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Comments on news posted 2012-10-12 10:06:05: Speaking at the CTIA MobileCon tradeshow this week, Verizon Wireless noted that they're ahead of schedule with their LTE deployment, but also informed attendees that they plan to have their 2G and 3G networks shuttered entirely by 2021. ..

page: 1 · 2 · next

tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

sooner

all carriers are pushing LTE as the radio of choice for voice & data.. phase out could be much sooner than 2021.. perhaps 5 years.. so, handset makers should price their equipment accordingly.. as in across the board price drops for all 2g/3g handsets by 20% a year.. discontinue after 5 years. some equipment can be left in place longer than 5 years if necessary to fulfill contract obligations the way carriers did with analog systems-- but that's it.. I doubt 2g/3g contract obligations extend to 2021..


zippoboy7

join:2006-06-18
USA

4G network is crap

Unless Verizon figures out how to make there 4G network penetrate large energy efficient buildings there 4G network will continue to be crap. Where I work I can stand outside the building and get a full 4G signal, inside the building I get 1-2 bars of 3G and 1 bar of 4G if I stand in 1 corner near the windows. I have called and bitched about it but it just fails to get through to them that there network sucks. The only answer from the highest manager they would let me speak to was to spend about $1 million to put in repeaters on every floor of the building (32 floors), that kind of answer is just not acceptable.



norbert26
Premium
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI

on the customer side

Using myself as an example i have three lines to deal with:
Line 1: iPhone 4 i planned on upgrading it anyways was thinking of iPhone 4s VS iPhone 5 but now it must be 5 OR Android.
Line 2: Old Samsung Alias dumb phone will need updating to something comparable with a full Querty Keyboard and LTE radio.
Line 3: Verizon Home connect cell base station you plug traditional land line phones into. It uses CDMA an updated box will be needed with VoLTE support.

In the case of line 2 and 3 i expect deals on swap outs especially for 3 as that's not my fault or choice . Line 2 should not be too bad or give a free dumb phone comparable with a two year. Figure at least 6 years AFTER 2014 testing allowing 3 contract cycles to swap out / keep up supplies on handsets.



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

said by norbert26:

Using myself as an example i have three lines to deal with:
Line 1: iPhone 4 i planned on upgrading it anyways was thinking of iPhone 4s VS iPhone 5 but now it must be 5 OR Android.

Why? Plan on using that 4s beyond 2020?

Line 2: Old Samsung Alias dumb phone will need updating to something comparable with a full Querty Keyboard and LTE radio.

By 2021 there won't be any dumbphones being sold.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

Spectrum Crunch

So if there is a spectrum crunch, then why the 9 year cycle to refarm old spectrum--because obviously there is none.

And voice runs over juicy 850Mhz and 1900 which can be easily used for 4G. If VoLTE comes in 2014, then another 7 years to shut down old networks?

Oh what a leisurely pace for such impending disaster.



AdamB

join:2001-01-07
Columbus, OH

Too long

Both should be gone by 2015 or 2016 at the latest.



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to elefante72

Re: Spectrum Crunch

said by elefante72:

So if there is a spectrum crunch, then why the 9 year cycle to refarm old spectrum--because obviously there is none.

Do you prepare for a hurricane before hurricane season when there isn't even a hint of a threat or wait until 24 hours before landfall?

Also they said BY 2021. That's in 8 years 2 1/2 months not 9 years. If I say if something is going to happen by BY a certain data that doesn't mean it can't happen before then.

They can't end 2G and 3G today because they don't even have VoLTE ready yet. even when that is ready it will take time to refarm the spectrum. And even if they could do that in 2014 too many luddites would complain that their 2G and 3G devices no longer work and you know this.

