dslreports logo
site
spacer

spacer
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


view:
topics flat nest 
Comments on news posted 2011-06-23 09:37:35: Back in 2008 we noted how the RIAA was planning to ditch their scorched earth legal assault against P2P users, and replace it with a "graduated response" or three strikes approach, wherein users who repeatedly engaged in copyright infringement receiv.. ..

page: 1 · 2

Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
Premium
join:2003-02-20
Charlotte, NC
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Suspected = guilty no matter what

a suspected pirate may be allowed to visit only the top 200 Web sites until they stop illegal file sharing.
Totally unfair until you've got hard proof of me "pirating" I'm a paying customer and the ISP shouldn't be able to tell me what I can and can't visit because they suspect me of being a pirate.
--
That was the wild boar.... Moo!
My podcast: The Banzai Beat »www.banzaibeat.com

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 recommendation

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by Chiyo:

the ISP shouldn't be able to tell me what I can and can't visit because they suspect me of being a pirate.

Their TOS already gives them that right.

It was inevitable that the ISPs got onboard with discouraging copyright infringement. They are the ones in the best position to be enforcement cops. The MPAA & RIAA are helping cover the costs. And the White House is backing the agreement. It isn't three strikes, but ISPs will take actions against violators they feel is appropriate.
--
Record your speedtest.net results in DSLReports SpeedWave
»www.speedtest.net/wave/afe201cb84d45c88

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by FFH:

Their TOS already gives them that right.

Most peer to peer programs run randomized encryption by default, and DDL sites are inherently immune to this. Sure some non-tech savvy people will get caught in the crossfire, but the real pirates will keep on like usual.

As long as anti-piracy measures are this far behind I have no problem with them.

If this is how they are going to attack piracy, the pirates need not worry.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

They aren't, and that's part of Karl's point. The few tend to ruin things for the masses. That theory isn't exclusive to ISPs, but they are the latest to clamp down. Thank your local copyright infringer....

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by openbox9:

They aren't, and that's part of Karl's point. The few tend to ruin things for the masses. That theory isn't exclusive to ISPs, but they are the latest to clamp down. Thank your local copyright infringer....

What exactly is being ruined?

Pirates will not be affected by this, obfuscation and encryption layers have been standard on P2P for the last few years.

Your ISP can't tell if your on a corporate VPN or P2P unless they actually peer with you.

Good luck with that.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

Services aren't being ruined or impeded for the infringers. Rather everyone else, which is my point.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

Oh, Well yea that's obvious.

Good thing I only use the internet to pirate.

axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

1 recommendation

Why do "the masses" have to be inconvenienced then if there is no chance that the MPAA/RIAA can combat highly skilled P2P users? Your justification does not fit the perpetrator of the crime and yet you applaud the innocent being inconvenienced or potentially even being incorrectly accused? Where's the logic in that? Again openbox9 you seem to not understand how networks actually work and why punishing "the masses" does nothing to address the real problem.

Even considering the coming of IPV6 with everyone getting a unique IP address cannot surmount the encrypted VPN problem nor the private direct download services doing 30-day usenet backups. Until a major change in internet protocols occurs intellectual property owners are just going to have to cope. Suing the "low hanging fruit" users not skilled enough to cover their tracks again does not address the real problem.

Punish the real criminals, not your paying customers.

No I do not use P2P illegally nor do I condone that activity. I also however have not bought an MPAA or RIAA product (knowingly) for more than 10 years now until they come to their senses and stop suing and/or inconveniencing their paying customers.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

Where do you see my applause for the inconvenience? I'm on the other side of this argument, so perhaps I made my point poorly.

Please, stop with the "that's how networks work" thing. It's irrelevant to most of your arguments.

Uncle Paul

join:2003-02-04
USA
kudos:1
said by FFH:

said by Chiyo:

the ISP shouldn't be able to tell me what I can and can't visit because they suspect me of being a pirate.

It was inevitable that the ISPs got onboard with discouraging copyright infringement. They are the ones in the best position to be enforcement cops. The MPAA & RIAA are helping cover the costs. And the White House is backing the agreement. It isn't three strikes, but ISPs will take actions against violators they feel is appropriate.

How about MPAA and RIAA foot 100% of the cost. Why should an ISP shoulder the cost of the MPAA or RIAA recover its lost revenue (once lost revenue is actually proven).

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Greenwood, IN
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by Uncle Paul:

How about MPAA and RIAA foot 100% of the cost. Why should an ISP shoulder the cost of the MPAA or RIAA recover its lost revenue (once lost revenue is actually proven).

