the new employees seem pretty similar. But if you are always hiring the least experienced employees on purpose, then perhaps you ought to stop hiring people and just automate that particular process if it's that easy.
I can see where there are problems when a job requires mostly one trade but has a little of another trade mixed in. I'm sure there's a lot of give and take on that particular issue. Also, perhaps some trades are too expensive. In that case, you have some negotiating to do. It's not for everyone, I understand.
Telco unions have had a notorious history of being awful for progress and innovation, blocking every move to upgrade and innovate. I am almost certain that their anti-progress and anti-innovation motivations were seeded and supported by the telcos themselves, in order to give plausible deniability that it was them causing the lack of progress. Either way, the unions are to blame, since they ran with it regardless of the source. | |
| | | keithpsPremium
join:2002-06-26
Soddy Daisy, TN Reviews:
·EPB Fiber Optics
| Re: Never happy While I see your point, you are not correct about this situation. Power plant work uses almost no apprentices due to the skill demands of the job. The ratio was roughly 20 journeyman per apprentice. So the argument of it being low paid workers doesn't work here. This is effectively what happened:
Pipefitters would slow down work until they were put on a 7-10's schedule. That means, Monday-Thursday they make $29/hr. Friday and Saturday were time and a half, so roughly $45/hr. Then comes Sunday, which is double time, or $58/hr. So these guys would all work on Sundays to get that double time, then conveniently miss Mondays. Even though OT was voluntary, they would all make it for the time and a half and double time days, but miss the regular time days.
Yes we tried to enforce attendance, but you wouldn't believe the stuff some of them came up with; forged doctors notes, forged receipts for blown out tires, even forged police reports where they "hit a deer". I'm telling you, these guys were experts at ripping a company off.
The division of work thing was mostly due to the fact that we were building serial number 001 and 002 of a piece of equipment, and had tasks that hadn't been previously experienced and weren't anticipated. We gave the work on one of the units to the boilermakers, because we didn't really know who to award it to. Subsequently, the electricians threw a fit and brought in all kinds of people high up in the IBEW. We promised to award the same work on the second unit to the electricians. We followed through, but after finding electricians sleeping in the corner with the heater on a few days in a row (and yes, their superintendents were well aware, they were a subcontractor), we went back to boilermakers, because at least they would work. And guess what, the electricians blew it into a big deal anyway. After wasting about 2 weeks of valuable time, we got electricians who would work. Mind you, we were contractually obligated to a completion date, and our L/D (liquidated damages) were $500,000/day capped at $10 million.
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RIP Dad (10-28-1955 to 4-10-2010) | |
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| | Why not hire more people vs 70+ hour weeks? Why not hire more people vs 70+ hour weeks? | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
 Don
@frontiernet.net
thumbs down from:
ashman454 
| AWWWW Poor babies. Imagine being and existing Frontier Employee who makes 7 dollars less and hour then you yet lives in Jefferson County closest to Washington DC. Don't forget anything over 48 hours is double time.
Aren't you guys ever happy? | |
| | | | Re: AWWWW said by Don :
Poor babies. Imagine being and existing Frontier Employee who makes 7 dollars less and hour then you yet lives in Jefferson County closest to Washington DC. Don't forget anything over 48 hours is double time.
Aren't you guys ever happy?
Not all Unions or locals have the same time requirements for double time, some are set at 55 hours. Also not all retirees get medical coverage. The trend is to limit, reduce or eliminate health insurance. The companies want the telcom employee to retire at 65 so they can go on Medicare. I know this because I am a telcom worked in a Union shop but not a member. | |
|
 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Shrug Fire them. Then they will stop complaining about working extra hours.
If this is paid OT, then they should be fired on principle. What kind of moron whines about making more money? Most of us salaried schleps wish we could be in that boat!
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
| | | | Re: Shrug Damn those hippy union guys. Demanding fair treatment. A person should work as long as they have to as often as they have to for the rest of their life, preferably starting from age 12.