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to zippoboy7

Re: 4G network is crap

said by zippoboy7:

Unless Verizon figures out how to make there 4G network penetrate large energy efficient buildings there 4G network will continue to be crap. Where I work I can stand outside the building and get a full 4G signal, inside the building I get 1-2 bars of 3G and 1 bar of 4G if I stand in 1 corner near the windows. I have called and bitched about it but it just fails to get through to them that there network sucks. The only answer from the highest manager they would let me speak to was to spend about $1 million to put in repeaters on every floor of the building (32 floors), that kind of answer is just not acceptable.

They have, as you suggested, in building repeaters. We're already starting to explore replacing our 3G repeaters with 4G systems.

They never promise you a good signal indoors...

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

3G Datacard

Well ... at least I know how much longer I can keep my unlimited 3G data card!



dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to elefante72

Re: Spectrum Crunch

said by elefante72:

So if there is a spectrum crunch, then why the 9 year cycle to refarm old spectrum--because obviously there is none.

And voice runs over juicy 850Mhz and 1900 which can be easily used for 4G. If VoLTE comes in 2014, then another 7 years to shut down old networks?

Oh what a leisurely pace for such impending disaster.

Nothing leisurely about it. The problem isn't so much handsets, but embedded devices. Lots of work there.

As for the 'juicy' 850mhz band - you know that VZW is using even 'juicier' 700mhz frequencies for LTE, right?


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to AdamB

Re: Too long

said by AdamB:

Both should be gone by 2015 or 2016 at the latest.

Should be but the luddites will complain.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to dennismurphy

Re: Spectrum Crunch

said by dennismurphy:

said by elefante72:

So if there is a spectrum crunch, then why the 9 year cycle to refarm old spectrum--because obviously there is none.

And voice runs over juicy 850Mhz and 1900 which can be easily used for 4G. If VoLTE comes in 2014, then another 7 years to shut down old networks?

Oh what a leisurely pace for such impending disaster.

Nothing leisurely about it. The problem isn't so much handsets, but embedded devices. Lots of work there.

As for the 'juicy' 850mhz band - you know that VZW is using even 'juicier' 700mhz frequencies for LTE, right?

Yep in fact 1900 MHz will actually suck for 4G. And people will complain about that.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
reply to 88615298

Actually yes. I grew up in Miami and the people who prepared had the least amount of damage. Guess what when 24 hours out just try to get plywood.

My point is if there is an impending doomsday, you would assume that low frequency spectrum which they already "lease" would be top of mind to refarm.

As to sunsetting devices, oh well. They could easily push them off to MVNO with a reseller agreement.

If you look at handset composition, all smartphones are 4G today and VoLTE capable. Verizon (look at their new plans) by pricing has already pushed flip phones out the door. Do you think that Froyo 2.2 is going to fly in 2020?

It's not like the old days when I had my StarTac for 4 years, handset cycles are way more aggressive these days.



LightS
Premium
join:2005-12-17
Greenville, TX
reply to zippoboy7

Re: 4G network is crap

It's not just Verizon, it's all of them. They all have the issues indoors; this is why repeaters exist.

Also, I think a repeater on every floor is a little overkill if you ask me. lol



norbert26
Premium
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI
reply to 88615298

Re: on the customer side

said by 88615298:

said by norbert26:

Using myself as an example i have three lines to deal with:
Line 1: iPhone 4 i planned on upgrading it anyways was thinking of iPhone 4s VS iPhone 5 but now it must be 5 OR Android.

Why? Plan on using that 4s beyond 2020?

Line 2: Old Samsung Alias dumb phone will need updating to something comparable with a full Querty Keyboard and LTE radio.

By 2021 there won't be any dumbphones being sold.

Valid points but i refuse to buy a 4s that i KNOW is obsolete right out of the box. As far as there will be no more dumb phones not everyone wants a smart phone. Theres a few that just want a simple dumb phone like the elderly that can't handle these touch screens. They should leave a choice.


MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1
reply to elefante72

Re: Spectrum Crunch

It's common sense, it takes a long time to get customers off older 2G and 3G technology, and if your too forceful, you risk losing customers, and once they all off it takes time to reconfigure the network to use the new frequency, get handsets that use the new frequency etc.

