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Comments on news posted 2011-06-27 14:30:49: According to the New York Times, cable boxes and DVRs are among some of the heaviest consumers of electricity in the home, and when bundled with large-screen televisions can challenge the biggest home energy hogs. ..

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67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

What's the incentive?

There isn't one . . .

Typo: ". . . in 2010, In 2010"
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Correct. The OEMs don't care if their consumers pay higher electric bills. The STB retailers (i.e. cable companies) don't care if consumers pay higher electric bills. Until "green" is cool enough to matter, minimal incentive exists.
NetKrazy
join:2007-11-29
Littleton, CO

NetKrazy

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

There is also going to be alot of logic that has to come into it that probably lends to a great deal of the hesitation..

Taking tivo as example.
short of basically running the "live" buffer on paused shows direct to memory the hard-drive is always going to be spinning. Considering alot of people do 'pause' to be able to skip commercials this makes things more interesting.

Auto sleep mode.. "But I'm watching that" you don't want to have to hit "yes I'm watching this" every couple of hours just because you don't change channels...

I think that's the problem you face when you look at a DVR is the user experience aspects. Short of options that can turn off. I think you biggest benefit is going to come in the form of better electronics. SSD's and lower power components but those components have a price premium that wouldn't motivate sales.

Course you could also work to drive down the price of electricity. We're a power hungry people that as you make things more efficient that efficiency is probably lost on quantity. That $10 you save probably got eaten up by something else and then some.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Funny you should mention tivo... I checked this morning and my four tivo's (plus a DTV multiswitch, and OTA dist amp) are using 123W. It costs about 30$ per year to run them. Saying they draw more power than your refridgerator is simply misdirection... the fridge runs very infrequently; the dvr runs 24/7 (for obvious reasons.)

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

1 recommendation

ArrayList to 67845017

Premium Member

to 67845017
there would be an incentive if consumers had the option to buy a stb. there would be even more incentive if there were more than 3 models that works on a given cable system.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Yep. That was basically my point. Captive market means nothing good ever gets done.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned) to ArrayList

Member

to ArrayList
said by ArrayList:

there would be an incentive if consumers had the option to buy a stb. there would be even more incentive if there were more than 3 models that works on a given cable system.

Consumers do have the option to buy a STB.

It's called the CableCARD.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Yes, because as we all know, cable card adoption has gone easy as apple pie and marketed widely to Joe and Jane America.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Yeap. That's worked out so well consumer electronics makers stopped bothering with cablecard support several years ago. Go to your local electronics megastore and find a CC enabled TV. There aren't any anymore.

(Tivo, Inc. has too much invested in it now to walk away from it.)
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Go to your local electronics megastore and try to find any useful device for a reasonable price. Good luck! Here's a cable on sale for one cent:
»www.amazon.com/gp/produc ··· 01OYBAUK

Here's that exact same cable by the same manufacturer at Best Buy for $36.99:
»www.bestbuy.com/site/Dyn ··· =8934709

And they wonder why online retailers are killing the brick and mortar store. The CableCARD is more alive than ever with the Ceton InfiniTV 4 now a mature product that gets cheaper and cheaper and the HDHomeRun Prime due to launch next month. Both solutions should quite handily kick the crap out of the cable company's slow, expensive, limited boxes.
Expand your moderator at work
talz13
join:2006-03-15
Avon, OH

talz13 to 45612019

Member

to 45612019

Re: What's the incentive?

said by 45612019:

Go to your local electronics megastore and try to find any useful device for a reasonable price. Good luck!

Doesn't even need to be a 'reasonable' price, they just don't EXIST! You could walk into best buy, slap 5 grand down on the counter and ask for their finest CableCard ready TV. They'll just give you a dumb stare and say, what's a CableCard?
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to 45612019

Member

to 45612019
Odd. Let me restate, since I must have offended earlier.

