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Comments on news posted 2012-02-27 08:45:18: AT&T has been waging a quiet war on those "unlimited" users they grandfathered in 2010 when the company ditched unlimited data for new users. ..


FFH5
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join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

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FFH5

Premium Member

He won; but will he ever collect?

Yes, he won his case. But he may still have to go to court again to collect. And that could mean paying Sherrif's deputies fees, court papers filing fees, etc. He will be real lucky if he gets a nickel.

See this for how difficult that can be. AT&T could cost him more money than he won. »www.small-claims-courts. ··· ims.html
»consumer-law.lawyers.com ··· nts.html

The little guy is at a real disadvantage in using the courts to beat those with deep pockets and lawyers on staff.

And AT&T can and did appeal the decision. It then moves from small claims to regular court with lawyers. They sent a sales guy to small claims court, but now it will be a different fight. »www.courts.ca.gov/1115.htm

And given the backup of cases in regular civil court, it could be years before the case is heard in an appeal of a small claims court decision.

Small claims court usually handles disputes between parties neither of which has the means to ever use regular civil court processes - with lawyers, expensive discovery processes, etc. I'd bet that in 99% of cases, no one ever appeals a decision to regular civil court. The hard part in small claims court is usually the winner has trouble collecting their judgement after a win. So small claims court does what it was intended to - give the hoi polloi their day in court. Someone sues their dry cleaner; disputes between landlord and renter; unmarried roommates fight over shared items when they split; neighbors sue over cost of cutting down a tree intruding on property line; etc. etc. Watch Judge Judy on TV even for just 1/2 hr to see what Small Claims Court usually is.

Small claims court was never designed to enable the weak & powerless to take on large corporate titans and beat the system. Life just don't work that way. After all, it is those corporations that lobbied state legislatures when these laws were written. Small Claims Court is a very poor substitute for the powerless to fight big corporations instead of using the now unusable class action lawsuit. In a class action lawsuit the corporation can lose hundreds of millions of dollars. Sure the lawyers get the biggest piece and the payouts to each individual in the class is very small, but it is costly to the corporation. Hundreds and even thousands of Small Claim victories are like flea bites to the corporation - the combined loss won't even make a line item in the annual report.

And how many of those who won in Small Claims Court against AT&T will spend the time and money to fight an AT&T appeal and start going thru an expensive and time consuming civil court process to win at most $10,000 and fees. Dozens??

Robert
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Robert

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

Way to root for the little guy, eh?

FFH5
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Tavistock NJ

FFH5

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by Robert:

Way to root for the little guy, eh?

Just presenting the facts. Those who think using Small Claims Court as a way to beat a large corporation are sadly deluded as to the reality of what they will face. AT&T will make examples of the 1st cases doing this to scare off others from even trying.

ptrowski
Got Helix?
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join:2005-03-14
Woodstock, CT

ptrowski

Premium Member

Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

With this win backed by the Validas finding it brings light to the draconian throttling practice AT&T employs. True he may never collect, but this is exactly what AT&T doesn't want in headlines.
25139889 (banned)
join:2011-10-25
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25139889 (banned)

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

and very few news outlets will cover this, Except blogs that want the hits.
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

etaadmin

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by 25139889:

and very few news outlets will cover this, Except blogs that want the hits.

Google it and the results will show up first from broadbandreports.com it is not the coverage but the priority of the news outlets.

AVD
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AVD

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by etaadmin:

said by 25139889:

and very few news outlets will cover this, Except blogs that want the hits.

Google it and the results will show up first from broadbandreports.com it is not the coverage but the priority of the news outlets.

ATT is a big advertiser in the MSM
etaadmin
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united state

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But there is a catch, if a customer doesn't pay he/she gets a bad rating at a credit reporting bureau. If AT&T doesn't pay it gets badmouthed in online forums like this one and eventually any educated potential customer will avoid at&t like the plague.

The long list of complaints and bad press that at&t has been getting will eventually make many customers defect to other wireless carriers.

Morac
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Morac

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

Considering that the large amount existing bad "press" AT&T gets here and other blogs hasn't hurt AT&T (they still increase subscribers), I doubt this story will make a difference either.
en103
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The only way the 'little guy' would win against AT&T in this kind of ordeal would be to mass flood the court system (ie. 17 million unlimited customers) where AT&T wouldn't have the staff to contend with it. Of course, the courts wouldn't have it either.

