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Comments on news posted 2012-10-09 15:45:12: You'll recall that a few years ago it was leaked that the government and phone companies were working hand in hand on a warrantless domestic surveillance system that had little to no oversight, with AT&T employees revealing (pdf) all phone and data b.. ..

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slckusr
Premium Member
join:2003-03-17
Greenville, SC

slckusr to Noah Vail

Premium Member

to Noah Vail

Re: November is coming

said by Noah Vail:

said by slckusr:

said by ArrayList:

i have no idea where that question is supposed to lead anything.

Hes implying one candidate will spy on us more than the other, however i fail to see that changing, with homeland security in one ear, the cia/fbi/nsa in the other, surveillance is a way of life. ( that we all have allowed to happen) Im sure the president is the one who legislated the installation of traffic cameras, and random cameras around my city.

I have to add:
The Media+Press are perhaps the most responsible.
They've either remained silent or colluded with Gov to insure there's been no meaningful coverage.

Of course the media has remained silent, we read stories almost everyday on this very website of some insider executive being promoted or hired to government positions, or appointed as advisors to government oversight committees etc..... We the people have become to worried about iPhone and Beiber to care about whats happening around us.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5

Re: Not ME!! YOU!!

Yet amazingly they continue to transgress on certain desires and then are stunned when it comes out.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926 to Noah Vail

Member

to Noah Vail

Re: It's a sad day for America

You know who was a US citizen? Timothy McVeigh. So I'll edit my original statement, too bad this program wasnt in effect in 1994 !

Please tell me how the United States' wiretapping has infringed upon YOUR life. Please list all the ways...

hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4 to slckusr

Member

to slckusr

Re: November is coming

No you can thank the State of Ohio for that one and the City of Toledo for believing RedFlex. After all, they spend roughly $1mill per camera when you factor in maintenance, admin costs, etc all. And how much does one camera make? Good question, it will NEVER be known since Toledo does NOT disclose how much they make after they pay out.

And those random crime cameras were put in for safety since Bell is busy buying SUVs for his broke city.

But what is funny is the city now has to PAY for electric hook up on those cameras, Before they were making First Energy provide it for free.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

False narrative

The narrative that this is immunity from "breaking the law" is false. The immunity granted was for civil suits, not criminal prosecutions. The bill specifically did NOT grant any immunity for criminal actions, i.e. breaking the law. Try reading it and you'll see.

The reason this immunity was granted by Congress and signed by the President was exactly because the tactic of the ACLU and EFF is to hammer those companies they consider "lawbreakers" with civil suit after civil suit. Death by 1000 lawyers is their strategy, even though they have succeeded with precisely zero of those suits.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that filing civil suits, even though they must know at some level they will not succeed, is their strategy. They intend to intimidate and harass these companies into not cooperating with legal requests from the government, causing them to spend significant resources defending themselves.

Given that, it makes a lot of sense for Congress and the President to pass this immunity law. Government, in general, cannot run counterterrorism plans if they are open to lawsuits. And, since you can't sue the Government over this sort of thing, and since the companies they depend on to help them can, they have to put those companies under this umbrella too.

The other part of the EFF/ACLU's strategy is to spin hyperbolic positions on the Internet, and bluster their way forward, in hopes of putting public pressure on these companies among the gullible and the conspiracy-theory minded. There's really nothing that should be done about, it's free speech, and one can only hope that people are smart enough critical thinkers to see through all that.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to KrK

Premium Member

to KrK

Re: It's a sad day for America

said by KrK:

The rule of law is not dead.... it's getting more rigid and controlling by the day.

What's dying is the idea of freedom and individual liberty.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
Nah.

Subsistence, fear, and the serving of corporate interests.
It's the new mantra.

nonamesleft
join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

nonamesleft to Noah Vail

Member

to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail:

said by ITALIAN926:

You know when else was a sad day? 9-11-2001

Yea, but today was the day the terrorists won.

Nevermind.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

to MaynardKrebs
Yes... like the idea that's what's good for Corporation's profits is our new National Security interests.
KrK

1 recommendation

KrK to MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

to MyDogHsFleas

Re: False narrative

Well, you're absolutely right, it's for civil cases... but that effectively is total immunity. I've made this point before....