You have to keep in mind, Verizon and AT&T aren't just the ISP anymore. They are also selling the video service, audio channels, etc. Reducing pirated downloads results in more people subscribing to their premium channels. (or so they are spinning it)

camper
Premium
join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by Camelot One:

You have to keep in mind, Verizon and AT&T aren't just the ISP anymore. They are also selling the video service, audio channels, etc. Reducing pirated downloads results in more people subscribing to their premium channels. (or so they are spinning it)

Comcast, the new owner of NBC Universal, is also a content provider that wants to protect its content.

C_Chipperson
Monster Rain
Premium
join:2009-01-17
00000
kudos:3
Oh, Uncle Paul! You're gonna get caught no matter what for what you're downloading!!

heat84
Bit Torrent Apologist

join:2004-03-11
Fort Lauderdale, FL
said by Chiyo:

a suspected pirate may be allowed to visit only the top 200 Web sites until they stop illegal file sharing.

WTF? (Heath Ledger Batman pic here) What country was that that's trying to block specific sites (because they're porn)? Are we them now?
--
Bit Torrent is my DVR.

mob
On the next level..
Premium
join:2000-10-07
Reviews:
·SureWest Internet

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by heat84:

said by Chiyo:

a suspected pirate may be allowed to visit only the top 200 Web sites until they stop illegal file sharing.

WTF? (Heath Ledger Batman pic here) What country was that that's trying to block specific sites (because they're porn)? Are we them now?

Since you had to ask, yes.
--
Ich habe kein Mitleid - Me
You're a daisy if you do. - Doc Holliday
And as always, have nice day.

Augustus III
If Only Rome Could See Us Now....

join:2001-01-25
Gainesville, GA

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by mob:

said by heat84:

said by Chiyo:

a suspected pirate may be allowed to visit only the top 200 Web sites until they stop illegal file sharing.

WTF? (Heath Ledger Batman pic here) What country was that that's trying to block specific sites (because they're porn)? Are we them now?

Since you had to ask, yes.

worse. the others usually do it out of moral justification and we do it out of money.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

Money *is* moral justification in the corporate world!
Chubbysumo

join:2009-12-01
Superior, WI
Reviews:
·Charter
said by mob:

said by heat84:

said by Chiyo:

a suspected pirate may be allowed to visit only the top 200 Web sites until they stop illegal file sharing.

WTF? (Heath Ledger Batman pic here) What country was that that's trying to block specific sites (because they're porn)? Are we them now?

Since you had to ask, yes.

If they do block sites, they will get sued for civil rights violations. The only thing ISPs ToS can say they can block are expressly illegal sites, as in, the sites that host CP, and other bottomfeeder trash(criminal offenses). Since copyright infringment isnt not a criminal offense, they cannot block it. It will not happen anytime soon, and if it does, expect the EFF, and the ACLU to be involved.

BHNtechXpert
BHN Staff
Premium,VIP
join:2006-02-16
Saint Petersburg, FL
kudos:147

1 recommendation

Not defending anyone here but through deep packet inspection they have the ability to determine if the files you are downloading fit the signature of a pirated file with little to no effort. I have no problems with them targeting pirated content (movies, music) for this specific effort simply because it is theft and there is no denying that part and if you need to send a legit file to a friend there are far more appropriate ways to do so anyway.

Other forms of P2P traffic should be excluded however and the industry does have the way to identify which is which and I won't entertain excuses from them claiming otherwise because I know better first hand. Now I realize you P2P purests will cry foul over my statement and I'm prepared to deal with it so flame on boyz
--
"I can’t give you a surefire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time."
~ Herbert Bayard Swope

TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Da Bronx
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Clearwire Wireless

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by BHNtechXpert:

Not defending anyone here but through deep packet inspection they have the ability to determine if the files you are downloading fit the signature of a pirated file with little to no effort.

Is that so? So my encrypted OpenVPN tunnel to Toronto is viewable by my local ISP? How so? For every measure there is a counter-measure. The way to stop this is not to force the square peg into a round hole, but to re-design the peg.

Attempting to force a 50 year-old business model into 21st century technology and culture, is absurd, and will certainly fail.

BTW, it was DPI which prompted me to go VPN, not piracy. If you start aiming binoculars at my windows, I will put up curtains. That's just human nature.

Bob
--
"Remember, remember the fifth of November.
Gunpowder, Treason and Plot.
I see no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot."

