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Comments on news posted 2012-02-02 10:46:50: With ISPs so relentlessly eager to move from flat rate to usage-based billing, you would think that they would have made sure they had the technical skills to do so first. Again and again however we've noted how U.S. ..

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Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

why Metered BB will fail

at least under current business models is that its metering is not regulated as of yet. Other utilities(and BB providers do like to call internet a utility) have their meters highly regulated. And really anything sold per unit is regulated by the state. a gas pump cant sell me two gallons and pump only one. the scale at the supermarket cant charge for 2lbs of fruit when I only had one pound. the merchants get fined if their gauges are inaccurate like that.

However I bet UBB will never have to face the weights and measures department due to lobby power.

thisIsJunk
@codamusic.com

thisIsJunk

Anon

unsolicited traffic?

Does unsolicited inbound traffic get metered and count against caps? What if someone targeted you with something like a DDOS would they be able to use up your allotted bandwidth? What about protocol overhead?

Most people dislike the mail service analogy, but seems this is like the post office charging recipients a fee instead of the sender and then we get a huge bill for all the junk mail and ads that I never wanted anyway.

fatness
subtle

join:2000-11-17
fishing

4 recommendations

fatness

usage meters aren't intended to work

Usage meters are not intended to be accurate measures of actual, you know, internet usage. They're a PR construct to allow increased billing. Like "extra whiteners" in laundry detergent.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

djrobx to Kearnstd

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to Kearnstd

Re: why Metered BB will fail

Big oil has lobby power too, but there are checks in place so they (hopefully) aren't short changing people at the pump. If enough people complain about inaccurate billing, I can't see the government looking the other way for too long.

I've been saying all along, the best way to fight against metered billing is to call for new regulations and government oversight. It's a perfectly reasonable request, and it's something these companies will really hate.

OneEye
join:2006-04-15
Peachtree City, GA

OneEye

Member

Need Information

Why is it that Cisco/Linksys will not add download usage meters to their consumer wireless/4 port routers?

Is their tie so strong with AT&T providing backbone routers with back doors to security agencies that consumers will never have built-in usage meters?

HaloFans
join:2006-12-18

HaloFans

Member

There are unofficial methods by using third party firmware, particular the one called Tomato (aka TomatoUSB).
25139889 (banned)
join:2011-10-25
Toledo, OH

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Re: why Metered BB will fail

Broadband providers do NOT call themselves utilties. They know if they do they can get regulated and thus adding extra taxes and fees to the bottom line and being required to do more. It's stupid for anyone to ask for regulation if you own the company.

The fact is nobody in the United States can just regulate the HSI providers without a problem. The FCC has no power over the Internet and they know it. Congress would have to give them that power to do just that. But then you have to decide what you're going to call it. Cable Internet is known as an Information Service. and DSL was/is a telecommunications service. So how are you going to regulate the two of them? It becomes a problem.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Weights and Measures

A few years ago, I had issues with an electric meter (the dial readings and AMR chip were off by a few thousand kWh). I called the utility and got the runaround. Only after I called the state DPU they replaced the faulty meter. The old meter was analog with a remote reading chip. The new meter is digital and the meter and AMR chip are integrated.

In Massachusetts, any meter used for billing is inspected by the weights and measures inspector for the city or town where the device is located. Oil trucks, gas pumps, and even taxi meters are all inspected.

OneEye
join:2006-04-15
Peachtree City, GA

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Re: Need Information

I know about Tomato but, like a lot of users, I've had to upgrade my wireless routers every two years or less to have access to new features. Having other than official software on the router voids the warranty.

Why can't Cisco/Linksys give us download counters with their wireless routers?
OneEye

OneEye

Member

Why doesn't DSLReports ask Cisco/Linksys directly and publish their response on this forum.

Maybe, Cisco/Linksys will admit that counters can't work and then we, the public, will have ammunition to use against AT&T when they start billing users for exceeding CAPS.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

djrobx to 25139889

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to 25139889

Re: why Metered BB will fail

said by 25139889:

The fact is nobody in the United States can just regulate the HSI providers without a problem.

