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Comments on news posted 2012-11-05 17:37:41: Speaking during the company's earnings conference call earlier today, Time Warner Cable COO Rob Marcus stated that the cable operator will be bumping the speed of their standard broadband Internet tier by about 50 percent over the next 60 days. ..


motorola870
join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX

motorola870

Member

Extreme and ultimate to get some speed bumps as well?

what about extreme and ultimate? I heard there might be increases in Dallas and NYC where bonding has been activated on the upstream also Dallas and NYC are the only markets so far to have 6 downstreams per node dedicated H.S.I.
misfits138
join:2012-11-05

misfits138

Member

Just curious

What goes into increasing standard speed by 5mbs? Is it very complicated or pretty much a few strokes on a keyboard?
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

They have to have the capacity to do it before just hitting the button. Theoretically, they could uncap the connection, and D2 modems would run at 38mbps, D3 at 38mbps per channel they can bond, but in reality, if they did that, you'd get the full speed at like 3 in the morning, but during prime usage times the whole network would slow down to a crawl.

They could add capacity by splitting nodes and/or adding more D3 channels. The fiber to the node usually has much more than the coax is set up for.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

Actually, that check too is a simple click of a mouse. (or in every NOC I've ever worked... just look up at the traffic graph on the big screen.)

To answer the OP... Yes. It's a number in a config file. It's an "upgrade" they've performed many times over the last decade plus... 3 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8, then then D3 upgrades lead to 10, and now 15.

(PS: all ISPs over subscribe their network. TWC is no different, and this will not deter them from upping the advertised speeds. Look around the internet and you'll find plenty of accounts of people not getting the advertised speed.)
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina to BiggA

Member

to BiggA
Regarding FTTN -- do we still think cable's current limits are the last mile coax? Obviously this depends on how well the cable plant has been managed but I suspect unleashing DOCSIS limits would obliterate their backbone to the Internet well before straining the last-mile coax.

The reason I suspect this is that most cable companies continue to increase speed on a steady pace. Are they really continuing to push fiber deeper and deeper into their networks or within the past few years have they reached "far enough" to where nodes are small enough to have plenty of bandwidth? (Perhaps not to deliver 1Gpbs but certainly 15Mbps and probably 38Mbps wouldn't create a crisis.)

In my area, Charter still provides 60 or 70 analog channels. Considering each uses 6mhz + guard bands, that's close to 500mhz of capacity just ready to be reclaimed! They also stream those same channels in SD digital along with lots of HD, VOD and 100Mbps HSI. Recent ratings show them having no problem delivering all of this during peak periods.

What still makes no sense to me is the CAPs. Surely it's no longer about concurrent user experience. Cable speeds are such that even extreme users would have difficulty maxing out their connections doing anything related to a typical consumer -- even if they watched constant NetFlix streams.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

The technological limits are 100% the last-mile. Fiber, when set up correctly, has massive capacity way beyond that of DOCSIS. Of course that's not to say that there aren't systems out there with shiny new D3 gear running on older fiber backhaul that are backhaul limited. AT&T's shiny new 3G network was backhaul limited for years before they saturated the air interfaces with gig IP-RAN for fake 4G.

They have had to push fiber father out not just for internet, but also for VOD, which uses QAM channels. Comcast here has gotten rid of analog, and shortly thereafter, they added more HD VOD content, more HD channels, and more internet speed.

The caps aren't effective at what they need to do, which is manage peak traffic on the last-mile. However, they don't really know how to do better, and the investors of course push for monetization. I think the best solution would be to go back to "don't abuse it but we don't have a set cap" but don't kick the abusers off, just shape and throttle them during peak usage, and then let them hit it hard at 3 in the morning.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: Just curious

Please read what I said again. I questioned "backbone to the Internet". I understand that relative to wires, fiber bandwidth is unlimited. From that perspective, yes, all the "technological" limitations are in the wire plant, not the fiber plant. However, my question doesn't have anything to do with comparing fiber with wires. I'm asking whether or not major cable players have at least reached a temporary equilibrium where a last-mile coax node is sufficiently small as to no longer represent a major limiting factor. Furthermore, if they eliminated DOCIS speeds, the aggregate bandwidth would combine and be limited by their Internet drains rather than their coax plant.