We certainly can't have reasonable working hours, retirement planning, good health care and all that jazz. It might cost our shareholders a couple of cents a share.
And if there is one thing we can't have, it is people who "work" by buying and selling ownership of the company to suffer because a bunch of union members aren't working hard enough overtime.
Seriously, what is our country coming to? | |
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| | | jobs Agreed, there are LOTS of people out there BEGGING for jobs. they should be THANKFUL they get any OT they can. I know I get some at work and you will never hear me complain. I welcome any and all of it and feel sorry for those who cannot find a job. | |
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1 edit | Re: jobs This has nothing to do with the 70 hour rule. This has to do with a company signing an agreement with a Union then throwing the agreement out the window. Come work for the New Frontier for a while an just see how it is. All you nobody and never will be people. Play your video games. Look at history. Unions were put in place not for more money. They started because of bad working conditions. Yes there are lots of non-union companies in this country and not all but most pay a substandard pay. They have substandard working conditions. I want to see anyone and I mean anyone come work for the Phone Company. Come climb those poles and carry those ladders for 70plus hours a week for a month and see how you fair. Not one of you have any clue and I would be willing to bet 99% of you couldnt make it one week. | |
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Reviews:
·Suddenlink
·CMA Access
| would love the o/t i HIGHLY doubt that all employees are mandated to work 70+ hours. mostly likely just a whiny few bitching because they can't have their saturday off and they're actually having to WORK during the week. i would LOVE the overtime and be even happier if it was mandated. as it is i have to work 2 jobs right now just to get by. don't hear me bitching about it.
and why is this guy using an anonymous emai??? just another person whining.
beyond working two jobs right now, yes both are outside, working in the factory i had to pull 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week from halloween to day after christmas. mandatory. did i whine? no. sure it's alot of non-stop work in the heat, but it's a lot of money too.
someone tell me we ALL can't use the money? and if this complainer here doesn't need the money from the o/t, THEN QUIT AND MOVE OVER FOR SOMEONE WILLING TO WORK. | |
| | talz13
join:2006-03-15
Avon Lake, OH | Re: would love the o/t Ummm, I'd MUCH rather have the 30-40 hours of free time during the week for two months than whatever amount of money I'd make from overtime. Unless they were giving me $1 million. | |
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nonymousPremium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ Reviews:
·Callcentric
2 edits | Cry for the old techs Some thirty plus year employees walk around entitled. They remember the old MA bell type days and long for the past. They whine and bitch and moan. Yet they will still get their retirement. The techs that do not have that long may have always worked for the none MA Bell companies and have no good days to remember. may not even get retirement. But cry for the older techs they deserve.
First management killed the companies now older techs will bleed away anything left for themselves. Younger techs and those that have not been there that long will get any remaining scraps. I expect there will be none. But cry for me I deserve as built this company.
There may eventually be nothing left of these old type companies after the entitled finish plundering them.
Where I left I got sick of hearing how great the older techs had it. Work overtime and get a paid supper. How they worked very long hours but got perks for it. Plus how they could help each other finish jobs at the end of the day. Or went to coffee first thing in the morning after leaving the yard. Nope one tech now many jobs no helping each other. Better not even have a flat on the way to the first job let alone stop in for coffee.
How they have 30 plus years and even if fired their pension is guaranteed. their flame suit or version of golden parachute. Cry for us. I never got the good ole days and expect if I had stayed my pension would be little to nothing. They already froze management pensions at my old work. Thus they will get crap. Expect next contract the old timers will make sure they get theirs and screw those with less years. But cry for them.
I mean I read a post somewhere how a retired tech would go into a grocery store and get the old scraps of bread to feed to the birds (probably pigeons). How this was serving his community like he used to when working for his company. Another retired tech writing that post was almost in awe of the community service. I mean full retirement and full health care paid for so he could feed birds.
