Comments on news posted 2012-02-15 10:28:15: The FCC has put a nail in the coffin for LightSquared, late yesterday stating they'd be revoking LightSquared's spectrum waiver. ..
That is my feeling... This a failure on all parties parts. GPS manufactures built a flawed product that relies on empty space outside their assigned spectrum for "proper" functionality. LS failed to meet the conditions of the waiver for the assigned spectrum. The FCC, again, just failed all over.
Do you realize how weak a GPS signal is at the receiver? There is always crosstalk between neighboring frequencies. When the neighboring frequency's signal is several orders of magnitude more powerful on account of its proximity (remember that effective power is inversely proportional to the square of the distance), it will drown out other signals, even if they're not on the exact same band. GPS cannot have terrestrial signals around it, and that's not the fault of GPS.
It doesn't rely on empty spectrum, it relied on the neighboring spectrum to be used for its original purpose, which was for transmissions from space to earth, not from base stations close by and more powerful.
That is inherently flawed. Would not a device capable of responding to a satellite in that band also cause that interference?
The idea that your device must have other devices working in a way not thought of 20 years ago when the bands were set aside is flawed. What makes it even more flawed is that the makers were told almost a decade ago to fix this mistake, and failed to do so.
That is inherently flawed. Would not a device capable of responding to a satellite in that band also cause that interference?
The idea that your device must have other devices working in a way not thought of 20 years ago when the bands were set aside is flawed. What makes it even more flawed is that the makers were told almost a decade ago to fix this mistake, and failed to do so.
A device on earth would not respond in that band, One band for Space to earth another from earth to space, even if someone did it would most likely be a directional antenna or dish.
Edit: Added frequency band plan, as you can see 1525 to 1559 LightSquared's frequencies Sit in the Satellite Space to Earth Band.
Smokey, neither you nor "John McClane" apparently understand How Radio Works. (Hint: Regurgitating LightSquared's wildly inaccurate assertions as to How Radio Works does not constitute "Understanding How Radio Works.") Nor, apparently, do either of you understand how frequency allocation/planning works, either. (Hint: Whining about the alleged "unfairness" of frequency allocation/planning, just because it doesn't work to ones advantage, does not constitute "understanding.")
I, on the other hand, having been in radio for over 40 years, including terrestrial and satellite microwave communications, do understand How Radio Works. Having held both FCC Advance Class Amateur and FCC Commercial licenses, I also understand how frequency allocation/planning work.
LightSquared's plans were a massive Fail from the get-go. I knew it. Anybody that knew the least bit of How Radio Works knew it. I'm certain FCC's engineers knew it, and FCC granted the conditional waiver only under political pressure from above. (Research "Barack Obama" and "LightSquared" to get an idea where that might've come from.)
Smokey, neither you nor "John McClane" apparently understand How Radio Works.
That is very obvious. I get the feeling the money behind lightsquared didn't have a clue, either. I'd hate to be an engineer at that company! Beating your head against the walls all day - knowing it's never going to work....
it is susceptible to transmissions outside the frequencies used for GPS. The very reasons that lightsquared is getting the axe.
Lightquared is getting the axe because they wanted to use the frequencies for purposes other than they were intended. If Lightsquared had used the frequencies like they were supposed to there would be any interference.
I, on the other hand, having been in radio for over 40 years, including terrestrial and satellite microwave communications, do understand How Radio Works. Having held both FCC Advance Class Amateur and FCC Commercial licenses, I also understand how frequency allocation/planning work.
LightSquared's plans were a massive Fail from the get-go. I knew it. Anybody that knew the least bit of How Radio Works knew it. I'm certain FCC's engineers knew it, and FCC granted the conditional waiver only under political pressure from above. (Research "Barack Obama" and "LightSquared" to get an idea where that might've come from.)
Bingo! I too saw this as NEVER flying, the radio interference from the get go was demonstrated time and time again. Engineers and the FCC mentioned it multiple times. Also thanks for pointing us to the following article about Obamas ties to this fiasco:
I am wondering is there anyone in Washington that is out for the best interest of the citizens and country? Or is the BIG Government and Super Pac Donation(s) where the country is Bankrupt dept rating dropped in the Land of Lincoln (Illinois) where Obama left the state in shambles as a Senator with his unconstitutional Obamacare plan... I wonder.
And it's not just the Democrats, it's this idiot too Lamar Smith (r) Texas. The ranking member of the subcommittee on Science and Technology with his brilliant idears for the internet(s).