The cable companies don't advertise the cable card, so there's little exposure to the masses regarding cable cards. A person doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Also, if cable card doesn't have PPV/On-Demand, the demand is going to be less. I don't have my own boxes for that very reason. And I used to have 2 ReplayTVs and loved them. I've got a couple of HTPCs at home, but again, without On-Demand, I don't feel any compulsion to get a cable card and tuner.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer to 45612019

Premium Member

to 45612019
WTH does a firewire cable have to do with anything? Go find a TV with a cablecard slot in it. If you do, it's used or been sitting in a warehouse for a few years. CE manufacturers gave up on the cablecard due to SDV, DFAST, OCAP and all the other bullshit from the industry (i.e. Cable Labs) -- most notably the fuckers writing new standard every year, providing no certification process for those constantly changing specs, and the MSOs never implementing any of them.

To this day, the STB from your cable provider is not a certified device. They will *always* be able to do things certified devices cannot. And for the record, their STBs are CC devices too, so they do very much know how to set one up without breaking it constantly -- which only goes to prove they are/were intentionally screwing with a-la-cart cablecard accounts.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Who said anything about buying a TV with a CableCARD slot in it? You're wanting to scrap that expensive cable box rental by buying a whole damn TV?

The Ceton InfiniTV 4 and HDHomeRun Prime are sufficient, much cheaper solutions.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Re: What's the incentive?

That was the whole point that started the CC crap... no more cable box - your tv can tune encrypted digital cable with a CableCARD(TM)! It's the 21st century version of a "cable ready" TV. (except the cable industry actually successfully killed this one.)

By the time people were starting to buy new tv's with CC slots, TWC had already made plans to make them useless -- i.e. SDV[1] -- specifically to force people to continue renting a cable box (or 3.) Others quickly followed their lead. STB rental is a significant source of income.

[1] recall the leaked memo of their plan to move *all* channels to SDV making every certified 3rd party device useless.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

SDV works fine with the Ceton InfiniTV 4.

You're right that the cable industry did everything they could to slow down/damage the CableCARD, but as it stands now it is a much better solution than the cable company DVRs. It just needed a looong time to mature.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

PPV? On-Demand?
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

Who cares? Who cares?

That's all I have to say to that.

Listen, if the gimmicky stuff on On Demand and the overpriced stuff on pay-per-view is worth paying an extra $20 a month for you, then by all means, rent a box from the cable company.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

1 edit

67845017 (banned)

Member

Re: What's the incentive?

So the answer is "no".

And, for us, the difference in cost is $14.50 between cable card and HD DVR.

I like how you point to On-Demand as a gimmick to support your position. We've found that in our household it's probably one of the most frequently used features. We don't do PPV, but On-Demand is great.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

1 edit

cramer to 45612019

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to 45612019

SDV works fine with the Ceton InfiniTV 4.

quote:
Supports Switched Digital Video

As cable providers move to Switched Digital Video (SDV) technology, rest assured that your Ceton InfiniTV 4 supports SDV Tuning Adapters as well.
Right. It'll use the same horrible hack Tivo is forced to use. This is the very technology that pushed the CE industry right off the cliff. (and it's only supported by M$ Media Center)

Edit: And to return to the topic... a $400 tuner card + tuning adapter + Windows 7 Media Center PC is going to draw much more power than even 2 cable DVRs.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned) to 67845017

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to 67845017
said by 67845017:

Yes, because as we all know, cable card adoption has gone easy as apple pie and marketed widely to Joe and Jane America.

Ignorance doesn't mean the product does not exist. It's readily available and pretty easy to set up (once you're done dealing with the bumbling techs at the cable companies).

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to 45612019

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to 45612019
said by 45612019:

said by ArrayList:

there would be an incentive if consumers had the option to buy a stb. there would be even more incentive if there were more than 3 models that works on a given cable system.

Consumers do have the option to buy a STB.

It's called the CableCARD.

I don't know of any MSO that will sell you a cable card. they will let you RENT one though.

thedragonmas
Premium Member
join:2007-12-28
Albany, GA
Netgear R6300 v2
ARRIS SB6180

thedragonmas

Premium Member

Re: What's the incentive?

said by dvd536:

said by 45612019:

said by ArrayList:

there would be an incentive if consumers had the option to buy a stb. there would be even more incentive if there were more than 3 models that works on a given cable system.

Consumers do have the option to buy a STB.

It's called the CableCARD.