... The only tool a citizen or groups like the EFF or ACLU have *are* civil lawsuits. Why?

... because for a criminal complaint, it's up to the *Government* to begin the legal procedure, filing charges, and bringing a case against the defendant. A citizen cannot create a criminal prosecution, all they can do if file a complaint and *hope* the Government acts on their complaint with a investigation and then bringing charges and arrests and a trial....
.... and here's the rub. When the CRIME is on the behest of the Government, with their full backing and support, you honestly think that they will turn around and charge their partners in crime, and thereby curtail their own operation. NO. Not a chance....

So by granting immunity from civil suits, that ends any method any citizen has for rule of law or justice. There is no valid legal recourse now to curtail the behavior.

The only option that citizens would have at this point is to vote out the entire Government and replace it with individuals who WOULD go after the criminals..... which brings us to the two party system where both parties are in bed with the criminals.

Great. So, what's left? When there are no legal means of recourse left, all that's left to correct injustice is the illegal methods.... you know.... insurrection, rioting, violence, popular uprisings and revolution.... you know... all that stuff that would get a citizen declared a .... terrorist. (and summarily executed, these days.)

... which brings us back to the reason they need to make sure they monitor the citizens 24/7.... to make sure they stop said terrorists.

Great, eh?

No good will come of this.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit

meeeeeeeeee

Member

The Constitution of the United States of Amerika

Clearly states that the government can make up or change the rules as they go along and can make any rules that they make up or change retroactive to any point in time. Unfortunately, you, the average citizen have no way of knowing this because although it is used to rule your lives, it has been classified a "secret" document, so YOU are not allowed to see it. It really wouldn't matter if you could see it, as it changes daily as needs arise anyway.

I miss America...
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow

Premium Member

The only way to fix this

Vote Independant, vote out the republicans and democrats!. why do people still vote for them? they need to be taught they are accountable to the voters!.
29393955 (banned)
Always the green wire
join:2011-09-11
Mount Juliet, TN

29393955 (banned) to KrK

Member

to KrK

Re: False narrative

KrK, I don't always agree with your views, but I had to take the time to say That's The Most Brilliant Summary Of This Whole Issue - and The America We Live In Today - That I Have Ever Read!

Thank you for stating so eloquently what SHOULD be front page news and shouted from every mountaintop, so just maybe Americans would wake up and see reality! (But of course that won't happen, because the media has made 'pop culture' the news of the day, and important issues are "swept away")
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas to KrK

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to KrK
so you've pre-decided that the government doing counterterrorism activities against clear threats (cf. the multiple successful in-country terror attacks including and since 9/11) is already illegal? Even though such activities have been done throughout the history of the USA when there was a domestic threat? Why? Because it's now the magical Internet rather than phone calls, telegrams, etc.?

in the face of exactly zero successful lawsuits? And the backing of the duly elected Congress and President across multiple seatings of Congress and multiple elected Presidents? And the obvious non-support of the general public for your issues?

Not to mention the fact that there is no demonstrable harm. Even the ACLU/EFF can't find a plaintiff who can show they were harmed, so they are left with vague Constitutional complaints all of which have been rejected all the way up to the Supreme Court (see today's news). They are left with only "death by 1000 lawyers".

So you really think that the Government establishing an alternate system (the FISA court) with real judges and a real process, albeit in secret, for adjudicating warrants for counterterrorism purposes is worth violent revolution?

I just can't reconcile your position with reality.
Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT

Rekrul to MyDogHsFleas

Member

to MyDogHsFleas
said by MyDogHsFleas:

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that filing civil suits, even though they must know at some level they will not succeed, is their strategy. They intend to intimidate and harass these companies into not cooperating with legal requests from the government, causing them to spend significant resources defending themselves.

The requests weren't legal. That's the point!

The government got caught doing something illegal, and then passed a law retroactively making it legal.

