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Comments on news posted 2012-10-09 15:45:12: You'll recall that a few years ago it was leaked that the government and phone companies were working hand in hand on a warrantless domestic surveillance system that had little to no oversight, with AT&T employees revealing (pdf) all phone and data b.. ..

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MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
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reply to KrK

Re: Big stink about nothing...

a) lawsuits are being quashed exactly because trying the accusation in a public court would reveal methods, means, and information. Absolutely nothing new here. There have always been state secrets and sovereign immunity ever since the USA was founded.

b) "wholesale monitoring of americans" is the accusation hurled with no proof whatsoever.

c) the retroactive immunity is about civil suits to punish companies that they *assume* without any basis have participated in the alleged "wholesale monitoring of americans".

d) nothing has been "exposed". All that happened was some guy noticed some network connections. That doesn't mean that any illegal actions were taking place.

Like I said -- the nature of the beast is that these things *are* secret. They can't not be secret, or it defeats the purpose. That is why trust is required, not trust in an individual but trust in the system of checks and balances set up in the Constitution. or you have to go to some very radical places.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
I think you are being naive.

If you are interested you should look into it. B, C, and D are all inaccurate.

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
I think I have looked into it. I've read the files on the EFF site.

Mark Klein says, there were splitters on the AT&T optical links that connected to a secret NSA room.

Cindy Cohn says, I'm an EFF lawyer and we want to depose AT&T, Quest, and NSA officials to learn exactly what data they are collecting and how they are using it.

Kurt Opsahl says, I'm a lawyer and here are 107 (literally) exhibits of public documents, letters, etc. The exhibits don't seem to be on the website.

The Summary of Evidence file really gets at the heart of the matter. What's going on here is a discussion of how data is searched, what data is kept, and what data is "minimized". IMO it's pretty much a technical question of design of a system that does its job, but also operates under FISA guidelines. You can't search for terrorism related communications without searching communications. Terrorism related communications don't have a tag on them that says "Collect me! This one is about terrorism!" Obviously the respondents to the questions from Congress, reporters, etc. can't reveal details openly about how this all really works.

And, clearly, over time there were disagreements about whether the methods used were strictly following FISA. And, most importantly, these were resolved with some changes in how things were done, in cooperation between the Judicial, Executive, and Legislative branches. As it should be.

If you come at it from the POV of (a) "It's illegal to even collect, then discard, information about communications in the USA" and (b) "I don't trust those bastards and I *know* in my heart they are doing things outside of FISA with malice in their hearts", then you end up where EFF is, basically using whatever legal tools they have to try to go on a fishing expedition and get a court to depose the principals under oath, so they can ask them whether they did these bad things that they just *know* they did. And, to punish with civil suits those companies that they just *know* are evil collaborators in this demonic scheme.

The Frances Fleish file asserts sovereign immunity and lays out in quite detailed fashion exactly why the fishing expedition cannot happen, and why the agency cannot confirm or deny publicly that any particular individual or group was or was not under surveillance.

I could go on, but you get the idea. There is nothing that I have not "looked into" that doesn't support what I've been saying.


skeechan
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reply to KrK
Uh, the behavior had already stopped a long time ago. For years they have had to operate under new clarified FISA rules.

The lawsuits are all about the money, always have been...money from the suits, and money from them using this to solicit donations. Neither the EFF or ACLU is actually interested in protecting anyone's rights, rather just lining their pockets.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Um, no the behavior has most certainly NOT stopped.

It's been EXPANDED.

It has nothing to do with money, never has, never will.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


skeechan
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1 edit
No, the behavior of them going on and on warrantless stopped a long time ago. The law was clarified.

It's ALWAYS about the money and always will be. Trust and believe no one.

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
reply to KrK
said by KrK:

Um, no the behavior has most certainly NOT stopped.

It's been EXPANDED.

It has nothing to do with money, never has, never will.

I agree with you and disagree with the other guy on the money point. I see nothing that would indicate this is some lawyer/plaintiff money making scheme.

Please explain what was expanded. I don't see any evidence of that.