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Comments on news posted 2012-10-23 10:12:48: Carriers today launched a joint initiative aimed at replacing your debit card -- with your smartphone. Today AT&T, Verizon Wireless and T-Mobile launched Isis in the trial markets of Salt Lake City, Utah and Austin, Texas. ..


ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL

wow

this a complete copy of google wallet or did I miss something?

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: wow

Google wallet is pure software. Its basically like paypal. As far as the banking aspect I think this is the same. Probably counting on the same lack of laws that is currently 'protecting' paypal from their blunders.

However, the authorization system is different. For paypal/google wallet your authorization comes from you supplying your password at some point. This system uses RFID so you don't need to enter any password. Its just like a speedpay system at a gas station or some of those toll booths that you just drive through. The presence of your phone is enough. Its a bit more convenient.

For me they will need to tie it to a credit card. Paypal, Google Wallet, etc. have nothing like the protectiions of a credit card. If someone hacks your CC, you don't loose anything. If someone hacks your paypal you are ass-out.
--
dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: wow

Actually someone did hack my Paypal 2 years ago, and they reversed the charge as it was obvious fraud. Maybe because it was a purchase and not money transfer?

Ironically, I'd tried the Paypal debit card 10 years ago, and it was stolen with $50 on it that they never made whole.

ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL
I know it works via RFID, I was not aware you had to enter a password.

actually, if you tie your google wallet to a credit card it is protected. all purchases go through the credit card and carry the protections that are on the card.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

1 recommendation

said by dnoyeB:

Google wallet is pure software.

Not always. Google Wallet on phones and tablets (e.g. Nexus 7) with NFC also have a hardware aspect.

For me they will need to tie it to a credit card. Paypal, Google Wallet, etc. have nothing like the protectiions of a credit card. If someone hacks your CC, you don't loose anything. If someone hacks your paypal you are ass-out.

Tie your paypal or google wallet to a credit card. Then it's protected. It's not rocket science.
meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT
Not even remotely true. Google Wallet uses a hardware chip in your phone called the "secure element" - that's why it only works on unlocked/unbranded Galaxy Nexus + some Sprint phones.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

Re: wow

Since Google Wallet works on the desktop, without hardware implements, my statement is at least 'remotely' true.
meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT

Re: wow

My mistake, it appears we're talking about two different products both called "Google Wallet" - the one you're referring to used to be called Google Checkout and I forgot it had been merged into the Wallet branding.

The Google Wallet I and others are referring to is a phone app VERY similar to ISIS. The biggest technical difference is that ISIS uses a secure token on the SIM card, and Google Wallet uses one built into the phone. Both require a phone with NFC and support for either an ISIS SIM card or a built in "secure element."

Sorry if I came across rude, it wasn't my intention - I just couldn't figure out what you were talking about. I forgot about checkout being rebranded as wallet.

I just used Google Wallet today, at Home Depot and then to grab lunch at McDonald's.

mikedz4

join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

Re: wow

so my verizon galaxy nexus can't use google wallet?
meowmeow

join:2003-07-26
Helena, MT

Re: wow

Officially, no. The hardware is there, Verizon blocks the app. I've heard some people have had success installing it from the web at »play.google.com - if that doesn't work, you'll have to search Google. But it CAN be made to work - I saw a guy paying with a Verizon Galaxy Nexus at McDonald's a couple days ago (I know it was Verizon because he sells phone at Costco and I've talked to him a couple times so he said hi in line, nice guy). I shouldn't have said "only works" but rather "only officially works" - most people are suspicious enough, they're not going to hack their phones to get something working on it.

Sam N

@rr.com
But Google Wallet uses your credit card. It is simply a gateway that serves as a middle man, so all the credit card security is still there. Google charges a virtual Google Mastercard for your transaction, then charges the credit card you have on file afterwards. So it is just another credit card transaction that shows up on your credit card bill. Unless your bank has specifically stated that they do not insure this type of transaction it is covered like everything else. There is no reason for them to differentiate this credit card transaction from any other credit card transaction unless they have put a system in place specifically to do so and clarified it with the customer. Otherwise, they wouldn't even know it was done with Google Wallet (aside from the name Google Wallet in the transaction, which they would actually have to look at your bill to see).