Exactly.

Metered billing may very well create "a problem". There's a lot of potential for ISPs to charge people for goods not delivered, without any sort of check or balance to ensure accuracy.

CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium Member
join:2004-11-12

CableTool

Premium Member

What does it matter?

quote:
and in one instance a nuclear engineer struggles with overage billing confusion -- making you wonder how normal users fare.
How is a Nuclear Engineer any different then any other regular user? Do they use the internet differently then I do?
neufuse
join:2006-12-06
James Creek, PA

neufuse

Member

Comcast

my comcast one still doesn't work right, it will show up for oh 3 months then mysteriously vanish.... have to beg to get them to fix it takes forever to get it fixed, then when it is it works for a couple months again and repeat......
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

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Re: why Metered BB will fail

I think those companies don't mind the state calibrating their meters for free. They don't intentionally overcharge because it would eventually get them in trouble anyway, but unnoticed undercharging could really hurt them because their product actually costs them $/unit.
ilianame
join:2002-06-05
Burnaby, BC

ilianame to CableTool

Member

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Re: What does it matter?

No the article meant that Nuclear Engineers are smarter that the "regular user". Are you a Nuclear Engineer? You're dumb if you're not, cause obviously every smart person is a Nuclear Engineer...

OneEye
join:2006-04-15
Peachtree City, GA

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Re: why Metered BB will fail

It's one thing to read all the DSLReport members pis%%%g and moaning about ISP providers (AT&T especially) implementing CAPS, but we're all standing on the bow of a sailboat pis%%%g into the wind (and getting wet in the process).

This forum is a relief valve here in our own little corner of the internet where all the malcontents can gather while the rest of the world goes its own way not caring that they are being shafted by CAPS right along with all internet users.

Someone with teeth has got to drag all the none ISP content providers (Netflix, Amazon, etc) into speaking with one voice against the ISPs. Forget Hulu Plus because of their Network (Comcast) ownership.

In my opinion, that one voice should be led by the webmasters at DSLReports. Get these businesses together and start hammering on the government and press to take up this issue.

Ask the consumer router industry why they won't provide Download Usage Counters in their wireless/4 port routers (specially Cisco/Linksys) so consumers can question the Empires metering?

Is AT&T and Cogeco's influence so great that consumers will always be mashed beneath their feet like dogs&%t?

CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium Member
join:2004-11-12

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Re: What does it matter?

Maybe it took a Nuclear Engineer to understand the correlation.
NetKrazy
join:2007-11-29
Littleton, CO

1 recommendation

NetKrazy

Member

It was Karls attempt as always to insight anger and the big evil corporations. Ofcourse the nuclear engineer never bothered to change from his default password? (Anyone else catch that and feel a little worried).

And the second part of his complaint is that the service provide couldn't tell him "where all the traffic was to / from" Yet, I have no problem believing if they "did tell them" Karl would have posted how that provider is tracking all the customers traffic! PRIVACY VIOLATION!!!!!

Also while yes counters are off they are different... //overhead// is still viable to be included. Including that in the sum total of traffic is not "wrong" or "broken" it is however something that will make people like us stomp our feet. But a meter that includes overhead I would not say is "broken"
chgo_man99
join:2010-01-01
Sunnyvale, CA

chgo_man99

Member

I have no problem with meter usage for my at&t wireless

service that is capped at 2GB a month. It closely matches to what my iphone counts in transfer.

t3ln3t
@clearwire-wmx.net

t3ln3t

Anon

it's not that hard ...

seems to me, hosting providers and even some bandwidth providers, have been doing 95th percentile billing, for YEARS! It's not that hard to do, in reality. Perhaps a challenge, given the scale (60 million households?)

Knowing how at&t does things, they've probably been trying to pay someone like computer associates or BMC (someone like that) to deliver a boxed and supported solution.

Hey at&t ... I could implement a solution in a couple of days, and within the month it could be tested and ready for FOA trials. I won't of course, as at&t can EAT MY SHORTS!

