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Comments on news posted 2012-09-18 18:28:15: A new study finds that the ISP and entertainment industry's upcoming six strikes anti-piracy plan is far from consumer friendly, supporting previous criticisms from groups like the EFF. ..

ISurfTooMuch

join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

Because making a real case is too damn hard

If you look at this plan, it reduces this whole business to what's essentially an administrative process where those making the judgements are the ones running the process. It's like when you get sent to the principal's office by a teacher. While the principal may be a fair person, he can't be entirely fair because he is a part of the same institution as the teacher who sent you there, so their goals are essentially the same, and the principal has an incentive to take the side of the teacher.

Now, while the above scenario might be considered acceptable for a kid (although I've heard of enough abuses of process to doubt that), we're talking about adults here. So why are they doing it? Simple: going through the courts is just too damn cumbersome in many cases. With this setup, the ISP's and the entertainment industry get to set the ground rules upon which people are judged. The customers of these ISP's have absolutely no say in the matter, and, at the end of the day, they have no real recourse if they don't like the outcome. And even the punishments are rigged. One of them is supposed to force the "convicted" to view educational material, but that material is created by the entertainment industry, which will present its own interpretation of how copyright law works or ought to work. Do groups like the EFF and the ACLU get equal input into what goes into this material? Of course not.

This setup resembles a situation where you walk into a store and are accused of shoplifting a jacket because you're wearing one that looks like one that was recently stolen, and you weren't carrying a receipt to prove you paid for yours. You wouldn't be arrested, but your "case" would be discussed and decided by the Chamber of Commerce, and, if you were found guilty, you'd be banned from entering all participating stores, which would include most all of them.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

corporate america

this is what you get when the government is run by and for corporations.

...and the extremely wealthy.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Re: corporate america

And you have telecom owning entertainment channels and programming....

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

The EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards to be invoked in a civil process. It isn't ever going to happen.

Their solution is to make it so costly to enforce copyright law, nobody would bother. And they want any system to provide PROOF a specific human being did the infringement instead of a residence related IP address. That also is impossible unless cameras, like 1984, were put in every house.

IOW those 2 entities want copyright infringement to not exist and will do everything in their power to stop any attempts at enforcement.
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

said by FFH:

The EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards to be invoked in a civil process. It isn't ever going to happen.

I don't think this would be such a bad idea. I know it is highly unlikely but if the Constitution were to be amended so that, as pertaining to civil lawsuits, the following rules were to apply:

1. The plaintiff must prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, as opposed to the current standard of preponderance of evidence.

2. No defendant can be compelled to testify against himself.

3. A trial judge in any civil case in which the plaintiff loses must award some form of compensation to the defendant if the defendant can show that he will endure hardship as a result of paying for legal expenses.
--
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Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
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said by FFH:

It isn't ever going to happen.

Why?
--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

said by Noah Vail:

said by FFH:

It isn't ever going to happen.

Why?

Cost, if nothing else.
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat···onalism/

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
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Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

said by FFH:

said by Noah Vail:

said by FFH:

It isn't ever going to happen.

Why?

Cost, if nothing else.

There's significant cost associated w/ 6 strikes.
--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
WernerSchutz

join:2009-08-04
Sugar Land, TX

2 edits
Scum will always cheer the crooks in power to screw the citizen. Happened in Communism, Nazism, ancient Rome, etc. Eventually comes to an end quite violently and the vermin is exterminated, for a while.

Idiots were cheering Tiberius, Khruschev and Hitler as they are now the oligarchy that is killing what is left of the US and the civilized world with draconian laws to protect shit at the expense of the rights brave Americans fought to preserve.

Just keep that in mind.

FFH
Premium
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Tavistock NJ
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Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

said by WernerSchutz:

Scum will always cheer the crooks in power to screw the citizen. Happened in Communism, Nazism, ancient Rome, etc. Eventually comes to an end quite violently and the vermin is exterminated, for a while.

Idiots were cheering Tiberius, Khruschev and Hitler as they are now the oligarchy that is killing what is left of the US and the civilized world with draconian laws to protect shit at the expense of the rights brave Americans fought to preserve.

Just keep that in mind.

