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Comments on news posted 2012-04-11 08:59:40: While smart meters help save utilities money on truck rolls while improving data collection -- the migration hasn't been without issues, with many people reporting that the devices interfere with their home networks or decimate connectivity to their .. ..


ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

??

quote:
Since the meter is read remotely, detection of the fraud is very difficult
These meters dont have the standard readouts on the meter itself? If so, these people are crazy. All it takes is one visit from the Electric co to see the proper usage?

If typical readouts arent on it, thats simply a poor design.

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc

Member

Re: ??

I suspect the typical readouts are also being altered as they're now digital in nature. No more spinning discs or dials.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: ??

Then thats the problem right there, they should be redesigned to be "hybrid" so that visual checks, *can* be done if needed. Or at the very least, once a year.

Smith6612
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North Tonawanda, NY
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Smith6612

MVM

Re: ??

They are. The meters in my area installed in the early 2000's are designed to Wirelessly report to the Power Company (on a channel that does not interfere with Wi-Fi and such) and they also have a visual, digital display on the unit.

I've understood for years that peak usage electricity is more expensive. When the power company came by and replaced our old mechanical one with a new one, our electric bill actually went down a little bit, mainly due to the way we use power in our home. Seeing usage by the hour is useful as well.
25139889 (banned)
join:2011-10-25
Toledo, OH

25139889 (banned)

Member

Re: ??

all new power meters are digital. The dials are a thing of the past and gone with.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

ke4pym

Premium Member

Re: ??

said by 25139889:

all new power meters are digital. The dials are a thing of the past and gone with.

No they're not. I just got a new one recently and its a turnie dial thingy-mah-bob.
25139889 (banned)
join:2011-10-25
Toledo, OH

25139889 (banned)

Member

Re: ??

and its still a thing of the past. Maybe "new" to you but chances are the power company still hasn't bought new ones. But digital is new. those dials are old and out dated.

And this is a reason the power grid is so far behind and lacking. Companies REFUSE to update anything.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

1 recommendation

88615298 (banned)

Member

bullshit

Just more astroturf by the same people that think Wi-Fi gives you cancer.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

1 recommendation

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: bullshit

said by 88615298:

Just more astroturf by the same people that think Wi-Fi gives you cancer.

Yes because the FBI is totally clueless when it comes to crime, totally.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

Re: bullshit

said by pnh102:

said by 88615298:

Just more astroturf by the same people that think Wi-Fi gives you cancer.

Yes because the FBI is totally clueless when it comes to crime, totally.

Sometimes, they are.
mdlund0
join:2011-08-02
Lawrence, KS

mdlund0 to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
Yea, they were totally on top of that little 9/11 thing.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

Re: bullshit

said by mdlund0:

Yea, they were totally on top of that little 9/11 thing.

Yes, which is why information about the pending attacks landed on the presidents desk.
Maxo

Maxo to 88615298

Premium Member

to 88615298
said by 88615298:

Just more astroturf by the same people that think Wi-Fi gives you cancer.

Astroturfing is where an organization poses as a third-part to voice support for themselves, giving the appearance of popularity with grass-roots opinions.
How does that describe what the FBI is doing here?

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Not a smart meter problem

This has nothing to do with smart meters. You can use a magnet on an old fashioned mechanical meter and slow them down to steal electricity (yes, it's stealing.)

The bureau may not be 100% correct in saying that it's more difficult to detect theft with a smart meter. All someone has to do is remove the magnets just prior to the day that they know the meter reader is coming. In fact, with smart meters they can detect the theft even easier because readings are taken at least hourly and a sharp change in usage (such as a 50 to 75 percent drop) can raise a red flag. Only someone completely stupid would leave the magnets on all the time because they'll be caught easily.