There is no personal banking info stored on your device. The only info is that of the Google virtual Mastercard, so it is not susceptible to attacks, at least not those that aim to obtain your personal information. And the idea of not having to enter a PIN is great, until you lose your phone... although again it would be covered like anything else. The only glitch is that you may have to report the card as stolen with the bank rather than the phone. This wouldn't really be necessary if you catch it quickly, however, as Google Wallet can be disabled remotely.

Final point, Verizon has taken measures to have Google Wallet blocked from the market in an effort to be anti-competitive by forcing the user to use their product. For this reason, I will never use ISIS, as I am not open to the idea of being a puppet that is manipulated by a greedy corporation.

Kyle

@comcast.net
No you are not missing anything. Typical teclo reacting instead of innovating.

jseymour

join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

2 recommendations

Care Not I Do

They could be giving away Free Lap Dances With Happy Ending for the life of the contract and I still wouldn't bite.

My good old reliable plastic credit cards work great and fit in my (real) wallet.

Jim

Duramax08
To The Moon
Premium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

1 recommendation

Re: Care Not I Do

^this.

richdelb
Go Hawks Go
Premium
join:2003-01-22
Algonquin, IL

Re: Care Not I Do

Same here. I'll keep my plastic.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
said by jseymour:

They could be giving away Free Lap Dances With Happy Ending for the life of the contract and I still wouldn't bite.

My good old reliable plastic credit cards work great and fit in my (real) wallet.

Jim

my grandfather said something similar about plastic debit cards
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

jseymour

join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

Re: Care Not I Do

said by AVD:

my grandfather said something similar about plastic debit cards

Ah hah hah hah ah hah

If debit cards would've cost to the tune of about $1200/year, then you'd have a point.

Jim

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

Re: Care Not I Do

that's an deceptive comparison at best, the majority of the population now already owns smartphones, this is just a new application for the smartphone that most already own. I don't know everything about ISIS, but google wallet costs the user nothing.

This is just a the next logical step in our movement away from paper currency. 40 years ago people would have been saying the same thing about relying primarily on a credit or debit card.
These days if I have cash it's usually by accident, or I'm going to one of the last few vestiges that doesn't take credit card.
Flee Markets, Garage sales etc.

It may take another 40 years for this to become as common as the debit card is today, but it will probably be much faster than that.

Luddites need not apply, no one will force you. You can still use cash for everything

LightS
Premium
join:2005-12-17
Greenville, TX

Re: Care Not I Do

Personally, I agree!

However, I don't feel like it should be tied to my smartphone. To protect it, you (should) need passwords. You should encrypt your phone's info (very easy on Android)) etc, so that it requires a password upon reboot.

The problem with all of this? Inconvenience for the end user. I personally don't care, but a lot of people sure are lazy these days..

jseymour

join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

1 recommendation

said by MovieLover76:

that's an deceptive comparison at best, the majority of the population now already owns smartphones,

No, it's not and no, they don't.

If it costs me little-to-nothing to carry plastic, but I have to have a "smart"phone with data plan that costs me $1200/year in fees to use ISIS, then ISIS costs $1200/year more than the plain old plastic credit cards. Secondly: As of the beginning of the year, the latest for which I could find numbers, 46-49% of the U.S. adult population owned "smart"phones.

I know many people w/o "smart"phones. Even a few that have no wireless phones at all.

said by MovieLover76:

Luddites need not apply, no one will force you. You can still use cash for everything

Has nothing to do with being a Luddite. Being a tech guy, I'm anything but a Luddite. It's all about the cost of "smart"phones, which I believe to be ludicrous--at least for anything shy of business use.

One of my closest geek buddies, whose family wireless bill is atrocious (somewhere north of $450/mo., IIRC), ruefully admitted to me, recently, "Yeah, there's really no justification for it, outside of mine, for my business."

Jim

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

2 edits

1 recommendation

Re: Care Not I Do

a simple google search results in many articles that state that in the US, the smartphone penetration rates exceeded 50% in August of this year
»www.gizmag.com/us-smartphone-pen···t/23768/

It is a deceptive comparison, because no one expects that someone is going to go out and buy a smartphone just to use the ISIS payment system, that would be insane.
But yet that is exactly what you are proposing in order to make your comparison.