KrK
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said by FFH5:

Just presenting the facts. Those who think using Courts as a way to beat a large corporation are sadly deluded as to the reality of what they will face.

Edited it a little to make it current to modern standards.

Justice is bought, unless it's the illegal kind.
fiberguy2
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Don't count this one out bud. In most cases I agree with what you say, however, the little guy is in fact getting bigger chunks taken out of the big guy more and more.. maybe not in money, but due to facebook and other social media, the little guy is shaping the bigger guy's direction. (Big Bank & Debit Card Fee?)

This could wind up being a huge loss for AT&T if and when this makes the mainstream media circuit and AT&T has to answer direct to public opinion. This would be when those "Unlimited Sprint" commercials start to gain momentum.

Personally, I'm with the guy on this one against AT&T. They made it clear they were "grandfathering" the old unlimited customers "if they sign up, or keep their plans" prior to that well known date. However, their intent was to motivate people to stay with AT&T and not leave to competition over the iPhone. However, now they've changed their plan to include throttling. Personally, I think those that signed up for a 2 year plan that June have a better case than someone like me who has been there since 08, however, still, they made a move to invoke motivation among the consumer. This could be considered bait and switch if pushed I believe.

Either way, AT&T is not an honest company, as are many of the larger corporations these days. Be you right or wrong, no matter what, business has to start getting one thing.. people are pissed and fed up these days, rightfully so, and if they're not careful, none of them are immune to failure in this day and age.

Morac
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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by fiberguy2:

This could wind up being a huge loss for AT&T if and when this makes the mainstream media circuit and AT&T has to answer direct to public opinion. This would be when those "Unlimited Sprint" commercials start to gain momentum.

It already made the mainstream media circuit. There was an article about it in the business section of my local newspaper they day after this went public. I don't think it will make a lick of difference. If AT&T's past actions haven't changed public opinion enough to impact AT&T's business, then I doubt this will either.

I think the only thing AT&T fears about this is copy cat law suits. That's why they appealed. They couldn't care less about public opinion as seen by their past actions.
fiberguy2
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fiberguy2

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

I made comment on copycat lawsuits already as well, which I agree with.

But, public opinion odes have an impact - maybe not in their bottom line, but it has (more so recently) started putting pressure on the larger corps when they pull this crap.

The crap being pulled on the consumer either happens at the pleasure of buying the government OR under the radar of the government and most people have no idea what's going on. The power of social media and so on does call attention to questionable actions and that alone is enough to cause them grief.
moonpuppy (banned)
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said by FFH5:

And how many of those who won in Small Claims Court against AT&T will spend the time and money to fight an AT&T appeal and start going thru an expensive and time consuming civil court process to win at most $10,000 and fees. Dozens??

And, if this guy does have to take ATT to regular civil court to collect, he can tack on lawyer fees and interest and end up with a higher judgement. I'm sure Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Comptroller Amer Ahmad of Chicago didn't want to write that $399,950 check to the Second Amendment Foundation for the lose in the McDonald v. Chicago case. How about Heller's lawyers getting $1.1 million in fees from the District of Columbia?

FFH5
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FFH5

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by moonpuppy:

said by FFH5:

And how many of those who won in Small Claims Court against AT&T will spend the time and money to fight an AT&T appeal and start going thru an expensive and time consuming civil court process to win at most $10,000 and fees. Dozens??

And, if this guy does have to take ATT to regular civil court to collect, he can tack on lawyer fees and interest and end up with a higher judgement. I'm sure Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Comptroller Amer Ahmad of Chicago didn't want to write that $399,950 check to the Second Amendment Foundation for the lose in the McDonald v. Chicago case. How about Heller's lawyers getting $1.1 million in fees from the District of Columbia?

But how many will fight that fight? It is a numbers game. Very very few will ever go to the trouble. In the end AT&T wins with their hundreds of millions in additional revenues based on their policies and will ultimately pay out much less in court awards and costs. Their back room bean counters can probably calculate those numbers right now.

Kilroy
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Kilroy

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by FFH5:

In the end AT&T wins with their hundreds of millions in additional revenues based on their policies and will ultimately pay out much less in court awards and costs.