And there's no real reason to spread this FUD about a good technology. Smart meters are a good technology. Our cooperative is 100% smart meter (AMR) and the end result is more accurate billing, no estimated bills, automatic outage notification and the ability to view your usage on their website billing portal. You can also take advantage of ETS (by using a second meter and an ETS heating unit) to heat your home at reduced rates. Sure, they can disconnect you remotely but if you pay your bill on time every month there's no problem.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

And now they can bill you more per Kw during peak hours. Don't think they are not thinking about forcing you to do your laundry at 3am because the rates are cheaper.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by battleop:

And now they can bill you more per Kw during peak hours. Don't think they are not thinking about forcing you to do your laundry at 3am because the rates are cheaper.

So what. The utilities already have to pay more during peak hours. They're just passing on the cost where it belongs instead of having everyone subsidize peak usage.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

That's why they add the "Fuel Adjustment" fee to the bill. I suspect that they will bill for peak usage and not do away with the "Fuel Adjustment" or "Meter Reading" fees.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

1 recommendation

fifty nine

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by battleop:

That's why they add the "Fuel Adjustment" fee to the bill. I suspect that they will bill for peak usage and not do away with the "Fuel Adjustment" or "Meter Reading" fees.

It's not about fuel. It's about demand.

The suppliers add a demand charge during peak usage. This has nothing to do with fuel. This has to do with scrambling to fire up additional generation capacity to take care of that peak demand. It's more complex than that but that's essentially what it boils down to.

Your utility currently absorbs this and spreads this among all customers. That's not really fair. With smart meters and demand based billing, the heavy peak users will pay for their peak usage while those who decide to conserve during peak hours won't have to pay for peak users.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

1 recommendation

88615298 (banned) to battleop

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to battleop
said by battleop:

And now they can bill you more per Kw during peak hours. Don't think they are not thinking about forcing you to do your laundry at 3am because the rates are cheaper.

yeah and? Utilities have a actual reason to encourage people to reduce usage during the day.

I guess cell phone companies taking away your minutes M-F between 6 AM and 9 PM are fucking you over and forcing you to make calls between 9 PM and 6 AM and on week-ends when minutes don't count.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

In the Summer heat the peak use is in the day and at night use is lower.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to 88615298

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to 88615298
So you are excited to see your power bill go up?

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

1 recommendation

fifty nine

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by battleop:

So you are excited to see your power bill go up?

I'm excited about not having to subsidize peak users. REally excited that everyone will be paying their fair share instead of me having to subsidize them.

bbbc
join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica

bbbc

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by fifty nine:

I'm excited about not having to subsidize peak users. REally excited that everyone will be paying their fair share instead of me having to subsidize them.

Yeah, corporations are all about fair share, give me a break. The problem with your joy is that these utilities don't pass the savings on to supposed Honest Joes like you. That savings usually gets passed on as executive / management bonuses. I'm sure you would dig Internet UBB (Usage Based Billing) too.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

My utility is not a corporation.

I'm sure it sucks to be on one that is though!

nonamesleft
join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

nonamesleft

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by fifty nine:

My utility is not a corporation.

I'm sure it sucks to be on one that is though!

Utility's are NOT your friend, even if it isn't a large corporation. They will all find ways to milk your pocket-book.
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO
·Google Fiber

me1212 to bbbc

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to bbbc
Electricity is usage based billing isn't it? I get what your saying though, the difference is bandwidth is not a limited resource, sure the pipe may only be so big but given enough time there is not limit to how much data can travel through it. Electricity is a limited resource for now.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by me1212:

Electricity is usage based billing isn't it? I get what your saying though, the difference is bandwidth is not a limited resource, sure the pipe may only be so big but given enough time there is not limit to how much data can travel through it. Electricity is a limited resource for now.

Bandwidth is a limited resource too because it is oversubscribed.

The electric grid is oversubscribed AND there is limited generation capacity, so electric utilities have two reasons to ration.
25139889 (banned)
join:2011-10-25
Toledo, OH

25139889 (banned)

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

The Grid is beyond oversubscribed and if it's not maintained and rebuilt from the ground up it won't be pretty for the next blackout. It will be more than NY and Ohio going out.

iamwhatiam
@verizon.net

iamwhatiam to fifty nine

Anon

to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

said by me1212:

Electricity is usage based billing isn't it? I get what your saying though, the difference is bandwidth is not a limited resource, sure the pipe may only be so big but given enough time there is not limit to how much data can travel through it. Electricity is a limited resource for now.