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people"


BHNtechXpert
BHN Staff
Premium,VIP
join:2006-02-16
Saint Petersburg, FL
kudos:147

1 recommendation

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by TamaraB:

said by BHNtechXpert:

Not defending anyone here but through deep packet inspection they have the ability to determine if the files you are downloading fit the signature of a pirated file with little to no effort.

Is that so? So my encrypted OpenVPN tunnel to Toronto is viewable by my local ISP? How so? For every measure there is a counter-measure. The way to stop this is not to force the square peg into a round hole, but to re-design the peg.

Attempting to force a 50 year-old business model into 21st century technology and culture, is absurd, and will certainly fail.

BTW, it was DPI which prompted me to go VPN, not piracy. If you start aiming binoculars at my windows, I will put up curtains. That's just human nature.

Bob

I wasn't talking about VPN's at all...wasn't even part of the discussion. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I don't blame you for using a VPN tunnel and it is well within your right to do so. Nothing is going to stop that but the masses don't do what you do and ultimately that might actually promote the growth of new business in that arena to work around it. Also there is almost always a significant performance hit when you go the VPN route partly due to technology and the other the lack of decent provider out there. For a time this will certainly be a work around for those who insist on engaging in this activity BUT for most people this will be a deterrant which is ultimately the goal. They realize they can't stop it...they just want to limit it as much as possible.
--
"I can’t give you a surefire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time."
~ Herbert Bayard Swope

firephoto
We the people
Premium
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

So when lots of people upload their data to the cloud for connivence or a backup those uploading their music and video collection will get throttled? Not likely but anyone using bittorrent for anything will see the hammer come down because it's not associated with a service that skims the money off the top.

It's just fully dumb to provide a data connection they turn around and tell people they need to stick to the popular commercial websites or get flagged as a pirate.

I'm my data and my rules where it goes, if you want to snoop on my data prepare for the consequences.
--
Say no to JAMS!

Tanshin

join:2009-07-18
West Simsbury, CT
kudos:1
What happens if I go to download, say, Ubuntu via torrent because their servers are running slow? Does my initiation of P2P traffic that's unsecured, unmasked, etc make me a pirate to an ISP? How are they determining illegal file transfers vs legitimate file transfers?

BHNtechXpert
BHN Staff
Premium,VIP
join:2006-02-16
Saint Petersburg, FL
kudos:147

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by Tanshin:

What happens if I go to download, say, Ubuntu via torrent because their servers are running slow? Does my initiation of P2P traffic that's unsecured, unmasked, etc make me a pirate to an ISP? How are they determining illegal file transfers vs legitimate file transfers?

No you would have no issues there whatsoever despite what the less educated about the subject will say. They have the ability to know the difference.
--
"I can’t give you a surefire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time."
~ Herbert Bayard Swope

Tanshin

join:2009-07-18
West Simsbury, CT
kudos:1

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

I suppose you could argue that there wouldn't be anti-p2p IP sniffers on those torrents, but how do you know that ISPs still won't classify it as pirating in a hasty manner? What if they want to save money and will just start looking at P2P in general (I believe Comcast throttles all P2P traffic already)? When an ISP accuses somebody of pirating, are they required to provide justification?

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

said by Tanshin:

I suppose you could argue that there wouldn't be anti-p2p IP sniffers on those torrents, but how do you know that ISPs still won't classify it as pirating in a hasty manner? What if they want to save money and will just start looking at P2P in general (I believe Comcast throttles all P2P traffic already)? When an ISP accuses somebody of pirating, are they required to provide justification?

I think you misunderstand how this will work. It will still be MPAA & RIAA contractors monitoring P2P traffic, identifying violators, and then notifying ISPs. The ISPs won't be monitoring all P2P traffic themselves looking for violations. They only get involved AFTER someone else makes the accusation.
--
Record your speedtest.net results in DSLReports SpeedWave
»www.speedtest.net/wave/afe201cb84d45c88

Tanshin

join:2009-07-18
West Simsbury, CT
kudos:1

Re: Suspected = guilty no matter what

Ah, well that makes me feel better then. If it was just ISPs then this would be totally wrong :P
Bangy

join:2000-12-20
Lincoln, RI
Cox has been doing this already for years. Matter of fact, most ISP's do.

BHNtechXpert
BHN Staff
Premium,VIP
join:2006-02-16
Saint Petersburg, FL
kudos:147
said by Tanshin:

I suppose you could argue that there wouldn't be anti-p2p IP sniffers on those torrents, but how do you know that ISPs still won't classify it as pirating in a hasty manner? What if they want to save money and will just start looking at P2P in general (I believe Comcast throttles all P2P traffic already)? When an ISP accuses somebody of pirating, are they required to provide justification?