That really depends on what you mean by AT&T wins. They may never pay him the $850, but this is now national news and lawyers don't work for free. The cost to AT&T is already over the $850, the longer they drag it out, the longer people talk about it. Eventually it could be, "Remember AT&T, they didn't pay a guy $850 and filed for bankruptcy."

Bottom line they shouldn't advertise "unlimited" that is limited by AT&T. The same goes for the rest of the carriers.

Morac
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Riverside, NJ

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by Kilroy:

Bottom line they shouldn't advertise "unlimited" that is limited by AT&T. The same goes for the rest of the carriers.

AT&T doesn't advertise "unlimited" since they don't offer an unlimited data plan anymore (haven't since 2010). The only company that still does is Sprint.

This only affects people grandfathered in under AT&T's unlimited data plan. Granted there are millions of people who fall under that old plan and AT&T can't afford to pay all of them $850.

Pirate515
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Pirate515

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by Morac:

AT&T doesn't advertise "unlimited" since they don't offer an unlimited data plan anymore (haven't since 2010). The only company that still does is Sprint.

This only affects people grandfathered in under AT&T's unlimited data plan. Granted there are millions of people who fall under that old plan and AT&T can't afford to pay all of them $850.

The interesting thing that can work against AT&T is that they are extending contracts to those who upgrade their smartphones while also grandfathering them into unlimited plans. So if AT&T locks someone in for 2 years and lets them keep unlimited, then they must hold up their end and provide unlimited, or let that customer out of contract ETF-free. Unless they were sly enough to bury a throttling clause somewhere in fine print, then the customer has no case against them.

I think what's coming next is the end of grandfathering. If you are an existing customer and want to upgrade to a new smartphone, you'll have to agree to a tiered plan. From what I hear, T-Mobile is doing this already.

Kilroy
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Kilroy

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by Pirate515:

Unless they were sly enough to bury a throttling clause somewhere in fine print, then the customer has no case against them.

They did, they call it network management. But, no matter how you slice it or dice it, any thing they do to reduce the amount of data you can consume means that it isn't "unlimited".

Morac
Cat god
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Morac

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by Kilroy:

They did, they call it network management. But, no matter how you slice it or dice it, any thing they do to reduce the amount of data you can consume means that it isn't "unlimited".

Also calling what they're doing "network management" would be hard pressed considering once the throttling kicks in, it occurs regardless if there is network congestion (it's needed) or not.

It kind of reminds me of Comcast's old policy of blocking all BitTorrent traffic for "network management" purposes. Comcast's network management policy changed for the better, somehow I doubt AT&T's will though.
CXM_Splicer
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The fact that attorney's fees would be paid should AT&T lose will encourage a lawyer to take the case on contingency. Depending on the state, a judge could also hit AT&T with substantial punitive damages if he/she felt their case was totally without merit.

The fact that the legal system is too expensive for the little guy lets big business get away with A LOT of injustice. RIAA/MPAA both depend heavily on this for their extortion of music/movie fans. Insurance companies are also starting to deny or underpay claims simply because they know the victims can't peruse them.
MrHappy316
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1099-C for the win if they don't pay up?
Expand your moderator at work

HarleyYac
Lee
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In the 1980's I went to small claims for GM for @ $800.00 for transmission repairs. GM lawyer told me that "It costs GM more for the process then the complaint is worth" They have to put together a defense which takes weeks. I had all my bills and repair records. They promptly sent a check in the mail after their "crushing" defeat from lil ole me

jseymour
join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by HarleyYac:

In the 1980's I went to small claims for GM for @ $800.00 for transmission repairs. GM lawyer told me that "It costs GM more for the process then the complaint is worth" They have to put together a defense which takes weeks. I had all my bills and repair records. They promptly sent a check in the mail after their "crushing" defeat from lil ole me

Bingo!

If SBC has already filed their appeal, they've already spent probably about 10x that $850 small claims court award


HarleyYac
Lee
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HarleyYac

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

my point..... has been made

FFH5
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FFH5

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by HarleyYac:

my point..... has been made

Has it? The 1980's isn't now. GM faced class action lawsuits then and settling to damp out possible class action lawsuits was a cost effective strategy. Now, the USSC has all but killed most class action possibilities. The incentive to settle to avoid that is no longer there. It now may be more cost effective to crush early Small Claim Court filers to dissuade others from filing.