Death to at&t!
Down with Lerch & Darth Felo!

NO UBB
@bell.ca

NO UBB

Anon

Read Below:

WE DON'T EVEN NEED METERED BILLING!

Chuck sTruck
@teksavvy.com

Chuck sTruck

Anon

Agreed

The main Canadian incumbents all lie (including Telus) about everybody's internet usage. The third party isp's all seem to have accurate counters. Another issue the Prime Minister should do something about. The subscribers should be rebated billions of dollars for being charged false overuse fees.
ilianame
join:2002-06-05
Burnaby, BC

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Re: What does it matter?

Yeah, I didn't want to sound condescending or disrespect Karl - I always read his news and it's definitely a big attraction on DSLR.
However, I feel a little uneasy from time to time, because the way I see his writing - it is very sensationalist and the sarcastic bias (I did put sarcastic) takes away from the credibility.
As in Karl puts the facts in such a light, where immediate action or even a revolt is almost implied, yet no tangible action is produced by the readers. It is a lot like Keiser Report about the banking industry, Max Keiser keeps screaming Financial Terrorists, Thiefs, points to actual facts, but nothing comes of it - effectively invalidating the entire presentation.
NetKrazy
join:2007-11-29
Littleton, CO

NetKrazy

Member

Agreed, but I will also in the same breath say that while I might criticize Karl and others.. I will also tip my hat to him. He's brought to light several things over the years that *needed* to be. And I do think his nature and the way he does do some of his writing does infact get results... I guess if you dig deep enough you can always find the bad and or good side to the same thing. I would like to see a bit more of positive articles though that don't three lines in reference something historic the company on topic did wrong :P
Warez_Zealot
join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

1 edit

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Re: why Metered BB will fail

said by Wilsdom:

I think those companies don't mind the state calibrating their meters for free. They don't intentionally overcharge because it would eventually get them in trouble anyway, but unnoticed undercharging could really hurt them because their product actually costs them $/unit.

Sorry to say.. But that's a great way to put it if you don't know what you're talking about..

Rogers is actually are coming out with a propaganda "report" that contradicts the OECD report.. haha

»business.financialpost.c ··· Comments
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

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said by 25139889:

Broadband providers do NOT call themselves utilties

Yet when they justify why they should be able to go to a metered billing they ALWAYS bring up utilitites as an example.

dslfan90
@sbcglobal.net

dslfan90 to NetKrazy

Anon

to NetKrazy

Re: What does it matter?

I agree. His articles always have a very anti big corporation slant. It does reduce the credibility. Focusing on some positive things once in a while would be nice, but I guess that would not draw the readers.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

What are subscribers being charged for.

The ISP's are implementing metered billing but have not disclosed how usage is calculated.
Here are some theories as to what subscribers are actually being charged for to ponder over:
1) Actual payload without overhead.
2) Payload plus PPPoE or PPPoA encapsulation overhead.
3) Payload plus PPPoE or PPPoA encapsulation plus ATM encapsulation overhead.
4) Payload plus PPPoE or PPPoA encapsulation plus ATM encapsulation overhead plus modem server communication traffic.

I can just go on and on with an infinite number of combinations. Any ISP metering service should by law be required to disclose what subscribers are being billed for.

The other issue is advertising. Should subscribers be charged for traffic created by advertises downloading their advertisements along with requested webpages or should some method be created to charge all traffic generated by advertisers to the advertiser.
old_wiz_60
join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

old_wiz_60

Member

If the ISPs

are making money on the overcharges, there's no reason for them to fix it. Given it's hard to prove incorrect charges, the ISPs are happy to overcharge.

Personally I think the ISPs don't have the technical skills to fix the issue anyway and they have little incentive to do so when the errors are making money for them.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678 to thisIsJunk

Member

to thisIsJunk

Re: unsolicited traffic?

I think they bill for overhead and maybe rounding as well.

But on the U-Verse side I think they are having a hardtime not counting the video data.
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