I think you don't understand how DPI works. A Ubuntu file will have a significantly different "signature" or bit pattern than lets say a music or movie file will. Tagging a particular file would be useless because the pirates would just remove the tag. They can't however change the fingerprint or bit pattern of a copyright works however without having an impact on the quality of the movie or music and that's how ISP's will know the difference between the two.
--
"I can’t give you a surefire formula for success, but I can give you a formula for failure: try to please everybody all the time."
~ Herbert Bayard Swope
gorehound

join:2009-06-19
Portland, ME
these greedy assholes can fuck off.
200 websites probably all owned by the MAFIAA as your punishment.

TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Da Bronx
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Clearwire Wireless

A Business opportunity

I see a real business opportunity here for the VPN providers. Especially those really good ones in Canada like Carat Networks. Aside from defeating DPI, NXDomain hijacking, and port blocking, they are fast, reliable, cheap, and out of reach of US court issued subpoenas.

Bob

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••

JasonOD

@comcast.net

Sad but predictable outcome

While the MPAA/RIAA overreaches at times, they're not going to give up on chasing the bad apples. And as usual, those bad apples spoil the bunch. We'll all pay more because of this.

I don't understand the last point about targeting suspected users as being unreliable. ISP's know exactly what IP is assigned to whom, and 'accidentally' having your connection used/compromised by a guilty third party is no longer a defense. I know mistakes get made, just not at the level you seem to project.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Os

join:2011-01-26
US
Reviews:
·Comcast

Good for the RIAA/MPAA

Good for you guys in getting what you want! I don't care anyway, your content is worthless to me. I won't download your stuff illegally, but I won't buy it either.

And every single day less and less people want your content. Enjoy protecting those copyrights on a continually worthless product!

•••••••••••

Bill Neilson
Premium
join:2009-07-08
Arlington, VA

How they determine who is guilty and such will

be quite interesting as the current way is IMO is a bit of a joke reliability wise.

The amount of stories we will hear about people doing nothing and getting slammed will be humorous and sad at the same time.

I also suspect lawsuits will begin flying and hopefully someone can pin down the RIAA/MPAA

odreian615

join:2006-01-18
Chicago, IL

Comcast is already doing it

Someone posted the letter on reddit a couple days ago
nysports4evr
Premium
join:2010-01-23
kudos:1

Re: Comcast is already doing it

They've been sending letters for a long time, they do not throttle your service in any way or impose any kinds of restrictions. Just a letter.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Premptive capping

ISPs of course jump at the chance to offer little or no service for the same high monthly fee. Wonder if they will penalize any torrenting, infringing or not, since all data transfer is theft from their prospective.

fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
Premium
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA

2 recommendations

American GFW?

Every day the US gets closer and closer to emulating China. A conservative, single-party government, unrestricted capitalism, dismantling government regulations on safety and environment, censoring internet, citizens being "detained for questioning" simply for protesting...

My partner in Shanghai is forced to use a VPN for his internet use, and I guess I will have to join him, now.

•••••
tg1

join:2003-08-16
New Hyde Park, NY

Get Encrypted!

Well maybe it's time to push SSL in everything....(or VPN)

Also, I'm curious to know that what these ISPs getting in return (If I get throttled I'm jumping ship from FIOS).
Ricanlegend

join:2011-05-18
Bronx, NY

Re: Get Encrypted!

First off people can always get VPN, I rather pay the VPN Then these RIAA cockroach, and if my internet ever get throttled to slower speeds i will only pay half of my bill and tell them to kiss me ass

Camaro
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

We will see

To do anything that is mentioned there for newer practices to implement on a customer would be one a major TOS change that i don't think for once they are going to pass by the average joe who doesn't take the time to read it cover to cover,plus the big one advertisement,there is no way in hell that any agency that oversees any of this is going to let them do this,most people don't even know the the different speed packages let alone throw in throttling and who knows what else they come up with.And like everyone said the real pirates already probably know a way around.
Papageno

join:2011-01-26
Portland, OR

How do usenet binary groups fit into all this?

Everyone is always talking about P2P but no one talks about the more old-school Usenet.
kiamsiamdala

join:2001-11-05
Utica, MI

Re: How do usenet binary groups fit into all this?

That's due to the first rule of Usenet.

wicked_wifi
Are You Wifi Compatible
Premium
join:2003-11-04
Cooleemee, NC

Re: How do usenet binary groups fit into all this?