Bandwidth is a limited resource too because it is oversubscribed.

You apparently don't understand what the term "limited resource" means -- it has a very specific usage and does not apply to something such as bandwidth.
25139889 (banned)
join:2011-10-25
Toledo, OH

25139889 (banned)

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

yes it does. How do you figure its not? It is limited due to the amount of people you put on it. You can only go so far. Once you hit that cap you're done.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to iamwhatiam

Member

to iamwhatiam
A 1Gbps link has 1Gbps of bandwidth, it isn't unlimited, you cannot push more than 1Gbps through it. If you want to increase bandwidth, you have to upgrade equipment and possibly the wiring.

While fiber may have theoretically infinite bandwidth, physical, practical, technical, economical, etc. constraints limits usable bandwidth to a tiny fraction of that, meaning that the achievable bandwidth at a particular moment in time is always very much finite. While speeds in excess of 3Tbps/strand have been demonstrated, the laser setups required to make it happen are not practical for everyday deployments, which is why those fancy arrangements are almost exclusively applied to trans-oceanic and other similar situations where pulling a new cable or pulling cables with gobs of spare strands is not an option. On trans-oceanic cables, each extra strand means one extra amplifier every 120km or so, so the number of strands that can be carried is limited by power.

While you may have lots of bandwidth between two points, it will never be unlimited.

iamwhatiam
@verizon.net

iamwhatiam

Anon

Re: Not a smart meter problem

You, too, should try looking up the term "limited resource" as it applies to "non-renewable" and [not to] "renewable"... and learn what each means as well as the situations where it's appropriate to use the term "limited resource" (which ain't here).
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO

me1212 to fifty nine

Member

to fifty nine
"AND there is limited generation capacity"

thats what I meant when I said bandwidth was unlimited. Sure the pipe may be oversold and it may not be sending full speed out to you, but it doesn't have a limited generation capacity.
zoomer1
join:2007-09-06
Rochester, NY

zoomer1 to bbbc

Member

to bbbc
Utilities are regulated entities. If everything remains the same, average users will see no change to their bill. Users who actively try to shift their consumption to off peak times save utilities from ramping expensive peak generation, and are compensated for their trouble. These who demand that their AC, washer, dryer, dishwasher and charging electric car all be done at these couple hours around 7pm and 7am can do so, and pay for the convenience.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

skeechan to fifty nine

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to fifty nine
I'd be happier if I didn't have to subsidize local power utility idiocy like them spending millions to put their name on a ball park a few years ago...as if they need to advertise to a CAPTIVE audience.

•••••

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to fifty nine

Member

to fifty nine
You really think they are doing this for your bottom line?
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned) to battleop

Member

to battleop
said by battleop:

So you are excited to see your power bill go up?

How is that? They are giving me a lower rate at night. So that's when I'll use the washing machine, dishwasher etc etc. Hot water heater uses more electricity than any other appliance. About 1/4 of your electric bill can be traced back to your hot water heater. Also they are saving money buy not having to pay a bunch of guys to go read meters. Also if there is storm and a power outage they aren't having to make 3, 4 or more trips to restore everyone's power.

•••

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to battleop

Premium Member

to battleop
said by battleop:

So you are excited to see your power bill go up?

mine went up 240% after getting my "mandatory" smartmeter!
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

said by dvd536:

said by battleop:

So you are excited to see your power bill go up?

mine went up 240% after getting my "mandatory" smartmeter!

bullshit. If it did it wasn't because of the smart meter. PROOF or you fuck goats in the ass.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
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to battleop
said by battleop:

And now they can bill you more per Kw during peak hours. Don't think they are not thinking about forcing you to do your laundry at 3am because the rates are cheaper.

