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Comments on news posted 2012-11-14 10:21:53: AT&T broadband users continue to claim there's something not quite right about the way AT&T calculates data usage for their capped DSL and U-Verse users. ..

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rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to TelecomEng

Re: Hmm...

I was about ready to answer that way too but then I read his posts again and thought about it more. Why couldn't a character have originally been defined as 10 bits? Perhaps it's because 10-bit boundaries would have been really wacky and inefficient in terms of an address controller?

gkloepfer
Premium
join:2012-07-21
Austin, TX
reply to Kearnstd
The most likely reason for 8 bit bytes was because a decimal digit could be represented by 4 bits (a "nybble" or "nibble" as it was called). It probably made sense to increase the data bus size in increments of 4 bits. Early processors even had special instructions to deal with decimal arithmetic as to avoid having to convert an 8-bit binary number to up to 3 groups of 4 bits (which was generally displayed using a hardware decoder onto a 7 segment display).

The first large minicomputer I used (PDP-10/PDP-20) had a 36 bit "word" (data size) which likewise gives heartburn to those who write emulators on modern hardware that is more geared toward 32 bits and multiples of that.

In any case, increasing the widths by powers of 2 have some special advantages at the machine level over other sizes, which is the most likely reason they chose 8 over 10 bits as the size of a byte.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to plencnerb

Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....

said by plencnerb:

To me, the same rules of development and testing come in place here. Either code the meters to work, or don't put them into use. Its that's simple.

Ditto for voting machines. But I digress.
We now take you back to our regularly scheduled "overcharging for bits & bytes" discussion.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to 88615298

Re: Weights and measures

said by 88615298:

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole.

The mass is a property of an object. It does not change.(*)
Weight on the other side is the force exerted by gravitation. We conveniently refer to mass as weight as on Earth the difference is negligible for most practical purposes. We are actually measuring the weight force and translating into "the mass that produces the weight on Earth".
-----
(*)exception for objects that absorb or release energy in nuclear fusion or fission reactions.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole.

??
You're confusing lbs with KG, kg's don't change as a result of gravity.

Data is completely different. Data is simply a count. Like, I have 3 apples. All of our measuring devices are subject to physical variations such as temperatures, pressures etc. The units are also defined by substances, for instance, 1 KG is 1 L of water. 1 L doesn't change based on external forces, but the amount of water contained within that space sure does hence the definition of 1 KG being 1 L / water needs contraints on the variables that affect it.

Data is simply a count. I transfered 3 apples, either you did or you didn't, there are no external forces that change that count. it's either right or it's wrong


DanielWestt

@mycingular.net
reply to steelyken

Re: Who is being charged?

I have been charged all but 2 months this year with my dry dsl 6mb connection. And for dslextreme, when called them to get service you have to have a phone line. Which adds 20 plus dollars to the overall price.

And to the " not a revenue stream", my local cable isp(cableone), charges 50 cents per gig over there 50gig a month cap, 100 gigs with bundle.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to 88615298

Re: 1GB =1000mb

said by 88615298:

I don't care what you say it's 1024 and any ISP charging overages based on 1000 will get sued and lose.

Unless the carrier explicitly defined their 1MB as 1024KB, the proper SI definition applies.

Even in the Seagate and Western Digital cases which are the most famous disputes of that nature, both manufacturers claimed using SI definition is standard practice and both class actions were settled with neither company admitting any wrongdoing.

If HDD manufacturers had been willing to go all the way, they would probably have prevailed but that would have cost them more in legal fees and bad publicity than settling.

If the class actions were convinced they would win, they would not have accepted to settle without some form of apology other than software or small refund almost nobody will bother to claim.


koolman2
Premium
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK
reply to prairiesky

Re: Weights and measures

Pounds and grams both measure the same thing: mass. 5 kg = 11.023 lbs on Earth as well as the moon.


arandomguy

@suddenlink.net
Nope. Grams and their variants are a measure of the amount of mass an object has. Pounds is a measure of the force of gravity over an object. An object will weigh less on the moon, but will still have the same mass. Does no one take science class these days?


dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to sirwoogie

Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headers

That's a real shame. The fattening of the packet is within their own network. The data into and out of their network is the smaller unpackaged data. How can they charge you for the size of the data in their network!? That's like sending a letter to someone and being charged for the weight of the airplane if flew in.
--
dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16


dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
kudos:1
reply to InvalidError

Re: 1GB =1000mb

but 1MB = 1024KB is illogical. Only a lawyer can appreciate that.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to koolman2

Re: Weights and measures

there is a mass pound, but the general term lb/pound refers to a weight, which is a force not a mass. Because the mass pound and the force pound (weight) are so closely labeled, Grams are much preferred for use of mass.