To me WTF. Feeding pigeons is not community service and not how I would spend retirement. But old time MA Bell employees can do no wrong. | |
| | grays
join:2006-02-14
Rochelle Park, NJ | Re: Cry for the old techs Sounds like sour grapes to me.Pay your dues buddy! | |
| | tim_kButtons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, KaseyPremium,VIP
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
kudos:13 | Two edits and most of it still doesn't make sense. | |
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slckusrPremium
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH
kudos:1 | Crying for work?! Shit hire me ill work 85+ hours a week, you dont even have to pay me prevailing union wage, and i wont complain that im working too hard or to much.
Lazy people be happy you have a job and with overtime it pays disgusting well. | |
| mh8199
join:2008-10-08
Sharon Hill, PA | jealous Most of you idiot posters really let your true colors show. Calling Union workers "lazy" and "cry babies". Its just jealousy that no one represents you in the workplace. If you do not want to be taken advantage of, organize in your workplace. Its a load of crap that ANYONE gets taken advantage of.
And this excuse of the "economic climate" is another byproduct of management propaganda. You could also say that people are out of work because they have no union to prevent layoffs.
Look at the financial reports, wall street is still turning record profits but main street is still losing jobs. Try climbing poles all day and see how you like it. | |
| | Reviews:
·magicjack.com
| Re: jealous said by mh8199:And this excuse of the "economic climate" is another byproduct of management propaganda. You could also say that people are out of work because they have no union to prevent layoffs. That's a good point.
But, there's no doubt that the self-serving "us versus them" mindset of organized labor (and organized management, through the socially-created corporate entity) is destructive and corrupt.
Late 2009, near the height of unemployment, our local grocery-store union decided it would strike two chains over what amounted to $10 a week. It was a total PR blunder. (Height of unemployment; more competition from Walmart; just 3 weeks before Thanksgiving and the start of the holidays.).
For starters, the union leadership didn't poll their members. They held a meeting that wasn't announced, in a building too small to hold all the people who attended (despite it being a secret), and polled those people.
Going into the strike, they lost tons of members. The two chains began hiring temporary workers. They received *tons* of applicants. Qualified people, like individuals with 20 years of management or engineering experience.
I'm not defending the way corporations are operated. But, unions seem to be the flip side of the same coin. Just two groups trying to stick it to the other regardless of the effect it has on the business generally.
The thing that stymies me is how we create corporate entities (through public law) and sell them like candy. We attach relatively meaningless restrictions such as meeting, reporting and organizational requirements.
That would be a perfect opportunity to apply meaningful requirements, such as those promoting workplace democracy. Nobody would be forced to submit to that. If executives want to operate completely for their self interest, they could remain a private company. They could forego the socially-created corporate entity (and all the socially-created benefits that come with it, benefits that obviously exist as evidenced by how eager business owner are to incorporate.).
It seems crazy that we (as a society) create corporations without any significant strings attached. We create them, knowing principals will operate for their own self interest even if it's harmful to the community. And, knowing workers will do the same thing (apathetic, no ownership in something they spend half their waking life doing, giving as little as they can). | |
| |  MadMANNPremium
join:2005-08-19
kudos:2 | said by mh8199:Try climbing poles all day and see how you like it. I do. And I'm thankful that I have a good paying and secure job with good benefits that lets me support my family. I look around at other family members and friends who are out of work (some of which were represented by unions, BTW) and can't help but feel lucky to have a job that requires some overtime when needed. The bottom line is that their customers need service. The same union cries foul when the company suggests bringing in temporary non-union help to get them through the backlog while their members cry even harder when asked to work more to meet demand. Union or no, if the company doesn't do well or loses enough customers, the job simply doesn't exist.
Maybe being thankful for a job that expects results and long hours sometimes, makes me some sort of weirdo. Maybe I have been brainwashed by the people who provide me employment in exchange for hard work. So be it. No matter how tired I am at the end of some weeks, my paycheck always reminds me that my kids are fed and warm in their beds under a good roof. I guess maybe because I have been unemployed myself and been in a situation where I didn't know where my next meal was going to come from, I look at it way differently than someone who has had steady work for so long, that they forget how the rest of the world works. And maybe because I did go through all of that, I AM a little jealous.