Peak/off-peak mechanical meters have been around for decades. This is not something new.
jp10558
Premium Member
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY

jp10558

Premium Member

Re: Not a smart meter problem

I was wondering about this. My grandmother used to talk about "night rate" electricity and running the clothes dryer at night ...

iamwhatiam
@verizon.net

iamwhatiam to fifty nine

Anon

to fifty nine
They should setup an electromagnet (oh, the irony) which is activated only when some heavy-use appliance (an oven, for example) is in use--total usage will look fairly "normal".

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium Member
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

Anonymous_ to fifty nine

Premium Member

to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

This has nothing to do with smart meters. You can use a magnet on an old fashioned mechanical meter and slow them down to steal electricity (yes, it's stealing.)

the only people stealing is the Power Co with the outrages rates. charging 2-3x the market price

the normal price should be 0.07 per kwh from water turbine type.

most charge upto .25 per kwh fossil fuels

fossil fuels are NOT cheaper. as they claim.

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

Cabal

Premium Member

Sure...

quote:
Since the meter is read remotely, detection of the fraud is very difficult.
Sure, if your analytics software hasn't been upgraded in 30 years. One of the key features of Meter Data Management software is fraud detection, and suddenly cutting your bill in half every month throws up a big red flag.

••••

hurleyp
join:2000-06-20
Ottawa, ON

hurleyp

Member

Data Sharing...

Interesting note from the BBC on smart meter data sharing:

»www.bbc.com/news/technol ··· 17663679

And some fun government arithmetic from the article:

"The meters should be fitted in 30m UK homes by 2019, at a cost of £11.7bn."

and...

"But the government believes the high cost of the mass rollout will be offset by the £7bn or so of savings it will bring about for both consumers and power suppliers."

"offset"????

•••••••••••••••••••••
Kommie2 (banned)
join:2003-05-13
united state

Kommie2 (banned)

Member

Anyone try the magnet thing?

Anyone try the magnet thing?

HaloFans
join:2006-12-18

HaloFans

Member

Re: Anyone try the magnet thing?

Think it only works on the mechanical designs with the magnet and rotating wheel, so that means this hack has been around forever.

Otherwise, if it's a purely digital one, it probably won't work. The new meters that the electric company have been installing don't run this way any more.

Actually in the article, people have been connecting computers and reprogramming the usage model on the new digital meters. That's the problem.
funny0
join:2010-12-22

funny0

Member

new device

the wireless magnetic DUMB meter. Has battery and turns on about 10-20% randomly but when on stays on for 30 minutes.
LOL i can see it now like a psx modder for kitchen and homes
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

new "SPIN" on rate increases..

IMO, this is just another EXCU$E for the rate increases being seen in just about every MAJOR CITY for electricity.. somebody's stealing, therefore they can justify raisng rates. Ordinarily, this is already factored in, but just becasue this makes the news, they'll find some way to justify an even higher increase.

Make sure you get your share of "FREE" power at libraries and other places where you can plug in laptops, tablets, cell phones, battery chargers, etc. You should also charge up when your using your car.. you're charging your car battery which doesn't typically need excess power when it's full, that extra power in traditional vehicles is wasted (except in electric hybrids). Might as well squeeze every last spare kilowatt you're burning $4+ a gallon for transportation anyway.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

Member

Re: new "SPIN" on rate increases..

paranoid much?
ShellMMG
join:2009-04-16
Grass Lake, MI

ShellMMG

Member

Time heals all wounds?

Maybe October is just too recent to erase years of abuse at the hands of satellite caps, but the minute I saw the headline I thought the meters were getting hacked for FREE BROADBAND use. Is that nuts or what...is it even possible??
meowmeow
join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT

meowmeow

Member

Re: Time heals all wounds?

Nuts In the nicest way, it's just not possible. The mesh is to communicate with each other, not a connection to the public Internet. One hopes. Even if they do, for some absurd reason, use the public Internet (which they darn well shouldn't unless they're IPv6, given the IPv4 address space crunch), it sure wouldn't be "broadband" speed.

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

ctceo

Premium Member

RBE would make this irrelevant.