WernerSchutz

join:2009-08-04
Sugar Land, TX
reply to elray

Re: Who is being charged?

said by elray:

Wired caps are an inexpensive tool to influence behavior, not create additional revenue.

Yeah, for sure.


NO to ESPN

@sbcglobal.net

What is the Actual Intent?

Sounds criminal to me as this will be potentially used to defraud people.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to prairiesky

Re: Weights and measures

said by prairiesky:

there is a mass pound, but the general term lb/pound refers to a weight, which is a force not a mass.

No they are not.
lbs are imperial units for mass, kilograms are [SI] units for mass.


maartena
Elmo
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:3

Usage based billing should be closely monitored.

Any company that bills it's customers by a certain amount used or acquired, is subject to independent agencies and/or state officials checking up on them to make sure they have accurate metering.

Examples:

- Your water, gas, or electricity meter at your home.
- The scale at the local supermarket.
- The pump at the gas station.
- Your phone bill minutes/seconds used.

These things have all been measured for sometimes centuries. Weights in shops were checked way back to the middle ages when city officials would just show up to a shop and compare the shopkeeper's weights to the official weights of the city.

Phone companies used to use an inaudible pulse that would click 10 times a minute with billing intervals for every 6 seconds.

Accurate gas, electricity and water metering has been around for many, MANY decades.

Gas pumps have been pretty precise since the 1920's, back when they even had visible glass tops where they would first fill a big glass bowl to a certain level which had gallon marking on it.

Everything that is paid for per amount used or per amount purchased.... has been scrutinized over the ages to ensure customers aren't getting ripped off.

With so many reports of 20, 30, sometimes more percent difference between what AT&T wants to charge you versus what actually came in (and went out) of your home, they too should be closely monitored and their meters should be tested and proven accurate before they can charge customers.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"


NOCTech75
Premium
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to rradina

Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....

said by rradina:

I'm not defending HSI metering but the electric company is an allowed monopoly.

So are many HSI companies.


maartena
Elmo
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:3
reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:

One difference is that you are measuring it from YOUR side of the modem and I think this is part of hte problem.

If they add something like this and then only track the LAN side of their modem they will not measure all the crap passed from the modem. However, they also wont be able to filter out crap that is "firewalled" if a customer is just using their modem in bridge mode.

Their issue is: they should not be measuring overhead and they should not be measuring stuff that is being blocked by the firewall.

In a setup where you have 1 LAN port active, no wireless on your gateway, and all traffic to/from the internet passes that 1 LAN port to your own wireless gateway... THAT should be the traffic you should be charged for, after all THAT is the traffic you requested.

If the Gateway receives 20% more information than you actually requested due to overhead, packet drops and firewall blocks.... you are talking some serious money. What about DDOS attacks? Failed downloads that can't be resumed?

If a malicious user plotting against you would send you continues data for a month at the rate of 1 Mbps.... you wouldn't even notice it, and probably AT&T would either.... but you would be downloading about 20 GB a day that way. That racks up a huge bill at the end of the month without you requesting ANY of that data.

And with the U-verse interleaving.... how much of a percentage of packets are lost just to make sure you get a good data rate?
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"


maartena
Elmo
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:3
reply to elray

Re: Who is being charged?

said by elray:

For all the populist ranting we read here nearly every week, has anyone actually been assessed an overage charge and had to pay it, or been disconnected?

Wired caps are an inexpensive tool to influence behavior, not create additional revenue. Telco knows well how inaccurate they are. It doesn't matter.

They will be unenforced in the interim, and will go away when "network neutrality" nonsense fades from view.

But if you all push hard enough, who knows, maybe we'll have a national modem standard that includes federally certified usage metering.

Be very careful what you wish for.

My Electricity bill has a $8 base fee, which means that if I use *nothing at all* I still pay a $8 bill. Gas and water have similar fees. They are kept low for a reason.... they are just there to make sure you have a line, a pipe, etc, and the line and/or pipe works.

I would have NO problem whatsoever to pay $10 for a pipe with an IP address, and ALL data being charged at the rate AT&T uses.

$10 for 50 GB, pro-rated would be $0.20 per GB, With a $10 base fee, my bill would be LESS if I only use 100 GB that month, and it would be MORE if I use more than 250 GB that month.

I say let them classify Internet as a utility, and implement a flat base rate for the un-used connection, and then charge for using it.

But again: It needs to be measured CORRECTLY. If the water pipe BEFORE it gets to my house leaks, I am not paying for that water as it hasn't past my meter yet. The way AT&T is measuring now, that water would be counted.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to NOCTech75

Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....

The video portion of their business, yes. But I was pretty sure the HSI is unregulated, isn't it?


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Now that they include anti-class action language...

In the service contracts, they know they have nothing to fear.