Bingo! I too saw this as NEVER flying, the radio interference from the get go was demonstrated time and time again. Engineers and the FCC mentioned it multiple times. Also thanks for pointing us to the following article about Obamas ties to this fiasco:
Too bad it's RWers that want to kill the EPA, FDA, FCC etc etc and not allow them to do their job. It doesn't take a genius to work out why these things are not an issue in other developed countries, because their equivalent agencies have the authority to do their job.
This is GOP 101 at it's best anyway, allowing business to do whatever it pleases, in the name of the mighty profit for the few.
Makes a lot of sense now. Seems to me this is going to be the next brilliant Solyndra Goof by our highly capable US President (Oh boy)!
Of course, why invest in innovative companies like everyone else around the world does, when we can borrow and waste $4 trillion on two wars.
I am wondering is there anyone in Washington that is out for the best interest of the citizens and country? Or is the BIG Government and Super Pac Donation(s) where the country is Bankrupt dept rating dropped in the Land of Lincoln (Illinois) where Obama left the state in shambles as a Senator with his unconstitutional Obamacare plan... I wonder.
This is the funniest thing I have read so far. RWers claiming to be looking out for the citizens and the country. What world do you live in? RWers refuse to invest 2 cents into this country, because it may mean raising money (taxes) to do so. They'd rather we have infrastructure of a 3rd world country than invest in out nation.
Another moot point is the superpac considering it was RWer politicians that allow corporations and conglomerates to form superpacs. It's RWer SCOTUS judges that allowed a corporation to share the same rights as an American.
A senator doesn't decide state fiscal policy and his health plan was not in place during that period either.
I am surprised you found time to write something when you could be listening to Alex Jones or Ventura.
I, on the other hand, having been in radio for over 40 years, including terrestrial and satellite microwave communications, do understand How Radio Works. Having held both FCC Advance Class Amateur and FCC Commercial licenses, I also understand how frequency allocation/planning work.
LightSquared's plans were a massive Fail from the get-go. I knew it. Anybody that knew the least bit of How Radio Works knew it. I'm certain FCC's engineers knew it, and FCC granted the conditional waiver only under political pressure from above. (Research "Barack Obama" and "LightSquared" to get an idea where that might've come from.)
Bingo! I too saw this as NEVER flying, the radio interference from the get go was demonstrated time and time again. Engineers and the FCC mentioned it multiple times. Also thanks for pointing us to the following article about Obamas ties to this fiasco:
I am wondering is there anyone in Washington that is out for the best interest of the citizens and country? Or is the BIG Government and Super Pac Donation(s) where the country is Bankrupt dept rating dropped in the Land of Lincoln (Illinois) where Obama left the state in shambles as a Senator with his unconstitutional Obamacare plan... I wonder.
And it's not just the Democrats, it's this idiot too Lamar Smith (r) Texas. The ranking member of the subcommittee on Science and Technology with his brilliant idears for the internet(s).
Solyndra went bankrupt because Congress cancelled a promised loan, and China has subsidized its solar companies with $40 billion in fresh capital last year alone. Chinese solar companies have been dumping their products onto the market to drive out competition.
Not every investment is going to work. In venture capital 1 out of 100 investments turns out to be successful. The government didn't even "lose" $500 million. They still make their money back on whatever capital Solyndra owns after it is all sold.
Whining about less than $500 million, while the "defense department" spends $700 billion/year, is the definition of hypocrsity.
Solyndra went bankrupt because Congress cancelled a promised loan, and China has subsidized its solar companies with $40 billion in fresh capital last year alone. Chinese solar companies have been dumping their products onto the market to drive out competition.
Not every investment is going to work. In venture capital 1 out of 100 investments turns out to be successful. The government didn't even "lose" $500 million. They still make their money back on whatever capital Solyndra owns after it is all sold.
Careful, you might inject facts into the discussion, which makes it harder to just repeat partisan propaganda.
That is my feeling... This a failure on all parties parts. GPS manufactures built a flawed product that relies on empty space outside their assigned spectrum for "proper" functionality. LS failed to meet the conditions of the waiver for the assigned spectrum. The FCC, again, just failed all over.
No they did not. They provided filters based on FCC specs and to accomodate red and blue shifted gps signals. The FCC allows for out of band emissions. This is why GPS has a block of frequencies 1559 to 1610 MHz but only broadcast on 1575.42 MHz and surround frequencies are satellite only. The new L1C signal at 1574.42 will even shift more into the lower spectrums that goes live 2014.
You just cant add such a powerful signal right next to weak satellite signal.