The reason I ask is because over the last several years I've witnessed a relentless march by cable providers to ever faster base speeds. I can remember when my package was 3Mbps, then 8Mbps, then 12Mbps and then 15Mbps. Although I'm currently stuck with a multi-year fixed-price deal, the base is now 30Mbps! All of these increases seem to have had no impact on peak performance and it makes me wonder how they do this and keep ~70 analog channels. It seems impossible unless their coax nodes are so small that the coax segment, at least for the moment, isn't limiting their capabilities.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

Very little of the relative bandwidth on a plant is for DOCSIS. 3-5% would be typical.

It's really hard to know if they have enough backbone capacity. But we do know it's easy to add. Just add more fiber.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: Just curious

Yes, easier than replacing coax with fiber but how cost prohibitive is it? Does removing DOCSIS speed limits mean they have to double or triple their capacity to the Internet (i.e. add capacity from their upstream providers -- Verizon, Qwest, AT&T, Level3, C&W etc.) or in other cases, their own existing fiber WANs that feed traffic to a major Internet access cities (NYC, WDC, CHI, SF, etc.)

For instance, Charter in St. Louis appears to have built its own private WAN between STL and KC so it can serve other plants they own in the state and connect with Qwest in KC. It also appears that they have built their own WAN between STL and Chicago to trade traffic in that major hub. Although St. Louis is well connected and Charter used ATT several years ago, it appears they have bypassed local interconnects in favor of trading a lot of traffic in Chicago. I can only guess they invested considerable capital in building these links and I wonder if the constraint is now managing the capacity of these links if they were to remove DOCSIS governors.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

I don't think there is any way to reliably run an uncapped system. One user could use up all the bandwidth on it.

Fiber is expensive, and while telcos have to do it, or else fail (U-Verse), because copper pair wire has so little bandwidth left in it, cable operators don't, as they would be much wiser to push 8-channel bonding, new versions of DOCSIS, 1ghz plants, SDV, and all-digital before they need a new medium to deliver their service.

The constraints on DOCSIS are all in the RF plant. Backhaul is easy to add. They can, and will, add DOCSIS speed and capacity as competition makes it necessary (as it has with FIOS).

The takeaway is that Comcast is much more comfortable pushing more bandwidth, more channels of DOCSIS, and more fiber farther out into the last mile than they are competing with price, and they want to keep it that way.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: Just curious

".. no reliable way to run an uncapped system. One user could use up all the bandwidth..."

That statement doesn't make sense to me. What do you mean by this? DOCSIS 2 is only capable of around ~40Mbps. The current crop of D3 modems are only capable of about 300Mbps but only if current chipsets maximum channels are exploited. Surely FTTN that serves 300 houses with a 50% penetration rate (150 customers) isn't going to be exhausted by one user even if everyone is configured with 100Mbps capability. 1) It's doubtful even a heavy user will be able to max out such a connection on one site because the other end is governed. They would have to use a multi-site download or some other kind of other file transfer mechanism that specializes in using multiple sockets to maximize throughput. 2) If the 150 customers are served by bonding different sets of some 20 channels, it's statistically unlikely that multiple exceptional customers such as this will collide.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

... isn't going to be exhausted by one user even if everyone is configured with 100Mbps capability.

By definition, that's A CAP. Uncapped means zero obstruction to using the full bandwidth of the system. If it's capable of 40, you can use all 40. If it's capable of 300, you can use all 300.

If you don't think this is bad, or even possible, please stop by my office and I'll show you just how bad it can get thanks to ONE user! The *ONLY* thing that will put a limit in such a system is the speed of the remote side of the connection. (or connections) ISPs limit per user connection speeds and deploy queing methods to more evenly/fairly divide their finite bandwidth.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: Just curious

You misunderstood what I meant by removing the throttle. We're also both probably using the wrong term for CAP since that's usually associated with a quantity of bytes over a period of time and not the speed at which they are transferred.

If one user can jeopardize the system, there are deep, deep issues that go beyond what we can discuss here.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA to cramer

Premium Member

to cramer
Exactly. People used to uncap modems, and the cable companies cracked down on it, as if it became more widespread, it could have really screwed cable systems up... And yeah, one user could screw with a system if they were sucking the full bandwidth of all the channels.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: Just curious

But that's in the past, isn't it? Isn't all that stuff now controlled by the CMTS? (i.e. PowerBoost?) If so, that means there's no excuse, other than poor management, for one user to lay waste to the "system" (whatever that means). At worst they can impact a node but if properly managed, the CMTS should be able to use pretty basic algorithms to balance what's available across all the node's active users. I say let them have it all...unless, as I've been postulating, the last mile is, for the moment, capable enough that if they did this, the problem would reveal itself upstream.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Just curious

Yes, Comcast does it farther upstream, but it's still a form of capping. It's necessary for a stable system.