I don't know of any MSO that will sell you a cable card. they will let you RENT one though.

after 5 or 6 truck rolls to get it to work right. just search the mediacom forum to see what i mean.

it "could" work but cable companies dont want it to because they want to keep that cash cow of box rental going strong. so they make it as difficult as possible.
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned) to dvd536

Member

to dvd536
said by dvd536:

said by 45612019:

said by ArrayList:

there would be an incentive if consumers had the option to buy a stb. there would be even more incentive if there were more than 3 models that works on a given cable system.

Consumers do have the option to buy a STB.

It's called the CableCARD.

I don't know of any MSO that will sell you a cable card. they will let you RENT one though.

$2.50 a month rental fee is better than $18 a month rental fee.

You can also purchased CableCARDs on eBay and get them working with certain providers.

Ultibeam
join:2008-05-27
USA

Ultibeam

Member

Old Hardware

Is anyone really surprised considering many STBs are 5 or more years old in design? These boxes get super hot and they run constantly even in standby mode. As mentioned above there is no incentives to build efficiency into these boxes when you can't buy a STB.

syslock
Premium Member
join:2007-02-03
La La Land

syslock

Premium Member

Re: Old Hardware

My cable box is a lump oh junk!

Now my home PVR/Media server is an even bigger
energy hog! lol
45612019 (banned)
join:2004-02-05
New York, NY

45612019 (banned) to Ultibeam

Member

to Ultibeam
Go get a Ceton or HDHomeRun Prime and build your own energy efficient box.
ncbill
Premium Member
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC

ncbill

Premium Member

Re: Old Hardware

Media center PCs will use more power than an efficient cable box like the Tivo Premiere (only 25 watts).

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Hmmm...

Time to whip out the Kill-A-Watt and find out for sure.
axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

axiomatic

Member

Re: Hmmm...

I've done it with my kill-o-watt. Unfortunately I don't have the data with me at work to share with you all but my Comcast Scientific Atlanta SA8300HDC was far more power hungry than my Tivo S3, HD, and Premier XL are by a long shot. It actually one of the reasons I started using Tivo's in the first place.

No I'm not saying the Tivo isn't a power hog as well, its just no where near the hog the SA8300HDC is.
mathfaster
join:2005-09-23
Upland, CA

mathfaster

Member

Turn it off when not in use?

I turn off one TV set and satellite receiver overnight via a wall switch that was designed to turn off the electrical outlet. When you turn it on it takes quite awhile to have the satellite receiver reestablish itself. IIRC my DISH receivers consume something like 40W when on. Have put my DISH DVR on a timer. Think that one consumes 60W continuously when on.

John290
@tmc.edu

John290

Anon

Transmission Line Tax

We pay for roads thru a gas tax. Why not have the electronic manufacturers pay for electric transmission lines thru a small, fraction-of-a-percent, power tax? This would cause them to pass this along to the consumer which would make it more expensive than competitors that had more efficient products. That would give manufacturers a hard cost incentive and marketing reasons to engineer more efficient products.
jjeffeory
jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN

1 recommendation

jjeffeory

Member

Re: Transmission Line Tax

Oh great, let's pass another tax to the people. I want to spend more money than ever.
AstroBoy
join:2008-08-08
Parkville, MD

AstroBoy

Member

MythTV can turn off

The open source DVR called MythTV can turn off when not needed. It programs the power supply to turn on just before the next scheduled recording. I bet that would save 90%, at least while not in use.

One problem the FIOS DVR has, it is never off. Even if you "turn it off", it is really still on and recording 2 channels. It should really power off at this point and turn back on before the next recording.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

One conspiracy

Here is one conspiracy. The power companies that are offering FFTH are picking the most in efficent boxes to deploy. Less efficency means more power used which means more money made.

* I don't believe this one *
zed2608
Premium Member
join:2007-09-30
Cleveland, TN

zed2608

Premium Member

Re: One conspiracy

said by battleop:

Here is one conspiracy. The power companies that are offering FFTH are picking the most in efficent boxes to deploy. Less efficency means more power used which means more money made.