As subject.
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

1 recommendation

etaadmin

Member

I tried to hack my power meter

Click for full size
and this is what happened

jap
Premium Member
join:2003-08-10
038xx

1 recommendation

jap

Premium Member

Re: I tried to hack my power meter

said by etaadmin:

and this is what happened

Now THAT got a long hardy laugh! Thanks.
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow

Premium Member

some smart meters are getting pulled

apparently, some people don't like erroneous bills!. maybe this will catch on. then the companies won't have to worry about hacking!. »www.city-data.com/forum/ ··· ton.html
tkdslr
join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL

tkdslr

Member

Re: some smart meters are getting pulled

said by iknow:

apparently, some people don't like erroneous bills!. maybe this will catch on. then the companies won't have to worry about hacking!. »www.city-data.com/forum/ ··· ton.html

Most of these new smart meters are programmed not to give a credit for energy returned to grid. That can be a problem with underloaded reactive loads like electric motors used in poop pumps, compressors, etc, that may return some power back to grid.

I suspect the net over billing could be several percent, maybe more.
Additionally these meters are not suitable for grid tied PV installations..

Second, nearly all of them have remote power interruption capability. So your power can be remotely interrupted at any time, by the power co or by some hackers(it's just a matter of time). And your neighbors will be none the wiser unless they go inside your house or notice something odd.

This could easily inflict major losses on the electricity consumer. Spoiled food, disabled alarm system, toxic conditions in an aquarium, or worse.

Thirdly, unlike mechanical meters where the mass of the disk act likes low pass filter, these smart meters can be susceptible to RFI generated by the load, this could result in gross billing errors. Note: There is no way to real way to test for these types of problems in advance.

So far, I've manage to refuse the installation of one of these smart meters..
But my luck may run out, soon or later.

Mads
@wideopenwest.com

Mads

Anon

smart meters

I personally can't wait for a smart meter I have 4 plug in grid tie inverters plugged it to 11 135 Watt Kyocera solar panels
maybe the new smarts meters will help lower my bill even more because during the day I use no power and my meter spins backwards, intern saves my family cash I think my last electric bill was $68.00 for a 5 bedroom house 3 kids 4 computers running all the time .

jack b
Gone Fishing
MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod

jack b

MVM

Re: smart meters

Make sure your power company knows you have solar PV grid tied so when the day comes and you do get a new "smart" meter it will come programmed for NET metering.

In other words, they need to know in advance to subtract the kwhr's you push out during the day, otherwise you're in for a really BIG (unpleasant) surprise!

Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium Member
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30

Doctor Olds to Mads

Premium Member

to Mads
said by Mads :

I personally can't wait for a smart meter I have 4 plug in grid tie inverters plugged it to 11 135 Watt Kyocera solar panels
maybe the new smarts meters will help lower my bill even more

Expect a triple or higher bill!

Smart meters blamed for hydro bill spikes
»www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet ··· Columbia
quote:
Steele on Your Side has heard from dozens of viewers who say their hydro bills have doubled or tripled since their smart meter was installed.

GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium Member
join:2001-10-29
Indianapolis, IN

GlobalMind

Premium Member

We have one

As I suspect many do now.

I have yet to see any interference, not to say it can't happen.

Yes it does have a digital display on the front of it.

Bill Neilson
Premium Member
join:2009-07-08
Alexandria, VA

Bill Neilson

Premium Member

Not surprising. We seem to have many

posters here that believe that the ISP's have the right to push these meters out with little to no accuracy and that the consumer should be the one to figure out any and all errors.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium Member
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

Anonymous_

Premium Member

2.4GHz

Wifi Keeps losing INTERNET every 10min 15 min Damn stupid meters

AdamantForce
@verizon.net

AdamantForce

Anon

WTF is all the qq'ing about?

If your bill is too high, simple buy a big honkin solar panel. If you generate enough power, as to where you are adding to the grid, the power company will PAY you every month. ANd LOL at the meters. My meter guy showed me how to rig them up for less usage. LOL And nothing is better than an inside job. ☻