People like me may buy a new phone every year, and people with smartphones may upgrade every two. But for people who just have old dumbphones they hardly ever upgrade unless the phone breaks. I mother has an old 2G AT&T phone that I'm still trying to get her to upgrade she's had it for 6 years or more.


AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL
reply to tmc8080

Re: sooner

It's not just handsets (phones) that use the cellular network.



Boricua
Premium
join:2002-01-26
Sacramuerto
reply to norbert26

Re: on the customer side

said by norbert26:

said by 88615298:

said by norbert26:

Using myself as an example i have three lines to deal with:
Line 1: iPhone 4 i planned on upgrading it anyways was thinking of iPhone 4s VS iPhone 5 but now it must be 5 OR Android.

Why? Plan on using that 4s beyond 2020?

Line 2: Old Samsung Alias dumb phone will need updating to something comparable with a full Querty Keyboard and LTE radio.

By 2021 there won't be any dumbphones being sold.

Valid points but i refuse to buy a 4s that i KNOW is obsolete right out of the box. As far as there will be no more dumb phones not everyone wants a smart phone. Theres a few that just want a simple dumb phone like the elderly that can't handle these touch screens. They should leave a choice.

And there lies in the crux of the problem. When I added my mom to my plan, all she wanted was a cell phone without all that fancy schmancy stuff. Now (or at that time they shutdown 3G) she will have to switch to one of them smartphones she will NOT have any use for besides adding costs. Emphasis on adding as that is what the providers want is pretty much more $$$ .
--
Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. Robert Orben


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to norbert26

said by norbert26:

Valid points but i refuse to buy a 4s that i KNOW is obsolete right out of the box.

If iphone 4s does what you want or need it to do then it's not obsolete.

As far as there will be no more dumb phones not everyone wants a smart phone. Theres a few that just want a simple dumb phone like the elderly that can't handle these touch screens. They should leave a choice.

Not everyone wants an flat screen HDTV but good luck finding a old SD CRT being made still.

Go take a look at Verizon's offerings for basic phones. They have a total of 10, that's it, TEN. Go back 6 years how many did they have? Dozens? Maybe over 100? So what makes you think in another 6 years dumbphones will still be around? There isn't any money in dumbphones an if manufacturers don't want to make them anymore they aren't going to. And as you said they said they will obsolete in a few years so why bother? People still using dumb phone are the kind that typically hold onto a phone for years. So really no point in even making these things much longer. Unless you are suggesting they will make a 4G dumbphone. I'm really dubious of that.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to elefante72

Re: Spectrum Crunch

said by elefante72:

Actually yes. I grew up in Miami and the people who prepared had the least amount of damage. Guess what when 24 hours out just try to get plywood.

So you prove my point. It's better to be safe than sorry.

My point is if there is an impending doomsday, you would assume that low frequency spectrum which they already "lease" would be top of mind to refarm.

Verizon JUST RECENTLY got approved to buy that spectrum from cable companies. Back when they were originally talking about spectrum crisis they didn't have permission, hell they hadn't even approached them about buying that spectrum yet. So now they have this spectrum and it pushes back any issues a few years. And somehow people want to bash Verizon for this? They took action to avoid a crisis that didn't involve kicking luddites to the curb or taking OTA spectrum from broadcasters and Verizon is bad guy for doing that?


IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

They'll have to release a 4G dumb phone.

Some people just do not want smartphones like my mother (age 56) and my grandmother (age 80). They just want basic no-frills phones. They currently have the Samsung Convoy II on my ShareEverything plan. It was cheaper to add them to my plan than to buy a separate account for them.
--
I wish I still lived in Iowa; Everything there from rent and groceries to Cable TV is much cheaper in Iowa (especially with an overbuilder in town).