* I don't believe this one *

doubtful power companys have incentive to lower end users power use since it costs money to upgrade peak power use

as far as cable boxes go i know they use tons of energy the cable companys are more concerned with getting parts that are cheap as can be less concerned with energy afterall who pays the electric bill not cable
Bobcat79
Premium Member
join:2001-02-04

Bobcat79

Premium Member

They overstate the power consumption

My Scientific Atlanta 4200 cable box (made in 2004) uses 17.4 Watts when on and 16.7 Watts when it’s off. At 18 c/kWh, that’s about $27 per year. It takes 3 1/2 minutes to boot.

•••

SLD
Premium Member
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

SLD

Premium Member

I noticed this a few years ago

The study is claiming that these things consume about 50 watts when they are on. I decided to build my own media center PC which consumes about 90 watts when on, but is sleeping at less than 1 watt most of the time.

•••
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

power strip

when you leave & not in use shut it off! connect to a power strip!
those who can shell out the extra $20 a month for a dvr service actually deserve to get hosed another $200 a year on electricity costs!

•••••••
br0adbanddoc
join:2001-12-31
Wilkes Barre, PA

br0adbanddoc

Member

Here's what I see according to my UPS.

I have a 1500VA APC UPS with display on my home entertainment and this is what I've figured out with regards to energy consumption:

Motorola DCX3400-M - Uses 30W on or in standby
Samsung 55" TV - Uses 65W at high energy reduction mode and up to 150W on brightest mode
Xbox 360 - 150W while on, unreadable in standby
Onkyo Home theater - 5W in standby and 95W on
Nintendo Wii - 6W in standby and 50W on

Has anyone else seen results like this? I think that consoles like Xbox are probably bigger energy hogs when compared 1:1 as they are just a PC when it comes down to it.

••••••

SomeJoe7777
join:2010-03-30
Houston, TX

SomeJoe7777

Member

AT&T U-Verse Power Use

AT&T's U-Verse boxes are relative misers by comparison. The DVR box draws 17 W (on or off), the non-DVR boxes draw 10 W (on or off). The residential gateway draws 9 W.

At 12 cents per KWh, 1 DVR + 2 STBs + 1 RG = less than $4 a month.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Will take regulation

It's going to need regulation. Motorola has no incentive to make these things more efficient. I think that all DVRs and boxes should be required to use less than 1 watt when they are not viewing or recording TV. There's no need for the whole box to be powered up when it's not doing anything.

Our ancient box is even worse, as when we turn it "off" it misses recordings, so there it is, sitting 24/7 in full power on mode. Not that that part really matters, since it really doesn't turn off at all, it just blanks out the video outputs.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Will take regulation

said by BiggA:

Not that that part really matters, since it really doesn't turn off at all, it just blanks out the video outputs.

And I bet its not just grounding the analog signal (NTSC=low/no voltage is black), its rendering 30 digital frames of black per second.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Will take regulation

Who knows. Probably wouldn't make much difference when the hard drive, fan, and presumably CPU are running full blast.

zpm
join:2009-03-23
Columbus, GA

zpm

Member

Mediacom boxes

their bulky oversized piece of craps use twice the energy of knology boxes....

nologin
@verizon.net

nologin

Anon

Verizon going "green" didn't make consumers happy

When Verizon rolled out the newer HD STB, Motorola 7100 p2, it did so without a clock on the front display. Their reasoning was supposedly to "go green" and make the boxes more energy efficient by eliminating the clock. This however did not go over well with their customers as that is probably the #1 complaint on their forums about this box is that it has no clock on the front like the older models do.

Right now it really seems as if there isn't an economically feasible way to make the boxes more energy efficient without crippling some features of the stb or causing the customer some kind of annoying inconvenience. I guess they will have to wait for technology to simply get to that point.

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

aaronwt

Premium Member

Re: Verizon going "green" didn't make consumers happy

said by nologin :

When Verizon rolled out the newer HD STB, Motorola 7100 p2, it did so without a clock on the front display. Their reasoning was supposedly to "go green" and make the boxes more energy efficient by eliminating the clock. This however did not go over well with their customers as that is probably the #1 complaint on their forums about this box is that it has no clock on the front like the older models do.