Is that a threat?
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_home/
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat···onalism/

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
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Kelowna, BC
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1 edit

Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

It happens to be the truth.
WernerSchutz

join:2009-08-04
Sugar Land, TX
Not at all kind sir, just history. Freedom and courage triumphs over greed and laws bought by those that try to stifle progress.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
quote:
Scum will always cheer the crooks in power to screw the citizen. Happened in Communism, Nazism, ancient Rome, etc. Eventually comes to an end quite violently and the vermin is exterminated, for a while.

Interesting that this particular lesson does not seem to persist through history. Some mistakes can be learned and avoided, some are destined to repeat themselves. This, unfortunately, is a repeater.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

said by CXM_Splicer:

Interesting that this particular lesson does not seem to persist through history. Some mistakes can be learned and avoided, some are destined to repeat themselves. This, unfortunately, is a repeater.

This is what happens when a society puts money and things (toys) ahead of what is truly important. Greed spawns corruption.
vp71inet

join:2005-05-12
Englishtown, NJ

Re: EFF & ACLU want criminal safeguards in a civil process

Man I love this thread.

Harsh but truer words I have never heard spoken
on BBR.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
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1 recommendation

Consumers have always been guilty until proven innocent.

How quickly we forget. The music industry has contracted home copying paranoia since the MPAA lost the Betamax lawsuit. Back in the days when consumers copied their legally purchased music on cassettes for convenience the RIAA lobbied and lobbied and lobbied until the government required consumers to pay a surcharge for all "High Fidelity Cassettes" which went to copyright control agencies, even if the cassettes were not used to record copyrighted music. Consumers guilty until proven innocent.

Then came the Music CD ROM with SCMS to prevent copying a copy. The music industry levied a surcharge even if the Music CD ROM was not used for recording music. The music CD Recorders were configured to only record on Music CD ROMS for which a surcharge had been paid.

What the RIAA and MPAA would like is for the government require a surcharge paid by all broadband subscribers, to copyright control agencies. Such rules can be put in place because the Music and Movie industry can afford to pay off government officials to write laws to screw the ordinary citizen. I believe that the Music/Movie Pigs want to create such a controversy with the six strikes policy, that the government will pass laws to require all broadband users to pay extortion to the Music/Movie Pigs.

vzw emp

@144.191.148.x

Re: Consumers have always been guilty until proven innocent.

So the MAFIAA is part of Mitt's 47%?

This is just another example of the Golden Rule at work: He who has the gold makes the rules.

newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
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join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD
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Since when ... ?

quote:
A new study finds that the ISP and entertainment industry's upcoming six strikes anti-piracy plan is far from consumer friendly,
Since WHEN have ISPs, the entertainment industry, wireless providers, cableTV providers, satellite providers, etc EVER been consumer friendly?

The put on a great song & dance, and pay "lip service" to customer service, but their bottom line is all about screwing the consumer for all they can get.

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

1 recommendation

Big deal

OK so you get 6 warnings then nothing happens. MAYBE you get throttled. Maybe.
Uncomm0n

join:2005-04-21
Centreville, VA

Re: Big deal

Anyone else think along the lines that if they happen to get throttled, you should pro-rate your own bill? I guarantee if I was to ever get throttled, I would pay my bill based on the percentage decreased in speed. I have symmetrical 35bmbps Fios, if they throttled me to say 1mpbs each way, the amount i pay towards my bill would be reduced by 97%. I pay $50 for the service at a full 35mpbs, so that works out to be $1.43 per 1 mpbs and that is exactly how much Verizon would get paid by me because that is the cost of presuming guilt before innocence.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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1 recommendation

Bull, ISPs aren't the police

Let the MafIAA go to a judge with their evidence, obtain a subpoena and serve it on the ISP like everyone else would have to do.

HardwareGeek

join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY

1 recommendation

This is a Civil matter not Criminal

In Civil matters isn't the burden of proof on the accused? So there for even if the study says the six strikes thing assumes we are guilty, in a civil matter that is always so.

I hate the idea, but the study imo is a bunch of bull shit to get us angry.
--
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL

Re: This is a Civil matter not Criminal

said by HardwareGeek:

In Civil matters isn't the burden of proof on the accused? So there for even if the study says the six strikes thing assumes we are guilty, in a civil matter that is always so.

