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Comments on news posted 2012-10-01 18:20:39: Copyright trolls are still trying to sue users for negligence if they leave their Wi-Fi hotspot open despite two recent court rulings shooting down such efforts. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Courts

I would like to know why the courts are shooting this down, yet if I have someone come over to my house and use my connection I can be sued or if someone in my home downloaded illegall, again, I can be sued.

So why is this any different? You are still providing the network to allow for this to happen. So it should not be any different. Especially since the Wifi Operator/person is NOT an ISP. If we're going to treat them as an ISP then that opens up a WHOLE new ball game.


ArrayList
DevOps
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Brighton, MA
what exactly makes one an ISP?


dib22

join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO

ummm

Defendant had a duty to secure his Internet connection.

When did that law pass

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to ArrayList

Re: Courts

If you use the common def. anyone that provides Internet Access. It does not state that you have to charge for the service or not. Juno was called an ISP and they gave the service away for free.

And that is my point. An ISP can NOT be sued for $$$ over a customer downloading content illegally. But a consumer can be. So why is the courts having double standards? If I go to your house and download something, that is copyrighted, yes you can get sued for it. But if your neighbor does it on an open router why should you not get sued? It's still works the same way. And this goes back to if you are in the car with someone and they go into the 7-11 kill the clerk, you and the shooter/your friend both get charged with murder. This is do different. knowing or not should not get you off the hook.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to dib22

Re: ummm

When did the defendant become an ISP?


Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium
join:2001-12-30
USA
kudos:1

Open WiFi

I allow an open WiFi connection at my business. The internet is used for viewing my security cameras and playing (legal) music.

Comcast is my internet provider and I provide access to Comcast for free to my customers. These copyright trolls should try to find another way of protecting their intellectual property.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to dib22

Re: ummm

said by dib22:

When did that law pass

I'm pondering that also.


vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: Courts

It's actually not clear at all that party A can be held liable for letting party B use their internet connection if party B uses it for something illegal. There has been some recent case law that it's not the case. In general, to be liable for something you have to have knowledge that it was happening (or at least, a reasonable person in your situation should have had knowledge of it).

Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

Copyright trolls...

What i really want to know is...
Do copyright trolls actually believe their own made up bullshit?

Either way, it doesn't matter, since regardless of the answer they'd still be douches.

Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: ummm

said by hottboiinnc:

When did the defendant become an ISP?

When did the ISP get a black shirt? (just following your logic here)

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to vpoko

Re: Courts

Actually no you do not have to know. Such as what I started with the 7-11 story. If the driver has no clue a murder is being done while waiting on friend, said driver can be charged and normally is for murder even though he was in the car. Courts have been doing that for YEARS and it works for the courts. That is my basis on this subject. Regardless if the HSI account holder knows or not, under US Law, they should charged/sued. it doesn't make sense for it to happen in one case and not another.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to Kamus

Re: ummm

The ISP has always been part of Safe Harbor. The same as Google. until that router owner becomes an ISP they should not be granted safe harbor.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to Kamus

Re: Copyright trolls...

Probably not... they only care if they can get a judge to believe their made up bullshit. Thankfully, the judges haven't.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to Lone Wolf

Re: Open WiFi

And by doing so you open yourself to a lawsuit. Regardless if you agree with it or not, you are not exempt from these lawsuits. you just admitted you opened your self up to them. What would you do if you had X person off the street come in and download child porn or commit another crime on your HSI account. Do you think the cops are going to forgive you for giving your customers access to the 'net? HELL NO! they're going to come after you! You should secure it and use a guest account for your customers.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to CXM_Splicer

Re: Copyright trolls...

A judge will if something more horrible happens on an open router. then these judges and their opnions will be shot out the door.


PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD
reply to dib22

Re: ummm

said by dib22:

Defendant had a duty to secure his Internet connection.

When did that law pass

Got me beat. If such is the case, almost every public library on the face of the continental United States is royally Frakked.

Trencher

join:2007-02-12
Etobicoke, ON
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: Courts

So if were at a shooting range and I loan you my gun to shoot at the range and you accidentally shoot someone, will I get charged for letting you use that gun? Most likely not.... So it kinda goes against your original analogy.


tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Lone Wolf

Re: Open WiFi

Do you purchase access through ComCast as a commercial (for resale) account?
If so you would be protected, if not, and you knowing permit others to use the access for compensation (doesn't have to be cash, any value, including happy customers, is of value to you) ComCast may choose to cut you off, or sue (ToS issues) and if you KNOWINGLY* allow your connection to be used illegally you are certainly at risk.

* Knowingly would again come down to what would a reasonable and prudent person do/assume.
And if you offer the service and allow illegal use, the potential for "rendering criminal assistance" and "conspiracy" charges.

If you legal resell ComCast service then the onus is on you for ISP record keeping and timely passing on of warnings and 6 strike notices. At the very least you are looking at some legal and record keeping expenses.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to Trencher

Re: Courts

Not the same as the others.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: Copyright trolls...

Doubtful... there is nothing wrong with having an open router.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

It IS negligence

If I leave my car door unlocked and the keys in the car it doesn't mean someone has the right to steal my car, but it doesn't mean I wasn't NEGLIGENT.

neg·li·gent/negljnt/

Adjective:
Failing to take proper care in doing something


meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Using THIS impecable logic

Every time someone uses a pay phone (yes there are still some around) to commit a crime such as extortion, or bomb threats, the CEO of the company that owns the phone should be immediately arrested and charged as a co-conspirator. Somehow, I don't think we'll see THAT fly either.


ArrayList
DevOps
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Brighton, MA
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: Courts

If I let someone else use my internet connection, I am by your definition, an ISP.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: ummm

But you just said that ANYONE can be an ISP... even if they give it away for free. Have you looked at the definition of ISP under federal law?


Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium
join:2001-12-30
USA
kudos:1
reply to hottboiinnc

Re: Open WiFi

said by hottboiinnc:

And by doing so you open yourself to a lawsuit.

I just read an article posted by Karl that said the court threw out cases about this.

Check out »Copyright Trolls Still Arguing Open Hotspots are Negligence


Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium
join:2001-12-30
USA
kudos:1
reply to tshirt
said by tshirt:

Do you purchase access through ComCast as a commercial (for resale) account?

Odd that Comcast knows that I've been using an open router for 8 years and doesn't care, eh?

Comcast is so worried that I'll switch to FIOS when it comes to my area they don't care what I do, as long as I stay below the invisible caps.
--
Vote the Ins Out.
One term for all politicians.
Give the government back to the people.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to tshirt
Most business TOSs are different than their consumer counterparts. Since there is already a business relationship, it would usually not violate the TOS to let his customers use his Internet connection while on his premises. Being 'compensated' with happy customers... hahaha that is REALLY stretching it!! So if you have your friend over to your house and you let him do a Google search on your hard-wired computer, you are 'reselling' Internet? Posting false scare-tactic posts should also be punishable by conspiracy charges


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
reply to Lone Wolf
Even so, why would you take any chances? Secure your wifi


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to CXM_Splicer
Obviously his wifi is not restricted to the boundaries of his 4 walls. I think N routers reach over 1000' feet ! He SHOULD lock up his wifi. Someone needs to invent a system for businesses that cash register receipts print out wifi access codes, kind of like how secureId works.


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to meeeeeeeeee

Re: Using THIS impecable logic

An utterly ridiculous analogy. Do you want some child molester to be using your connection to download child-porn? Do you want to be served in the mail with a copyright lawsuit? and have to deal with all that BS?

If not, lock your shit up, end of story.