It's like the NSA going to your bank and telling them to hand over everyone's money, which is stealing, and then the government passes a law saying that they're allowed to do this.
Rekrul

Rekrul to MyDogHsFleas

Member

to MyDogHsFleas
said by MyDogHsFleas:

Not to mention the fact that there is no demonstrable harm. Even the ACLU/EFF can't find a plaintiff who can show they were harmed, so they are left with vague Constitutional complaints all of which have been rejected all the way up to the Supreme Court (see today's news).

So as long as I don't cause you any actual "harm", you would be perfectly fine with me reading all of your email and listening to all your phone calls? How about your conversations with your wife/girlfirend/husband/boyfriend? Can I listen to those as well? How about putting cameras in your home so that I can watch you 24/7, would that be OK? After all, if you're not doing anything illegal, there's no harm to you, right?

So, what's your address, and what's the best time for me to come over and install the surveillance gear?
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

You are not a government approved counterterrorism effort, approved by a FISA court. Invalid analogy.
MyDogHsFleas

MyDogHsFleas to Rekrul

Premium Member

to Rekrul
Um, no, Rekrul. You completely missed everything I said.

It is your opinion that the FISA court system to approve warrants for counterterrorism, enacted by the Legislative branch, signed and put into action by the Executive branch, and found Constitutional by the Judicial branch, should be illegal.

However, since it was passed, signed, and found to be Constitutional, it is by definition legal. So it is completely invalid for you to say it is illegal.

Furthermore, you missed where I said that the immunity portion of the legislation has nothing to do with illegal acts, in fact it specifically exempts companies from immunity for illegal acts. It has only to do with immunity from civil suits against those companies for complying with legal requests from the government. Again, legal by definition.

Look, it's fine for you to have opinions, but don't pretend something is something it isn't. Don't fall for the false narrative. Work with reality.

Twaddle
@sbcglobal.net

Twaddle to Skippy25

Anon

to Skippy25

Re: November is coming

I remember as a young person, I voted straight party line Democrat. As I grew older and had more skin in the game my support of Democrat agenda items fell by the wayside and I started voting on issues. Every 4 years I have to make a painful decision on who to vote for as President. Sadly ,even voting by issue has not worked but at least I voted!
Twaddle

Twaddle to iknow

Anon

to iknow

Re: The only way to fix this

You really think that an independent has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected or is it just wishful thinking? I personally think that if an Independent candidate ever got close to being elected, they would have an unfortunate accident or their life history would be altered to discredit them. Those rich powerful guys aren't going to allow the rules of the game to change in favor of the unwashed masses. We saw how easily voting results were massaged in past elections!

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew to MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

to MyDogHsFleas

Re: False narrative

said by MyDogHsFleas:

Don't fall for the false narrative. Work with reality.

You should heed your own words, for whatever that's worth.

The reality is that what they did was illegal and is now no longer illegal because of the legislation they enacted.

The whole system from top to bottom is corrupt.

I'm not a giant privacy advocate like a lot of folks, but even I can see the absurdity of what happened.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to ITALIAN926

Member

to ITALIAN926

Re: It's a sad day for America

You can name probably 10 things in history that have happened that may or may not have been stopped by this. I assure you McVeigh wont be the last citizen terrorist, even with this blanket of security you think you are covered by.

The only way I have to list is that it has infringed on MY life by passing all of my communications through AT&T and then to the US government with no oversight and no accountability in any form. Just as it has done to millions of others.

You are a "terrorist" of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. How do we defend ourselves against someone like you?

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

all of your communication? Please share details? How has your life been altered since this began?

If this program could have been in effect in 2000, and it would have STOPPED the attack, would you have implemented it? Or would you let 2001 happen in order to preserve our outdated constitution?

If this program actually has STOPPED a nuclear attack, do you think this information would have been released to the public? HELL NO. As far as Im concerned, such an attack could have been prevented, or it CAN be prevented in the future. There are people out there that burn our flag and would defecate on the Bill of Rights given the opportunity. I have nothing to hide, I have not a single thing to worry about if big brother is monitoring my life.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Yes, ALL of my communications and ALL of my internet data passes freely to the US government thanks to this with no oversight or accountability. Regardless of the effects, it is still a violation of my rights. So by your logic, they can also go to my house/car, your house/car or every house/car in the US while we are not present, search it and and bug it while leaving no evidence of their presence and that would be OK with you being that we would never know and thus have our lives altered by it. Does that sound about right?