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4 to BiggA

Member

to BiggA
Isn't that how @home worked before they tried to merge with excite and went the way of the dodo bird?

AMDUSER
Premium Member
join:2003-05-28
Earth,
ARRIS CM8200
ARRIS SB6183

AMDUSER

Premium Member

Not bad...

Well, this should help the earnings a little bit.. [it says on Stopthecap - that At&t was using agressive promotions].. I find that very believable. [I saved about $30 per month dumping TWC phone and internet..]
This could prove intersting locally, as that is faster then most of the At&t IPDSL services available locally.
PowerMac
join:2011-03-02
Anaheim, CA

1 recommendation

PowerMac

Member

..

AWWWW ((( Just increase the upload speed! I will take 2mbps upload!
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom

Member

Re: ..

Yeah, upload is weak. If you maxed both you probably won't even get above 10mb/s
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: ..

How do you figure that?
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom

Member

Re: ..

Downloading requires some upload overhead. On something like 100/1 it would be impossible to reach full download speed. Effect on 15/1 isn't that bad, but it's not good either
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: ..

Relatively common misconception.

Yes, TCP has to have a stream of responses.

No, they don't take even 1% of your bandwidth.

More like 0.1%.

I dislike highly asymmetric connections as much as anyone else, but you'll have no problem hitting 15 Mbps down and 0.9 Mbps up simultaneously.
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

2012

in 2012, even with dsl.. it's embarassing to have broadband below 15 megabits.. and for a cableco in the top 4...
Splork
join:2001-02-20
Austin, TX

Splork

Member

Increase!

This is just a precursor to a rate increase in 2013. "Oh hey, remember when we doubled your internet speed? Now I need $5 more per month."
bugabuga
join:2004-06-10
Austin, TX

bugabuga

Member

Re: Increase!

But they've already increased the rates by $4
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom to Splork

Member

to Splork
Let's hope there isn't metered billing...

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

Packeteers

Premium Member

my basic is already 15 - what now

i pay standard and test at 15/1 non prime time and 10/1 prime times.



so am i already getting 15 or will i get 20/1 and 15/1 during 2013
FYI: i got my own SB5101U so no new $4 fees on my monthly bill.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

I have grandfathered turbo at 15/1 -do I get a price break?

I signed up for Turbo right before Oceanic TWC discontinued the 15/1 tier. I am not happy with it because I don't get anywhere near 15 down and I am paying $10 a month more for a small increase or no increase in speed.

So, what happens when Standard gets 15/1? Does that mean $10 is knocked of my bill each month? Or do I get current Turbo for 20/2 for the extra $10?

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb

Premium Member

Re: I have grandfathered turbo at 15/1 -do I get a price break?

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

A friend of mine currently is paying $36.95 for "Standard Internet" and an extra $10.00 for "Turbo Internet Upgrade 15mbps" (that is what it says on her bill).

Now, TWC can do whatever they want, but I don't see them doing nothing. If they did, I know a LOT of people would drop the Turbo and save themselves the extra $10 each month for the same speed. This in turn would cause TWC to loose $10 a month on a lot of customers.

I would think that something would change for those on turbo. Hopefully, they bump up that tier (to 20mbps or 25mbps?) and keep collecting the extra $10 a month. I feel that would be fair.

--Brian
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

Re: I have grandfathered turbo at 15/1 -do I get a price break?

I just sent an email to someone at Oceanic TWC who should know and, if he doesn't, he'll find out quickly. He's out of the office a lot though and I got a "out of office" auto reply back which isn't helpful as it says he will be back on "August 2, 2012".

15/1 no longer exists though....at least not here. I got it just before Oceanic stopped selling it so I am on a grandfathered plan. Turbo currently is 20/2 and TWC announcement said nothing about that tier also being upgraded. In Hawaii, the only folks who have Turbo at 15/1 are those grandfathered in who did not move to the 20/2 tier when that was introduced at $20 a month more than Standard tier and $10 a month more than what had been Turbo (15/1).

I agree TWC will lose money if they do nothing except raise Standard to 15/1. I too will revert to Standard if that is the case. But here, there are not many on 15/1 since it is grandfathered as of last August 1 and no new customers could sign up for it . So, TWC may do nothing. I don't think the money lost if they do nothing would be significant ...at least not in my division.