That is my feeling... This a failure on all parties parts. GPS manufactures built a flawed product that relies on empty space outside their assigned spectrum for "proper" functionality.
That spectrum actually is assigned to GPS. That is why LightSquared needed a conditional waiver to operate inside it. The actual satellites transmit on a narrow band of frequencies inside their assigned spectrum, which is why it can be shared with other satellite users.
They found a way to improve accuracy by using further away satellites that had doppler shifted outside the frequencies set for GPS, so yes, they are also guilty of using unapproved spectrum.
However they are firmly entrenched now and in widespread use, so the onus was always on LightSquared to show their service didn't cause problems for GPS. Apparently, they failed, but I do think that some of LightSquared claims may have some validity to them, but they had an uphill battle from the start. Was a huge gamble, which has failed..... but we really need people who think outside the box.
What??? Everything GPS uses is approved. It is owned by american taxpayers and approved by american voters representatives.
GPS manufactures just make products so us tax payers can use the network we paid for.
There are great reasons why the FCC only allows other weaker satellites to broadcast around the GPS single. Lightsquaredd was trying to use spectrum allocated aside for satellite phones and internet for way more powerful ground use.
The FCC was nice enough to let lightsquaredd try with their phantom technology. that defied logic. Lightsquared has no real technology to do what they claimed so they lost their waiver. The FCC never had to let them have a chance in the first place.
it is susceptible to transmissions outside the frequencies used for GPS. The very reasons that lightsquared is getting the axe.
Lightquared is getting the axe because they wanted to use the frequencies for purposes other than they were intended. If Lightsquared had used the frequencies like they were supposed to there would be any interference.
it is susceptible to transmissions outside the frequencies used for GPS. The very reasons that lightsquared is getting the axe.
Lightquared is getting the axe because they wanted to use the frequencies for purposes other than they were intended. If Lightsquared had used the frequencies like they were supposed to there would be any interference.
I get tired of reading the same arguments over and over by the Lightsquared defenders about how it is GPS vendors fault. When even a cursory examination of the issue shows Lightsquared was planning on using spectrum intended only for satellite use because of the interference issues. The only people worse than Lightsquared's lobbyists were the political bozos at the FCC that let this proceed at all in the 1st place.
it is susceptible to transmissions outside the frequencies used for GPS. The very reasons that lightsquared is getting the axe.
Lightquared is getting the axe because they wanted to use the frequencies for purposes other than they were intended. If Lightsquared had used the frequencies like they were supposed to there would be any interference.
I get tired of reading the same arguments over and over by the Lightsquared defenders about how it is GPS vendors fault. When even a cursory examination of the issue shows Lightsquared was planning on using spectrum intended only for satellite use because of the interference issues. The only people worse than Lightsquared's lobbyists were the political bozos at the FCC that let this proceed at all in the 1st place.
The FCC granted a conditional waiver, something they do all the time. LS failed to meet the conditions, so the waiver wasn't granted.
Using your thinking, so is everything that is wireless. This includes, radio, TV, mobile phone, etc. Look at the facts. LightSquared bought SATELLITE spectrum and then later wanted to use it for terrestrial communication. If the spectrum was used as it was sold for, there would be no issues. The issue is that at high transmission power levels, you do get bleed over and the higher the power, the more the neighboring devices will have to deal with it. In this case, you have the GPS signal as a very weak signal and you have a massively more powerful neighbor drowning those signals out. This is why that spectrum that LightSquared bought was for SATELLITE use. LightSquared bought the wrong spectrum and nothing more.
Ya know, there ARE certain design limitations to transmitting a beacon from space, right?
Size of the unit deployed, technology available at the time of launch (the oldest GPS satellite still in service has been up there for 22 years, anyone here commuting in a 22 year old car, or using a 22 year old computer?) Power available at the transmission source, etc.
The technological parameters drawn up when the system was deployed were designed to take the spectrum conditions in place at the time of deployment into consideration. Since we don't have unlimited money to lob fresh GPS sats into the stratosphere on a weekly basis, and no one has found a way to run an extension court into space, I would say it's a pretty well designed system.
Lightsquared is getting the axe because they were going to use spectrum that wasn't designed for the intended purpose in the first place. They bought the spectrum on the cheap, thinking they could bribe the Obama administration into steering a waiver their way, and they lost.
So, the DoD has designed and deployed a constellation of 26 satellites that can reliably tell me my precise position anywhere on earth, and you see it as flawed.