If any true colors are shown it is those of people who can take for granted gainful employment in a time where there are so many good people out of work. You can call that management propaganda all you want, but it is the truth and reality regardless of Wall Street says.
In the end, I hope that cell phones and other competition doesn't make it so that these people are put in a situation in the near future where they look back on this and regret that they complained about what they should have cherished. | |
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| | . Forced overtimes suck, I speak from experience. I used to work for AT&T and at one point we had forced OT for 9 months straight. My commute was an hour each way, coupled with a mandatory 1-hour lunch I had 15-hour days for 9 months. If you think you can keep up your productivity levels up for that long, you're kidding yourself.
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"In a fight between you and the world, bet on the world." - Franz Kafka | |
| | | Afraid of work? I spent 6 years in the military. Worked quite a few 12+ hour shifts, weekends, even weeks straight without a day off. No overtime pay. Now, I'm back in the civilian world working for a web hosting company and I worked 77 hours last week. 37 hours of time and a half pay. I'm not complaining. That's some sweet money in my pocket that I never even got the opportunity to get in the military.
Everyone whines and complains, but they generally don't see the big picture. | |
| |  Simba7I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT | Re: Afraid of work? I hear that. People bitch and whine that they're working too much.
How about you get off your ass and go 4 years? Then you might appreciate where you work instead of bitching about every little thing..
..if you survive.. | |
| | | slckusrPremium
join:2003-03-17
Maumee, OH
kudos:1 Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Afraid of work? said by Simba7:I hear that. People bitch and whine that they're working too much. How about you get off your ass and go 4 years? Then you might appreciate where you work instead of bitching about every little thing.. ..if you survive.. if only public service were required, some people migth understand and be thankful for what they have or are being given. | |
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| | | Maybe the big picture is there is more to life than money. I work to live, not live to work.
Seriously, 70+ hrs/wk mandatory would be miserable if it continued for any length of time. 1 or 2 weeks ok, or make it optional for the guys who want it.
I grew up in a town with a heavy GM presence. Back in high school, some guys got summer work at the GM plant. You aren't in the union until 90 days of employment. They would work the summer, get 89 days in, then be let go. There are a lot of people out of work right now, bringing in some temp. summer help seems like a good idea if possible. | |
| | | talz13
join:2006-03-15
Avon Lake, OH | Re: Afraid of work? said by rootbeer:Maybe the big picture is there is more to life than money. I work to live, not live to work. I agree! | |
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| | | said by Gandalf4503:Everyone whines and complains, but they generally don't see the big picture. Do *you* see the big picture? Wall Street is reaping record profits while the corporations refuse to higher new people. They're stockpiling profit to never-before-seen highs while simultaneously laying off employees. If you don't complain, you will be abused until you can take no more. Civilian life is not the military. You need to get that fact through your head. | |
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approval from:
CmmTch
| Who is really the bad guy? I would like to make a note actually.
The reason Union Wages seem so outrageous is that they are the only wages that have kept pace with inflation and the massively increased wealth in the united states. And even then, they likely haven't increased as much as the average executive salary.
Basically, workers have been getting paid less and less every year compared to profits, while executives and stockholders take a larger and larger portion of the pie.
To put it another way, executives and stockholders have been pushing wages, benefits, retirement plans for workers down, while taking more money for themselves.
How has this happened? Simple. unionization rates have gone down as well. Evidence you say? It is simple, look at Union wages and benefits compared to non-Union. It seems like a joke but only because our workers have been looted to the point where middle class means two parents working to afford a low end house as opposed to one parent working for a decent home, to the point where retirement is likely not going to happen for many/most of the people of this generation, to the point where a single health crisis is bankruptcy, even for many of the people who actually have insurance but the insurance itself is such a joke that it barely helps.