Jon Geb
Wal-Mart Sucks

join:2001-01-09
Howell, MI
reply to AdamB

Re: Too long

I agree, its a waste of spectrum. 2015 might be too soon, but 2017 gives everyone 5 years. Verizon could just discontinue all phones that lack a LTE radio and in 5 years there won't be any left in the field.


slckusr
Premium
join:2003-03-17
Greenville, SC
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to IowaCowboy

Re: They'll have to release a 4G dumb phone.

said by IowaCowboy:

Some people just do not want smartphones like my mother (age 56) and my grandmother (age 80). They just want basic no-frills phones. They currently have the Samsung Convoy II on my ShareEverything plan. It was cheaper to add them to my plan than to buy a separate account for them.

I dont see why they wouldnt continue to release feature phones using their 4g network. Maybe not as many but the desire for those phone still exist.

Once my parents generation has kicked it (currently 55ish) though i see the demand falling sharply, Hell in another 15-20 years communication might of evolved past these smartphones anyway.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1

Shouldnt 2G be dead already?

I mean isnt 3G already pretty darn old as a technology? Based on the Wiki which well okay I know its the wiki but I am guessing this data is pretty accurate shows that the first 1x network was brought online in the US around 2002. so ten years old as a tech, And people are worried about old hardware by the 2020s? by 2021 there should be no 2g stuff even functional.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to 88615298

Re: on the customer side

I love my 16:9 CRT HDTV.


elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
reply to dennismurphy

Re: Spectrum Crunch

Yes I do. 850Mhz has excellent building penetration also. Better than AWS or Clear bands.

As for embedded devices and GSA schedule the sunset schedule is 5 years after EOL and of course operating contracts.

This also doesn't preclude them subcontracting spectrum on another carrier during the transition or lease them out, or use only the PCS band.

The point I am trying to get across is that if they really had their back up against a wall they could be creative.

THERE IS NOT SPECTRUM EXHAUSTION PEOPLE.



zoom314

join:2005-11-21
Yermo, CA
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
·Time Warner Cable
reply to LightS

Re: 4G network is crap

said by LightS:

It's not just Verizon, it's all of them. They all have the issues indoors; this is why repeaters exist.

Also, I think a repeater on every floor is a little overkill if you ask me. lol

Lets see concrete steel reinforced floors with corrugated steel support under the concrete floor, with steel I beams almost everywhere for good measure, repeaters in skyscrapers on every floor sounds about right, I know this as I watched how the floors on one were built when I worked at a skyscraper in downtown Los Angeles as a security guard at one time...

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to zippoboy7

how do repeaters work? are they just linked to fiber coming into the office buildings or do they typically go to a microwave dish on the roof?
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


big_e

join:2011-03-05

OnStar, smartmeters and other commercial users

Consumers Energy in Michigan is using verizon's network for their smart meters. They certainly don't have 4G LTE transceivers in them. They haven't even finished their smart meter deployment and in less than 8 years, they will have to swap them all out again because the cell network they use is obsolete. Consumers made a big mistake by relying on verizon's network.

OnStar is another probable big customer of Verizon. OnStar kept the old analog cell network going for quite a while.

The fire/burglar alarm industry is another user of verizon's 2G/3G network.

So yes, it really is going to take 8 years to shut down as there is some equipment that uses it that will be costly to change out.



anon

@ut.us

How do Repeater

How do repeaters work? Usually what they consist of is A Antenna on the roof. The ones I am familar with have an antenna that looks like a V with a Rod in the middle of it and then they aim it at the nearest cell site. the signal comes into the building, into an amplifier that amplifys the signal, then there are small antenna's that look similar to smoke detectors scattered throughout the building. This is just a generic description of the ones I have seen. You dont nessecarily need an antenna on every level. what I have observed is the higher you get in a building, the reception usually gets better. But you also depending on how much area you are trying to cover have to size your amplifier accordingly and the last I messed with them they were limited to roughly 80,000 sq ft. Maybe they do more now I dont know. Also, its roughly 20K per install.