Taking something you already own and adding a feature to it which costs no addition money is not a cost for that feature.
Your smartphones fees cover, voice text and data. At best if the ISIS system sends a few kilobytes of data during each transaction, you could add that extremely tiny portion of your data allotment to the price of using ISIS, but in reality it will be negligible.

People may choose to use it if they have a smartphone. It's not like credit and debit cards or cash are going away. They aren't marketing ISIS to non-smartphone users.

Finally, smartphones are a luxury item, no not everyone needs one, but I find mine extremely useful in my daily life and it makes my life easier. If something is worth the price is completely subjective, no one can decide for everyone else what is a justified expenditure and what is not.

It is true that you can pay extremely high rates for a family of smartphone users, but that is partially because people don't bother to look into their options, their are plenty of cheaper options than AT&T or Verizon. I myself pay only $45 for Straight Talk Smartphone service and for $45 a month the value I get out of my smartphone seems completely justified to me. Even if I paid $100 a month for my smartphone, if the price was worth it would still be a subjective opinion.

Also, I didn't tell those families that their kids need to have smartphones, in my mind giving your kid a smartphone and paying $80-90 a month for it is insane, I don't think kids need a smartphone, but if you've decided on getting them a smartphone, give them a cheaper prepaid option, like virgin mobile on $35 a month with 300 mins (most kids don't talk on phones anymore)

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
said by jseymour:

If it costs me little-to-nothing to carry plastic, but I have to have a "smart"phone with data plan that costs me $1200/year in fees to use ISIS, then ISIS costs $1200/year more than the plain old plastic credit cards.

Did you have your smartphone already and using it for other things already? If yes. Then it's free. I have credit cards each one charges a BS yearly fee.

Secondly: As of the beginning of the year, the latest for which I could find numbers, 46-49% of the U.S. adult population owned "smart"phones.



Notice the change in just 9 months. What will it be in 5 years?

I know many people w/o "smart"phones. Even a few that have no wireless phones at all.

We have some Amish here that have horse and buggies and no electricity.

Has nothing to do with being a Luddite. Being a tech guy, I'm anything but a Luddite. It's all about the cost of "smart"phones, which I believe to be ludicrous--at least for anything shy of business use.

As was stated if you don't want to use smartphone no one is forcing you to. For those that already have them I'm not sure what your beef is? There is no additional cost of this for those with smarthphones.

jseymour

join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

Re: Care Not I Do

said by 88615298:

Did you have your smartphone already and using it for other things already? If yes. Then it's free.

No, I do not, so, therefor, no, it would not be.

said by 88615298:

Notice the change in just 9 months. What will it be in 5 years?

If some of the predictions I've been reading lately are any guide: Not a whole lot different. They could be wrong, market analysts sometimes are, but it is believed by many that just about everybody that is inclined to go "smart"phone now has one--that the market is essentially saturated. Those analysts expect moderate growth in the "smart"phone market though next year, and then for it to essentially go flat.

We'll see.

said by 88615298:

I know many people w/o "smart"phones. Even a few that have no wireless phones at all.

We have some Amish here that have horse and buggies and no electricity.

I bet they're happier than most "smart"phone users you know

Jim

Morac
Cat god

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
Definitely this. Anyone who uses a debit card to pay for purchases is an idiot since there are no Government protections for debit card fraud.

If someone makes unauthorized purchases on your credit card, the most you are liable for is $50. If someone clones your debit card, they can drain your entire bank account dry and unless you catch it quickly your SOL.

»www.usa.gov/topics/money/banking···it.shtml

Adding this ability to a phone, which is already has NFC security problems and you might as well just throw your money away.
--
The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

Re: Care Not I Do

Not true at all, at least not in practice.
I made the mistake of giving a debit card to a cab driver and he stole my debit card information, he ran up $1000 in ski shop purchases. When I saw it happening, I contacted the bank and put in a fraudulent activity report and the money was returned to my account the next day.

Worked exactly the same as if my credit card was stolen. You may have to check with your individual bank but TD Bank covers the fraudulent activity.

Most banks give out Visa or Mastercard check cards, which operate like a credit card.

Morac
Cat god

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: Care Not I Do

If you catch it quickly enough it can be stopped yes, but the law only gives you a 2 day window. If you hadn't caught it, you would have been out of the money.