We have been robbed, simple and plain. Rich got richer, poor got poorer and the middle class evaporated. We've just simply been had, and all the people here looking for jobs and envying/blaming the Unions, you bought in to the lie. | |
| | Reviews:
·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Who is really the bad guy? said by HappyAnarchy :
The reason Union Wages seem so outrageous is that they are the only wages that have kept pace with inflation and the massively increased wealth in the united states. And even then, they likely haven't increased as much as the average executive salary. Likely hasn't? Average CEO pay has increased from 33x the average worker's pay to 300x. And that, over a period of just 23 years!
The same period that began with Ronald Reagan asking the question, "Are you better off today than you were 4 years ago?" If anyone complains about how the resulting three decades of deregulatory politics have enriched some more than others (whether "we're" better off today), they're greeted with reflexive, ideological shouts about "commies" and "socialists."
said by HappyAnarchy :
Basically, workers have been getting paid less and less every year compared to profits, while executives and stockholders take a larger and larger portion of the pie.
A good book documenting what you describe: Free lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (And Stick You with the Bill). | |
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Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| more interested in the end result? are services delivered better? is DSL making any inroads? more customers serviced? wait times and consumer complaints down? if not, that's alot of work without alot of progress... so let's think positive about this.. at least until the watchful eyes of the regulators are gone, THEN we'll see if those 70 hour work weeks and all the so-called progress stays in that column.
least we forget these are the verizon sell-off companies that tend to go bankrupt after a while. | |
| | | Verizon still working on sold-off lines I stopped by the side of the road yesterday to talk to a couple of Verizon workers who've been parked at the same spot all week. Because it's near my troublesome (and still screwed-up) tower, I wanted to find out if they were there to fix the backhaul issue.
What I learned is they're actually working on landlines that were sold to Frontier. Because of a major interstate reconstruction nearby they had to sink the lines deeper beneath the roadbed. I was polite and didn't laugh when one gentleman informed me that Frontier is going to bring high speed internet up my way "but it'll take a while." Maybe after they emerge from bankruptcy?
But VZW is definitely hoping to sweep customers out from under them. I'm still shocked that tech support says we're getting a new tower just two miles north of my house!! Where are they going to tie in the network, I wonder? I'm rural! I have lots of questions and if they promise me LTE, I'll bake 'em some cookies. | |
|  heat84Bit Torrent Apologist
join:2004-03-11
Fort Lauderdale, FL
1 edit | No sympathy for union overtime complaints here Unions have become the evil they were created to fight. So why should we feel sorry for you being overworked?
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Bit Torrent is my DVR. | |
| | Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: No sympathy for union overtime complaints here I retired from the telco (SBC), there are always some employees who wanted no part of overtime. Most were willing to put in a fair amount of overtime, but in this summers heat I can see where it would wear you down.
Manditory overtime was never very productive after a couple weeks. Everybody gets overtired and stressed and productivity goes to pot. | |
| | | | You should feel empathy for the common worker. When you are hired into a union comp. you have no choice but to join and pay dues regardless on whether or not you feel that union is doing whats right for the common worker. I, the common worker, am not complaining about the overtime...I'm eating them up as they are not likey going to last. Besides the problem is not the union, its the company's management style that has caused all the overtime. (Verizon) | |
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Depends on the type of mandatory overtime.
There is hard and easy mandatory overtime. Easy overtime is waiting for a tester or technical support technician to become available while heating the seat. Remember Gas Heats Best. On the other hands is hard overtime where the employee is doing actual work like doing a cable throw or auditing customer service records. Hard overtime takes it toll because by the end of the tour the employee has actually worked 70 hours and is exhausted. Unless the Union has a bowel movement over using contractors the Verizon Frontier transition can go smoothly no muss no fuss without turning employees into jello by using contractors. During one period of work overload the company brought in contractors that worked for Nortel. Watching the Nortel Contractors install and configure a system versus the company technicians was like comparing recruits to a precision drill team.