So really your measurement of fair, right and according to the Constitution and Bill of Rights is whether or not it directly effects us or if we know it is happening compared to the potential life savings. That is the stupidest and most asinine thing I have ever heard. As long as it stops a "nuclear bomb" or some van with C4, to hell with the constitution and our rights!

Regardless your assumption is that it would have been stopped. You do not know that and the 9/11 incident could have been stopped based on the current knowledge they already had with their then current system. No matter what, you assume that having this in place then would have stopped it. I assume it would not have, who is right?

Regardless, as it has been pointed out before you may want to give up the keys to the castle to feel safe, but you do not speak for me and you do not speak for the majority. You are that paranoid freak cousin that everyone makes fun of at the family reunion. Accept that and move on.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

OK, I withdraw all my messages. The government DOESNT want to prevent terrorism, they want to eavesdrop on YOUR communications. Im convinced.

Happy now?

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail to ITALIAN926

Premium Member

to ITALIAN926
said by ITALIAN926:

How has your life been altered since this began?

That's not how inherent rights work. I NEVER have to justify a reason for liberty, it's mine by default.
said by ITALIAN926:

If this program could have been in effect in 2000, and it would have STOPPED the attack, would you have implemented it?

You want to debate a premise that you just pulled out of your hat? Really?
said by ITALIAN926:

Or would you let 2001 happen in order to preserve our outdated constitution?

My Constitution isn't outdated.
said by ITALIAN926:

If this program actually has STOPPED a nuclear attack...

The substantive threat we've faced for a nuclear detonation was from the Soviet Union.
said by ITALIAN926:

There are people out there that burn our flag and would defecate on the Bill of Rights given the opportunity.

Yea. That isn't a worthwhile reason to forfeit my rights either.
said by ITALIAN926:

I have nothing to hide

Great. Prove it by keeping a public webcam in your bedroom and bathroom for the rest of your life.

Or do you have something to hide?

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

skeechan

Premium Member

Big stink about nothing...

No one was harmed and if civil suits were allowed to progress the only beneficiaries are the bloodsucking ambulance chasers.

For everyone else, they'd just see a bloodsucking vampire lawyer cost recovery fee on their next bill. Yay, everyone wins!

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

to MyDogHsFleas

Re: False narrative

I'm sorry but monitoring all the phone conversations and data traffic in the USA is not "Activities against clear threats."

Wiretaps on suspects, linked to terrorism? Understandable.

Mass monitoring every person in the USA? No way... and it was illegal! That's why they had to grant the immunity!
KrK

KrK to skeechan

Premium Member

to skeechan

Re: Big stink about nothing...

The Point of the EFF/ACLU lawsuits wasn't to win a financial judgement. The lawsuits are used as a force the documents to be revealed in a court of law. (And thereby, the public record.)

They are a tool for exposing wrongdoing and who/what/when is involved.

Without the ability to file the lawsuits, said information can remain secret and hidden indefinitely. Illegal behavior and abuse remains hidden. There would never be any justice or even a check and balance to prevent the abuse.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

skeechan

Premium Member

Bull on them, everyone knows what AT&T did, that is no secret. The whistleblower told everyone what they needed to know.

This lawsuit was all about the money, it's always about the money, particularly with the EFF and ACLU. The EFF has a bug up their ass for telcos and MSOs and the ACLU hates everyone who isn't a child molester or terrorist.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas to KrK

Premium Member

to KrK

Re: False narrative

no response to my logical analysis of what is "illegal", just simple repeating the assertion "It is illegal!"

Not possible to discuss something with someone who won't even acknowledge the other person's points, but just continues to assert their POV with no substantiation.

also no response to my pointing out that the immunity section of the law specifically does NOT grant immunity for illegal actions.

Reminds me of the scene in "Spinal Tap" where the band member dismisses the reasoned logical argument of the documentary maker about the loudness setting on his amps by simply saying:

"These go to 11!"

I guess we just cut to the next scene and leave it there. Denial is one way to deal with cognitive dissonance, I guess.
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