From the link I posted:
1. If you report the card stolen, you owe nothing on future charges.
2. If you don't and someone makes a debit (not credit) charge.
a) If you catch it within 2 days, you owe at most $50 just like a credit card.
b) If you catch it after 2 days, but within 60 days you owe at most $500
c) After that you are SOL. You are up to the mercy of the bank (some are more lenient than others).
I believe you are correct in that if the debit card is used as a credit card then you are protected, but since it is also a debit card, all someone needs is the pin and those protections vanish.

Again, it's much safer to use a credit card as they are a lot safer.

»lifehacker.com/5734973/how-to-av···bit-card
--
The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

Re: Care Not I Do

said by Morac:

If you catch it quickly enough it can be stopped yes, but the law only gives you a 2 day window. If you hadn't caught it, you would have been out of the money.

From the link I posted:
1. If you report the card stolen, you owe nothing on future charges.
2. If you don't and someone makes a debit (not credit) charge.
a) If you catch it within 2 days, you owe at most $50 just like a credit card.
b) If you catch it after 2 days, but within 60 days you owe at most $500
c) After that you are SOL. You are up to the mercy of the bank (some are more lenient than others).

I believe you are correct in that if the debit card is used as a credit card then you are protected, but since it is also a debit card, all someone needs is the pin and those protections vanish.

Again, it's much safer to use a credit card as they are a lot safer.

»lifehacker.com/5734973/how-to-av···bit-card

most banks give you better protection than the law requires. YMMV
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
If you can't use it as a debit card with the pin then it is ran as a credit card and you have credit card protection. It is that plain and simple for every debit/credit card.

1 - Some banks provide more/less coverage but there are regulations that cover the basics.
2 - Depending on person they may or may not be able to get any charges waived.
3 - Timing is everything. If you have money coming out of your bank account in large sums and you dont notice it pretty quick, then you probably have enough cash and wont mind any fees to begin with. This person would also qualify for #2 above as they are probably a responsible and good customer so fees dont matter either way. It is pay check to pay check people that will get hit with fees and will probably know pretty dang quick that they are out of money.

techguyga
Premium
join:2003-12-31
Cumming, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

Re: Care Not I Do

As long as the transaction is processed through the Visa or MasterCard systems (AKA, don't use a PIN for the transaction), the transaction is protected by Visa or MasterCard, just like any other "real" credit card. If you use your PIN during the transaction, is doesn't go through the CC system and it's up to what the government/bank covers.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

Re: Care Not I Do

And these payment system process the transactions as credit card transactions so your protected, I don't think I ever use my debit card as a debit card with the pin number, unless I go to the ATM.

So the protection is just as good as credit cards in the vast majority of cases. A thief is going to try to use it as a credit card instead of trying to guess my pin, and I've never told anyone my pin number.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
Didnt I just say that?

techguyga
Premium
join:2003-12-31
Cumming, GA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
I wish the banks would pull their heads out of their asses and implement chip-and-PIN cards. The US is the last civilized country to not use this technology in it's cards. I travel internationally for work and find it increasingly difficult to use the "good old reliable plastic credit card", because the rest of the world is so far ahead of the US. Business should focus more on credit card security than on tech such as this, that probably won't even be available in a majority of stores.
--
My hourly rates:
$35 per hour.
$45 per hour if you want to watch.
$55 per hour if you want to help.
$100 per hour if you already tried to fix it.
big_e

join:2011-03-05
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Frontier Communi..

Re: Care Not I Do

Pin and Chip has been cracked. It's almost entirely due to shoddy implementation of the protocol by the POS terminals. It used to be that the technology was considered so reliable that the credit card companies didn't have to refund your money in fraudulent use cases because it was your fault that you revealed your pin.

tmh

@myvzw.com
said by jseymour:

They could be giving away Free Lap Dances With Happy Ending for the life of the contract and I still wouldn't bite.

I would. I guess we differ on that.

But I wouldn't want her to bite on the happy ending either.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
Reviews:
·Comcast

Rooted wont work?