Lightsquared is getting the axe because they were going to use spectrum that wasn't designed for the intended purpose in the first place. They bought the spectrum on the cheap, thinking they could bribe the Obama administration into steering a waiver their way, and they lost.
Evidently Falcone still thinks he has juice with the Obama admin, because he is still acting all tough and confident despite the FCC decision: »old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/ ··· _falcone
"It is clearly not on our table," Falcone said in an email to Reuters on Wednesday when asked if LightSquared, the biggest investment in his Harbinger Capital Partners fund, was considering a bankruptcy filing. He said there is a plan for dealing with the Federal Communications Commission's plan to revoke its permission for LightSquared to build out a land-based network, but he declined to offer any details.
Falcone lying like that is not going to help him. The FCC did not revoke permission for lightsquared as it never gave them permission in the first place.
So is just about any other broadcast technology. Why do you think that you can't put radio or TV stations on adjacent channels and expect them to coexist?
The only case where you'll see this work is on cable systems, and the only reason it works is because the cable company has to carefully balance the power levels of each carrier so one doesn't overpower the one adjacent to it. In the case of GPS and LightSquared, you have a very strong signal (LightSquared's terrestrial transmitter) broadcasting immediately adjacent to a very weak signal (GPS). It simply won't work. If you want to see this in action, tune to a local radio station, then tune one channel up or down the dial and see how well you pick up a station in a distant city. You simply won't get an interference-free signal. If you have a gain control on your radio, you might be able to turn it down enough so that the radio won't get adjacent channel interference from the local station, but then you likely won't be able to receive the weaker signal.
If you think this problem is easily solved and that it's simply the fault of the GPS industry for not trying, you're either sadly mistaken, or you've stumbled upon a technique that could make you rich beyond your wildest dreams, since every broadcaster and receiver manufacturer will bring you stacks of gold bars for such a technology.
Only if you'd been willing to buy one. And I'll bet that, had one of LightSquared's proposed solutions been adopted, Falcone and his bunch would have been more than ready to license it to the GPS manufacturers...for a reasonable licensing fee, of course.
Everyone is forgetting that it's the GPS devices that are bleeding over into Lightsqared's spectrum, not the other way. Lightsquared is getting the short end of the stick for trying to use their spectrum. The GPS industry is paying tons of money to not have to fix a problem that is theirs.
If you bought property, and found out your neighbor had built on it, and were told you couldn't use your property because it would interfere with your neighbor, you would understand Lightsquared's point.
Lightsquared bought a piece of property in a quite residential district. Even though property is available in much more expensive commercial districts, Lighsquared thinks they have the local politicians in their back pocket, so they open a noisy night club in the middle of the sleepy part of town thinking their variance is in the "bag".
The club opens on a "trial" basis and things are ugly. Pounding music until 3 AM, people puking in the street, beer cans everywhere. The residents realize the "Cluster Frank" this is, and eventually make a big enough stink that the local politicians have no choice but to shut the club down.
By the reasoning of the folks here who support Lightsquared's use of their spectrum outside it's original allocation, the families who live around the noisy night club should be forced to live with the noise, traffic, and irritation. Why not? They could just better insulate their homes and draw their shades. After all, the night club is making money. Even though there is a night club district on the other side of town with plenty of open ground where the club could operate without disturbing the local residents.
Problem is, the open ground in the night club district is pricey. VERY pricey.
So, Lightsquared has 2 choices. Sell their land, or build a house and take a nap.
Good riddance to competition in a narrow mobile data playing field?
Flaws can be fixed... maybe not in this case, not realistically anyway and I AM NOT stating one way or the other BUT talk about "throwing out the baby with the dirty bath water"
We just lost what would have been a MAJOR competitor to Verizon, T-Mobile, ATT and a LOT of other little companies that could have grown bigger and helped out a lot... not to mention Sprint becoming a 1st tier player.
Good riddance to lower cell phone bills... is that what you are saying Mr. "must be dumb" or "work for the telco?"
Good riddance to nationwide high speed data connections for everyone, with more choice on who to get it from? Is that what you meant?
Good riddance to the risk of the "Old Guard" of telco getting shook up?
Good riddance to even more competition for EVERY ISP in the country? Why pressure them to lower prices due to competition right? Is that what you meant?
Good riddance to a lot more stateside jobs and investment? Is that what you meant?
The FCC order for all practical purposes has killed Lightsquared. But it isn't an official death until Falcone and his hedge fund declares they have given up or his fund goes broke.
Next up is Sprint finally saying no longer interested in Lightsquared. Expect any day now.