I think they should make current Turbo at 20/2 only $10 a month more than Standard...not the current $20 a month more. I don't think it is worth that. Or keep the $20 a month more than Standard and up the speed to 25/2.

banditws6
Shrinking Time and Distance
Premium Member
join:2001-08-18
Frisco, TX

1 recommendation

banditws6

Premium Member

Not too shabby, but would like more upload

I was just saying to my friend yesterday (who is also on TWC) how I hoped competitive forces would push TWC to increase base speeds. Glad to see it happen. Since I am not a TV subscriber I feel like I am paying a lot for not too much (I'm on the 10/1), and this will help some.

Still, can we please get some more upload in here? 1 Mbps in the age of cloud storage is seriously painful. Even if you subscribed to the top speed tier package TWC offers in this area, you still only get 5 Mbps up. Ugh.

waldoooo
join:2001-12-15
Fountain Valley, CA

waldoooo

Member

always tests 15mb download anyway

I wish they would up the base upload speed a little bit, its really sad when my cell phone will upload at 2x-3x the speed of my home connection. When I have sent a couple large files I tethered to my cell to do it faster

rebus9
join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay

rebus9

Member

Cap

Usually in these threads, someone mentions this is just a way to hit the monthly download cap sooner.

I'm kinda proud of ya'll for not doing it this time.

•••

slyphoxj
join:2002-06-23
united state

1 edit

slyphoxj

Member

Yet another reason to consider leaving WOW

Hmmmmm......

My household currently pays $110+change a month to WOW for 15/2 internet (own my modem, so no modem rental charge ), Digital TV Basic (fewer HD channels than we had with with TWC), 3 HD boxes ($21/month just for the privilege of being able to see the HD versions of all the SD channels WOW sends in clearQAM on all our TV's).

We're getting fed up with the pixelation and freezing on the HD channels. A firmware upgrade they did to my modem caused a "watchdog timer" issue (but it appears to have finally been fixed now). And not only that, WOW upgraded (more like downgraded) their billing/admin system... people in the WOW forum here are complaining about 75 minute wait times!

My sister got a nice promo for $31.98/month from TWC for 12 months for basic 70 channel analog cable... too difficult to get all of the 19 Cleveland area OTA broadcast channels reliably in her "dugout" apartment (term I coined for a bottom floor apartment that's partially below grade). The simple rabbit ears, even the amplified ones, weren't getting the job done.

I could get analog basic cable from TWC for ~$32/month for 1 year and AT&T 3/0.5 DSL for $14.95 for a year... less than half of what we're paying to WOW now! Having HD and the faster speeds is nice, but $110 for cable + internet is a bit hard for me to stomach.

We're going to call TWC again and see if they can get close to the ~$88/month we were paying for 10/1 RoadRunner, digital cable, 1 HD box and 1 HD DVR box (this promo ran out right before we switched to WOW about a year ago).

EDIT: Added "from TWC" to the paragraph beginning with "My sister..."

antdude
Matrix Ant
Premium Member
join:2001-03-25
US

antdude

Premium Member

Which markets, caps, faster uploads, etc.?

It said most... Which ones are and are not getting the speed upgrades?

What about caps, faster uploads, etc.? I guess the new monthly cable modem rental fees pay for this speed upgrade.
ExoticFish
join:2008-08-31
Zebulon, NC

1 recommendation

ExoticFish

Member

Re: Which markets, caps, faster uploads, etc.?

Don't think it is costing TWC 300 million to increase speeds that small amount. LoL
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to antdude

Premium Member

to antdude
The Stop the Cap article says ALL get it.

Oceanic TWC still has no idea about it and this is some persons in management. So, I think Corporate hasn't said much, if anything, to the divisions yet.

I was offered 20/2 today for the same price I pay now for grandfathered Turbo at 15/1. It's a year's promotion but if Standard does go to 15/1 this year then I don't think Oceanic can continue to charge $20 a month more for 20/2. So, the year's promotion will likely become permanent.

I could not get it turned on today because I have a DOCSIS 2 rental modem and Oceanic will not provision 20/2 on any modem except two DOCSIS 3 Motorola Surfboards you can rent or buy. So, I may be waiting as long as a month for Oceanic to get out here with the 6141 modem and check things to get me a better upstream power level. (I won't know the appointment time until next Monday or Tuesday).