Rooted phones won't work with the new service? Interesting. When you have root, anything running underneath can't know whats going on. Otherwise its not really root.
--
dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16

•••••

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 edit

RFID

I hadn't noticed that some phones started shipping with RFID technology. That could be handy at my job if I got an app that will read RFID tags. Luckily I have a Galaxy Nexus which has the RFID capability!

I wonder why Galaxy Nexus was not on the list of phones to get this service from T-Mobile!?
--
dnoyeB

"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes
9:16

Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

Danger Zone




"ISIS isn't your own personal travel agency. it doesn't exist so you can jet off to Whore Island."

•••
desarollo

join:2011-10-01
Monroe, MI

1 recommendation

NFW

These companies have proven themselves time and time again that at a minimum, they can't bill properly for their own services and disputing charges with them is a mind numbing ordeal. I can't possibly trust them to act as a responsible and reliable third party billing agent.

Not to mention, tying geographical location, web browsing history, text, calling and now (wishfully) a purchase history, these people have way too much insight into my not-so-non-personally identifiable very personally identifiable life.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC

Re: NFW

It's true, phone companies are the last respectable business I'd want near my wallet.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Purchase Protection

Conventional credit card purchases (debit card? are you nuts!?) bring with them built in benefits like rebate points and warranty extensions. Fraud protection offered by credit cards is also unmatched. Perhaps if this venture offered something much better than these things, it might be worth considering.
--
Romney/Ryan 2012 - Put a couple of mature adults in charge.

•••••••

Beans

@verizon.net

So.....

This means that phone theft will rise even higher?
TexasRebel

join:2011-05-29
Edgewood, TX

1 recommendation

Couldn't be more obvious?!?

Wow call it ISIS... Egyptian goddess who was worshiped as the ideal mother and wife as well as the patron of nature and magic. She was the friend of slaves, sinners, artisans, and the downtrodden, and she listened to the prayers of the wealthy, maidens, aristocrats, and rulers.

What's next?!? The Babylonian Credit Card?? Sub-dermal RFID in your hand or forehead..

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Couldn't be more obvious?!?

said by TexasRebel:

What's next?!? The Babylonian Credit Card?? Sub-dermal RFID in your hand or forehead..

Well, we can't all exactly carry around golden calves to pay for everything. Ever try to make change with one of those things?
--
Romney/Ryan 2012 - Put a couple of mature adults in charge.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Sheep sez: "Bah"

The reason industry is pushing NFC and other "easier" payment systems is simply that ... the "easier" it is to spend, the more likely you'll make the purchase, and you'll spend more on the purchase, especially with the allure of "points" and other nonsense.
big_e

join:2011-03-05
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Frontier Communi..

So what's in it for me?

What exactly would I be gaining to persistently store my financial information on a platform that has been proven to be easily compromised by malware? I'm sure the wireless companies are getting their share of the swipe fees for each transaction. My american express card had a wireless chip built into it for years, it seem to confuse the few POS terminals that support it more than anything else, so I have to swipe it anyways.

Regardless of what the constitution says everyone has to carry their state issued photo ID at all times when they are outside their own home and present their papers to the proper authority figures upon demand, so the wallet isn't going away anytime soon. You might as well put your sensitive financial information in there as well, and keep it securely in your pocket as opposed to the easily lost and stolen cell phone.

•••
decifal

join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1

all

This is all I need, more ways for people to hijack my account and take my few dollars that I have :-/

•••••••
tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2

Not Working

So far ISIS is little more then a joke. I so want it to work but it appears, even after the year of delays that they still cannot get basic service right.

The map of vendors on their website is a joke. No ability to search or narrow down the area. For example, in Salt Lake City it starts at the middle and you need to go through page after page just to branch out. This makes no sense. It's not like this is new tech. So if I want to find a vendor 20 miles away from downtown SLC, I need to go through page after page of locations (around 20 pages) before I start to get close. I'm then also pulling up all of the other vendors in all locations.

I stopped by a Home Dept on the list. No way to pay with ISIS and no one even knew about it. I did not see any electronic device to even read NFC in the phone. Nothing with the ISIS symbol on it. Does ISIS really expect people to just wander into places and kept trying to pay with their system? Gee ISIS, how about if you make your possible customers do all of the leg work for you? That is a sure what to get ahead of Google Wallet that has been out for over a year.

So far, a joke.

••••••••••••••••••••