Amen.

pryvaceee

@telus.net

DPI is a Privacy violation

One thing us peasants forget, is that DPI(deep packet inspection) is actually ILLEGAL, as it invades our Privacy Rights. It's illegal to come into my yard or my home and search my stuff. It's illegal to put a wiretap on my phone and listen to my conversations. It's illegal to open my mail in transit or when it's sitting in a post box.

With DPI, the ISP could easily create a dump file that sends certain data(P2P) of your Internet communications into a folder for review by the copyright mafia or the ISP, who have ZERO legal grounds to get your personal data without a warrant. And any passwords entered(into your download/file locker sites), that are not encrypted, could easily be stolen and used by the ISP or copyright mafia to royally screw your life over.

Are ISP's using DPI for monitoring of their users communications with certain sites that users complain about problems with their ISP? So easy to do, just set up the system to create a dump file for when certain sites are accessed and then compare the time of the posting(along with unencrypted posting data), with the time one of their users were there. Also noted in forums as, "my ISP just called 3 hours after I complained on the forum and then fixed my problem. How the f*ck did they know it was me?" And then a shill makes a lame excuse(random call) to cover up the DPI crime.

The main crime of this whole suspension, site blocking scheme is, no evidence has been presented that would actually stand up in a court of law with a real judge and prosecutor. Entrapment is still a crime, so when the copyright mafia sets up a honeypot that has copy's of the copyrighted file for download, they are actually giving you legal permission to download that file. And when the copyrighted file is labeled as some non-copyrighted works, the copyright mafia is GUILTY of the crime of entrapment, as well as EXTORTION when they send your ISP a letter for payment to be forwarded, stating the imaginary crime.

runzero

join:2005-09-16
DC

Re: DPI is a Privacy violation

The MAFIAA is already a de facto part of the government. It'll probably take a revolution to strip those bastards' lobbying bribery rights.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

nostalgia..

didn't the cable companies try this filtering nonsense in the late 90s and earlly 2000's? I dont' think it got Comcast a very happy customer base then...
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ

I smell...

I smell a lawsuit brewing...
moes

join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT
Reviews:
·Revol Wireless
·Optimum Online

lol

Go right ahead and see if I will comply. There are enough isp's out there that I can switch over and over. Until they stop black mailing and running around like fucking 2 years with there hands stuck in the cookie jar, then I see no reason to even lift a finger to stop what I am doing.

anon6

@comcast.net

less internet use

all this is doing is causing people to use the internet less for fear of getting caught.

PRTV

@208.87.137.x

So ISPs just take thier word for it????

So the "copyright owners" complain to the ISP that someone is downloading content they "own", so who does the fact checking that they do in fact actually own the content? Do ISP's just take the content "owners" word for it?

Also what is to stop studios claiming there infringement going on when what they really want to do is eliminate competition???

anon7

@comcast.net

content provider

What these content providers need to learn is that their content isn't always worth paying top dollar for, people can wait till the price drops, goes on sale, etc. The media on the internet would be the same price as retail but you would get none of the benefits of owning the physical copy. This is why media on the internet needs to be way cheaper than the retail version/physical version.

IH8ATTNOW

@sbcglobal.net

Re: content provider

So does this 3 strikes includes streaming from youtube or one of those online websites with embedded videos like metacafe.com or break.com?

And how do they know what I downloaded was illegal.

I can download 3 large presentation files sent to me by my company and the MPAA and RIAA can claim I downloaded 3 movies or music files!!

DEEZ NUTS

@verizon.net
LOOKS LIKE ILL HAVE TO GET A CLEC DSL LIKE EX:COVAD
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

It's truly amazing...

...the arguments some apologists will come up with in an attempt to justify turning a blind eye to crime.
Bangy

join:2000-12-20
Lincoln, RI

Re: It's truly amazing...

no, whats REALLY criminal is holding closed door meetings with the govt. in order to get the legislation passed that favors outdated business models while attempting to quash the fair use clause as if the public has no stake in the outcome. Also, I'll be damned if I have to pay taxes so large media companies can use various US govt. agencies (or have new ones created) as their copyright police and the courts as a revenue stream. The companies need to look long and hard at how peoples media consumption has changed and figure out how to monetize it. Trying to lock up or guilt millions of people around the globe into paying is utterly moronic no matter what one thinks is "ethical" or not.

drale

@wideopenwest.com

how to get internet back?

if you get throttled to the top 200 sites, how long do you have to go until you are considered not a pirate anymore? how do they tell? are you directly monitored or do you have to hope or wait for RIAA to never come across you again for the next month or so in the vast internet?