Not true. Burden of proof is on the plaintiff, which would be MPAA et al. At least initially. The defense will eventually also need to provide proof, but its not accurate to say that the burden is entirely on the defendant.

In criminal cases burden is on the state.
--
TheGlobalMind.com / Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? / Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. - Ralph Waldo Emerson / Free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
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said by HardwareGeek:

In Civil matters isn't the burden of proof on the accused? So there for even if the study says the six strikes thing assumes we are guilty, in a civil matter that is always so.

Guilt isn't even an issue in civil law. Only the tort, and who is responsible.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

Wake me when it's over...

As much as they try to politicize CTRL+C and CTRL+V and it's "controversy" it's not going away.

It's only going to become easier and easier to access information.
The best is yet to come...

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
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Re: Wake me when it's over...

said by Kamus:

It's only going to become easier and easier to access information.
The best is yet to come...

I wouldn't assume that. Both biz & gov have the strongest possible motivations to restrict information to themselves.

They also control nearly all the mechanisms to insure they choose what we're allowed to know/experience.

We can also add to that a voter base that will always choose style over substance.

The odds aren't remotely in our favor. Meaningful change will require uncomfortable changes.
--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
old_wiz_60

join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

Is anyone surprised?

The entertainment industry bribes Congress, so the "anti-piracy plan" is not written with a view of fairness and law.
dra6o0n

join:2011-08-15
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
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Re: Is anyone surprised?

It looks like a case of 'whistle blowing' for profits to me...
Except it's designed to automatically 'blame' the consumers for everything and scare ISP into staying quiet:

A whistleblower (whistle-blower or whistle blower)[1] is a person who tells the public or someone in authority about alleged dishonest or illegal activities (misconduct) occurring in a government department or private company or organization. The alleged misconduct may be classified in many ways; for example, a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public interest, such as fraud, health/safety violations, and corruption. Whistleblowers may make their allegations internally (for example, to other people within the accused organization) or externally (to regulators, law enforcement agencies, to the media or to groups concerned with the issues).

Oh wait, it's easier to see it as 'assume everyone who talks back to the policy is a whistleblower' and this includes the ISP.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Amerika

The best government money can buy... and buy... and buy

Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Canada

So...

What exactly is worth stealing anyways?
--
»libertarian.on.ca/

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
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Kelowna, BC
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Re: So...

Nothing. My BR, and music purchases are almost nil.

Crap. Just pure Crap.
--
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
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join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL

Re: So...

said by Juggernaut:

Nothing. My BR, and music purchases are almost nil.

Crap. Just pure Crap.

They're going to freakin remake Robo Cop for cripes sakes. No creativity or new stuff anymore, just respins of old stuff with new CG for you to oogle over.
--
TheGlobalMind.com / Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? / Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. - Ralph Waldo Emerson / Free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY
said by Markie:

What exactly is worth stealing anyways?

Most of the stuff being produced today, they should pay US for taking, it's garbage, and I find more than enough good stuff available for free. Other than the trampling of people's rights, the whole thing is a non-issue for me.
Sukunai
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The law, a matter of respect and logic

Considering most law seems to be about precedent and not about the actual case being tried, I rarely find myself giving a damn about the law.

If I am to be judged, then judge me. Don't hear the lawyers speak their piece, and then retreat to read how a judge (the word makes no sense if they are not genuinely 'judging') in another case likely barely similar if at all, arrived at a decision.

I have no respect for laws in a system where there is no judge making real judgement calls on the merits of the case before them as presented and nothing else.

Yes mistakes get made, life goes on for society all the same.
I might end up in court tomorrow. I might get run over on the way to court tomorrow and never live to make it to court tomorrow.
The courtroom might burn to the ground from a lightning strike in a fire overnight. The judge might vapour lock while screwing his wife and in the process make it so the case is delayed for a month.
And that would just mean there'd be a month worth of random potential to deal with eh.

I know the law changes from country to country. And I know the law in Canada is likely as full of shit as it is in the US. Our shit will smell different, but it will still smell bad.

But either way, if you plan to accuse me of a crime, you better have proof I committed the crime, our you can go *&%& yourself.

There better be some logic in your law, or I have no respect for it, and I will do what I would do with any other law that was assinine.
I won't care.