Right now it really seems as if there isn't an economically feasible way to make the boxes more energy efficient without crippling some features of the stb or causing the customer some kind of annoying inconvenience. I guess they will have to wait for technology to simply get to that point.

having a clock on the front would be one reason for me NOT to get a box. I already have too many clocks on dozens of devices. Plus every TV has one. One touch of the display button and the time pops up.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

PVR disk cycling

Rogers PVRs (Cisco/SA) boxes started cycling their HDD up and down whether off or on, day and night (put a PVR in your bedroom and you know the problem)

So, after about a year of complaints from Rogers customers, Rogers and Cisco came up with the answer ... the disks now run ALL the time!

Oh it's green green, it's green they say ... but not here!
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

Don't forget Air Conditioning Cost.

Here in Central Florida I use Air Conditioning about 8 months of the year. The two HD DVR's I rent from Comcast use 50 Watts each per hour or 36,000 watt hours per 30 day month each. That means the equipment uses 72,000 watt hours per month. Since each watt used produces 3.414 BTU of heat. My Air Conditioner has to remove 245,808 BTU's per month, 8 months of the year. The cost to remove the heat the cable boxes dissipates should also be included in the cost calculation. Those in Maine get space heating included with each cable box.
pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA

pabster

Member

Re: Don't forget Air Conditioning Cost.

That's a great point. A lot of these boxes are space heaters. Mine certainly are, I think I could cook an egg on top of them especially when full-on recording a couple shows. Then again I've got an old P4 tower running as a media center of sorts which probably uses 2X whatever energy (and 2X at least heat) of the DVRs...

My main consideration here is that as we, consumers, strive to reduce our energy footprint...the price of the electricity we DO use keeps going up. Cut your usage in half, pay the same. And that's precisely what the utilities want and love.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Re: Don't forget Air Conditioning Cost.

said by pabster:

Cut your usage in half, pay the same. And that's precisely what the utilities want and love.

Very true... but what they love more is... don't cut your usage at all... and pay double.

So saving energy still is the smart thing to do.
kruser
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Eastern MO

1 edit

kruser

Premium Member

Dishnet VIP 722 DVR

I just measured a Dishnet VIP722 DVR with a Fluke 33 clamp meter and a Kill A Watt.

The Fluke shows the 722 draws 0.57 amps while powered on and a whopping 0.03 amps less (0.54 amps) when powered off! Not much sense in powering that box off each night with those figures. Maybe the hard drive spins down after a few minutes of the box being off but it did not in the 15 that I waited. I don't think the drive does spin down though as the box is always very warm to touch even after being off for an entire day.

The Kill A Watt reports a lower reading of 0.52 on and 0.49 off.

This brings me to a question about the Kill A Watt.
One amp at 120 volts should be 120 watts. Or a 1/2 amp load at 120 volts should be 60 watts correct? Why does the Kill A Watt only show 36 Watts for a half amp current draw?? I would think it should show 60 watts. If I switch the kill a watt to VA mode, it then shows 60 VA. Am I reading something wrong or do I not understand Ohms Law correctly? Or perhaps the POS Kill A Watt simply lies in the Watt mode.

I did not measure an older VIP622 receiver as it also stays just as warm as operating temps even when off. Now I also have an older Dishnet DVR510 that does shut the hard drive down when you hit the front panel power button. The outer case on that one actually gets cool to touch after it has been off for a while. This is the way all STB's box's should work. The DVR box's should only wake the hard drive for record activity or maybe guide updates and as far as I'm concerned, there is no reason the guide data needs to even reside on the hard drive in the first place.
Now I know why so many people unplug these things each night.
I'd do it if they did not take so long to update everything when you power them back up.
So I agree with the article that many STB's are energy hogs.

•••

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

You know these things hog power just based on heat

Why should an Cable box... "Off" or "On" be hot to the touch? Because it's wasting power. In spades. Technology exists to make electronics that use almost zero "standby" power, and some manufacturers are starting to go that route.

However, this is purely voluntary on their part, and with cable companies, they have no incentive to make more efficient devices. So exposure like this helps. The more publicity the higher awareness. New designs will save power. Until then, however, I can only recommend that you hard power off devices when you aren't using them.

Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
united state

Snakeoil

Premium Member

Hmm so that is why my wife has been screaming.

She has yelled about the electric bill a few times.
So between a on 24/7 PS3, a few LCd screens, a DVR/sat receiver, and 3 computers that are on 24/7...
ya, I guess the bill would be high.
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