Karl, why exactly does Sprint need a "new" plan? They already had a plan (read: Network Vision) before they came to an agreement with LightSquared. LightSquared was an addition, not the backbone, to those plans so I think their "new" plan is the same as their old plan-Network Vision.
I guess now Sprint will let them die peacefully be they kinda needed them for their LTE-Advanced deployment. Maybe if LightSquared falls apart Sprint can buy the spectrum on the cheap! The LightSquared staff was arrogant not planning for another outcome.
and what is Sprint going to buy the spectrum with? And what are they going to use it for? They can't use it for what they needed it. They're going to have to go back to the drawing board to come up with something.
Sprint could have been the telco that got the spectrum from Spectrum Co but after Sprint decided to SUE their partners; I wouldn't have offered them anything either, let alone would have even toyed with the idea of selling it to them.
If the FCC knew that anything running on the bands around the GPS frequencies were off limits do to interference problems then why did the FCC allow Light Squared to purchase them and start anything in the first place? The FCC should be paying a penalty to Light Squared for leading them on.
Even if there were such a thing as supernatural forces, would be odd priorities for the deity if the LS opponents conjured one up and it actually stepped in and influenced the outcome.
It's an expression. Sheesh. God just wanted us to be able to eat, and that requires functioning tractors on farms that aren't broken because their GPS units don't work.
Those were very small time regional ISPs or cell phone companies that signed "intent" agreements to resell service for % of the money. They were not partners, just resellers.
Sprint's deal was Lightsquared can pay Sprint to use Sprints network which they can still do.
The whole rationale could have been to separate suckers from their money. Did the backers of Light Squared raise a significant amount of money from such gullible suckers--which they transmitted to themselves via various fees or other methods...?
"NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--Philip Falcone's LightSquared may seek to exchange its wireless airwave licenses for similar ones operated by the U.S. Department of Defense, in a last-ditch effort to revive its fourth-generation mobile broadband service, according to people familiar with the company's plans.
The possible strategy comes a day after officials from the Federal Communications Commission said they planned to revoke a waiver allowing the network to operate because of interference concerns." »online.wsj.com/article/B ··· 252.html
When this issue first started getting attention, I only had one perspective -- pro-LightSquared. I really thought they were getting the shaft. I wanted to believe in them. We need more competition.
After a few terse posts saying that I didn't know the whole story, I decided to educate myself. That's when I discovered the adjacent frequency was originally allocated for low power, non-terrestrial use. Starting to see a different perspective, I read about red shift (duh! Didn't think about that but it happens!). I kept digging and read about superheterodyne radio concepts (somebody really smart came up with that!). Then it all made sense why my original perspective was wrong.
If you really believe LightSquared got shafted, please investigate further. I think you will change your opinion as I did.
They got shafted because they are in their spectrum, and the GPS industry is in Lightsquared's spectrum, which is why there is interference. Lightsquared is getting shafted for interfering with their own spectrum.
Did you investigate further? Is there any understanding of why the GPS devices listen on those frequencies? Is there any understanding of why how it's used today doesn't interfere with GPS even though GPS listens to those frequencies?
I agree that Lightsquared caused a problem for high precision GPS and apparently there was no easy fixes, so, good.... but bad as well, because the idea of new innovative broadband competition to provide more options for consumers and businesses in the face of the stranglehold the large incumbents have on the USA's telecommunications is much needed... so, bad.
I'm all for evolving our use of spectrum to this end, but what I'm not for is for new spectrum or uses to end up just going into the hands of the few who already sit on most of it. All around us is the fallout of such bad policy; "Limited" unlimited, Caps, overages, throttling, ETF, high monthly charges, etc etc all signs of the lack of enough options for people.
It doesn't take a genius to see the USA market could use a lot more competition and innovation.
It's another cause of some very rich person that does not think they have to follow the rules. It's like a very successful restaurant next door to you deciding to expand with an outdoor patio that includes a band. All the home owners next to the restaurant disapprove of the plans but are brushed off. The very successful restaurant owner has the money and connections to push for the approval. If they get the approval it is the home owners that have to adjust to the noise with noise abatement improvements while the restaurant makes more money at the homeowners expense.
Lightsquared's signal is not bleeding into others spectrum. The GPS industry is in Lightsquared's spectrum and is paying tons of money lobbying so they don't have to fix it. Lightsquared may not be using the spectrum as it was initially intended, but it is staying within it's own spectrum which would not interfere with GPS if they stayed in theirs. That is the argument.