HarleyYac
Lee
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HarleyYac

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

It will cost them. If a few hundred people do this all over the country ... if not thousands... and 50% win..... Yes it will cost them:)

FFH5
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FFH5

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by HarleyYac:

It will cost them. If a few hundred people do this all over the country ... if not thousands... and 50% win..... Yes it will cost them:)

Even if you are right, and thousands file in Small Claims Court, and even if AT&T fights them by appealing and runs up their costs, do you actually think that would make them change their policy that is making them 100's of millions of dollars when their costs will amount to a few million at worst?

HarleyYac
Lee
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HarleyYac

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

No.. That we can agree... Mass defections WILL! Protest with your wallet,

•••
fiberguy2
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Not Bingo. Sorry... AT&T is fighting this because they want, no, they NEED to make sure that the copycat small claims lawsuits don't become the fad of 2012.

And SBC didn't file anything.. I'm sure A&T Inc. did.;) (Call them who they are.. SBC no longer exists.. AT&T Inc. does)

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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That's because they were sensible.

AT&T is spiteful and will spend $1,000,000 to cheat you out of a nickel, apparently.

They want to maintain the image that Resistance to their DeathStar is futile.
tcope
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I don't think collecting is the point as he had to know that they would appeal if they lost. I suspect that AT&Ts plan was to see if they won or lost in small claims and if they lost, appeaing and moving it to a higher court.

But the _real_ loss for AT&T is the publicty that this case generated! AT&T being AT&T could not see the forest for the trees and allowed this case to go against them. Their mentality appears to be that they can't loose anything (T-mobile buy out should have woken them up... but they are AT&T).

Now the cat is out of the bag and it's news. People will be jumping on the band wagon to show that throttling does not curb network usage... it's to wean people off "unlimited" plans. AT&T does not want to deal with the fact that they no longer want to deliver what they were selling.

Bottom line is every carrier wants to (wanted to) market "unlimited" in order to sell contracts and make money. They also want to sell iPhones and other smart phones to make money. They want to market their 4G to be better then everyone elses... but when it comes to delivering on all of that... well, they simply don't want to.

IowaCowboy
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It would be cheaper for them to pay the $850. Lawyers are expensive. Litigation is expensive. And losing a case to the plaintiff is going to be even more expensive. Each state has laws against unfair and deceptive acts. In Mass it's chapter 93A of the Mass General Laws that cover unfair and deceptive acts. Wait until some state AG gets ahold of this, they'll settle and not admit any wrongdoing (as corporations do when they get dragged into court). He had a contract with AT&T that said unlimited, they breached that contract, and now he is entitled to relief by a court of competent jurisdiction.

I am not an attorney but I have done quite a bit of research on consumer protection laws.

elwoodblues
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The funny thing is that it's going to cost AT&T a lot more to fight this then just pay. I suspect they don't want to set a precedence, the cost will rise significantly.

Pirate515
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Pirate515

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by elwoodblues:

The funny thing is that it's going to cost AT&T a lot more to fight this then just pay. I suspect they don't want to set a precedence, the cost will rise significantly.

Exactly. Paying $850 to one guy is chump change to them; however, with many others coming out of the woodwork claiming their share, things could get painful on their wallet.

However, the publicity that this is generating could prove to be even more painful on AT&T financially. If they lose the appeal, a lot more people will probably come out wanting their money than in the scenario above.

What AT&T should have done when they received their summons is offered to pay the guy a little more what he was asking for in return for him signing a confidentiality agreement. I'm sure he would have happily taken the money and we would not be here talking about this in the first place.

FFH5
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FFH5

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Re: He won; but will he ever collect?

said by Pirate515:

If they lose the appeal, a lot more people will probably come out wanting their money than in the scenario above.

Well, we could follow that up to see what happens a few years from now when it finally gets heard in a regular civil court.

KrK
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AT&T should have to pay legal fees when fighting a won small actions claim.

So even if AT&T wins they should have to play all his legal expenses. That way he can hire an expensive legal team and know that it will all be on AT&T.

In other words, AT&T should just pay the $850 and not fight it, because if they choose to fight it, the legal fees alone make it as stupid as it really, actually, is.

Unfortunately it doesn't really work this way.

DataRiker
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No offense but your representation of small claims court is erroneous at least in the two states I have used them.

I took two large corporations to small claims court and won both times. The first time took about 2 hours total. 50% of which was just filling out paperwork.

I received my judgment on both cases in less than 2 months.

tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Gulfport, MS

tc1uscg

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Wrong AT&T

Psst, AT&T, at the end of the day, it's YOUR CUSTOMERS who can make or break you. Not your contract.

•••••

SteveLV702
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Las Vegas, NV

SteveLV702

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or more likely

or more likely they go to regular court AT&T Losses has to pay more money + all legal fees.........
tom thomas
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tom thomas

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total BS

in my opinion this award is total BS.

AT&T should keep the $850 and this customer should be grandfathered into a truly unlimited plan without throttling for life.

he should get what the marketing people promised not some cash that sends the message its OK to advertising falsely, we just have to pay up later if we want to change.

Xioden
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Xioden

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Binding Arbitration

I imagine they'll be pushing the binding arbitration clause in the contracts to get it thrown out of court.

After that they just have to cite that one verdict to anyone else who tries in small claims court and they save themselves a lot of money, and get to keep the "unlimited" cash cow going strong.

Steve B
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Auburn, WA

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Steve B

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Well...

I don't have the unlimited plan anymore. That's fine by me. I'm definitely not siding with AT&T on this. I think they and anyone that defends their actions are raiding the local dispensary too much. However, AT&T's network has been shown (3G) to be extremely slow and I'm usually always by a faster WiFi and so, the tiered plan (2GB/$25) works out for me because I only use maybe 300MB or so a month on their network. In my case it works out for both me and AT&T. They want me on the tiered plans and they have me but at the same time, I pay them less. However, AT&T needs to get their heads out of the ass and start treating their customers with a little more respect.

I also wanted to add that if AT&T would've kept their promises of letting users who use less, pay less, then life might actually be good. However, myself among others predicted what would happen and it did. AT&T set the new minimum to $30 for a tiered plan. You end up paying the same for less. It was never about having the grandma/grandpa users save money...it was all about AT&T lining their pockets. That's really messed up because all AT&T did to get the tiered plans going is promise it would save people money....for new customers here on out...it doesn't...its the exact opposite.

Someone may have posted I think already recently but, I think it fits again.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· re=share


It has a guy talking about the tiered/unlimited plans from AT&T.

KrK
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KrK

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Re: Well...

The 5% number is BS, IMHO. What AT&T is claiming is that only 5% use 2GB or more data a month, so anyone who uses that much or more is in the 5%.

I suspect the 5% number comes from total customers with phones, period, and I suspect that a LOT more then 5% of the customers are being hit with these upcharges.

A LOT more.
BiggA
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Ridiculous

It's unbelievable some of the BS court cases that are getting thrown around. It is totally absurd that this guy was in ANY way wronged. It CLEARLY says in his contract that AT&T reserves the right to manage their network traffic. He signed it, now he should have to live by it. AT&T is nice enough that they even would let him switch to the current plan of 3GB for $30.

That, and it's suspicious that he's an unemployed truck driver. Qualified truck drivers are hugely in demand.

••••

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan

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Lawsuit Instructions Page

How to sue AT&T....

»www.Taporc.com/
dubenezic
join:2004-05-06
Elizabeth, NJ

dubenezic

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Lawyers

Now the "forum lawyers" will be coming out of the woodwork.
scenic route
join:2009-12-14
Poway, CA

scenic route

Member

Judge Judy vs small claims court

You do realize how Judge Judy and those other TV shows work, don't you? The losing party never pays a single penny out of pocket. Both parties sign a contract up front which states that the TV production company will pay the losers judgement.

That is how they get people to go on those shows (who often know they would lose in small claims court) and make complete fools of themselves in front of the cameras. They have no skin in the game.

Spend a couple hours observing small claims court and you will quickly understand how realistic Judge Judy is.

Lastly, you can almost always get paid your small claims court judgement by liening the losing parties vehicles/home. Eventually they will want to sell and that is when you collect. However, it could take years.