They can overcharge at will and know that the only recourse someone would have would be a lawsuit of their own which they could stonewall till the end of time.

This goes hand in hand with the article about lost subscriptions listed above. Despite the "Rosy Competition, let the market settle it" official propaganda that Telco and Cable put out, they know that in reality there's little choice and they have little to fear from *most* customers just leaving for good.

It's much more profitable to overcharge the entire base and not worry about the few who will leave permanently (Cord cutters.)

At least, right now it is.

... And I'm sure if cord cutting ever becomes a legitimate threat they'll call up Congress and pass more abusive copyright laws to try and force people to stay.....
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
reply to dnoyeB

Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headers

said by dnoyeB:

That's a real shame. The fattening of the packet is within their own network. The data into and out of their network is the smaller unpackaged data. How can they charge you for the size of the data in their network!? That's like sending a letter to someone and being charged for the weight of the airplane if flew in.

Actually it is more analogous to including the weight of both the letter and the envelope (and even the weight of the postage stamp), which is how the USPS actually measures the weight of letters. So AT&T's method is actually based on a very commonly accepted use of paying for transportation of both the message and the envelope.

I am not a big fan of AT&T or their business practices, but in this case they are following a commonly accepted method of measurement for charging for the transportation of information (and I have no doubt that AT&T's shysters and bean counters have taken that commonly accepted measurement method into consideration).
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


NOCTech75
Premium
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to rradina

Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....

said by rradina:

The video portion of their business, yes. But I was pretty sure the HSI is unregulated, isn't it?

For many Americans they can only get 1 or the other.. DSL or Cable hence creating a monopoly.


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
reply to en103

Re: DSL - ATM overhead

And the USPS charges you for the weight of both the letter itself and the weight of the envelope in which the letter is packaged. This is a commonly accepted method of charging for the cost of sending information. Why should AT&T not use the same method of measurement that works so well for the USPS?
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

They should have to be independently audited

In order to charge for things like that. I'd like to see it done on the wireless side as well, where it seems to me that their metering is erratic, as it usually doesn't match my local metering (although not always in the same direction).

elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink
reply to maartena

Re: Who is being charged?

said by maartena:

My Electricity bill has a $8 base fee, which means that if I use *nothing at all* I still pay a $8 bill. Gas and water have similar fees. They are kept low for a reason.... they are just there to make sure you have a line, a pipe, etc, and the line and/or pipe works.

I would have NO problem whatsoever to pay $10 for a pipe with an IP address, and ALL data being charged at the rate AT&T uses.

$10 for 50 GB, pro-rated would be $0.20 per GB, With a $10 base fee, my bill would be LESS if I only use 100 GB that month, and it would be MORE if I use more than 250 GB that month.

I say let them classify Internet as a utility, and implement a flat base rate for the un-used connection, and then charge for using it.

But again: It needs to be measured CORRECTLY. If the water pipe BEFORE it gets to my house leaks, I am not paying for that water as it hasn't past my meter yet. The way AT&T is measuring now, that water would be counted.

You've just made the case for measured service.
Indeed, a lot of people would save a lot of money this way, and I would welcome it with a UL-listed meter.

Trouble is, those here who would cry out for regulatory intervention would welcome a government-approved meter, which would have all sorts of Big-Brother functions you probably don't want, and of course, will incur a minimum AND usage-based tax.


hyphenated

@bellsouth.net
reply to JT01

Re: DSL Metering

Maybe it doesn't compile the stats until later times. Either way at the end of the month it should be close. If you knew exactly when their timer starts you could compare (not what the bill says but the real timer).

I think caps will be enforced and lowered (how much idk?) once the speed issue is addressed. Maybe even total usage based if they can get something standard. Nothing will calculate it the same but i don't think it should be off GBs. Idk maybe it would if its a week off.

AT&T cell phones will tell you that by calling *DATA#


DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

1 edit
reply to 88615298

Re: Weights and measures

said by 88615298:

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole.

You don't even know the first grade definition of mass....


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

i love when people apply Imperial theory to SI units, it just makes my day.

an LB is a force(F=M*A), not a mass, weight is a measurement of force, a slug is a mass not a force
a Newton is a force, not a mass, a kg is a mass not a force.

gravity is calculated at 9.8m/s^2, or 32.15ft/s^2

Imperial units are arbitrary, where SI units are standardized.

good example, a meter is how long it takes for light to travel in 1/299 792 458 of a second.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
said by BonezX:

i love when people apply Imperial theory to SI units, it just makes my day.
an LB is a force

Actually a lb is a unit for MASS not for force.
1lb is defined as 0.45359237 kilograms.
said by BonezX:

Imperial units are arbitrary, where SI units are standardized.

They are not arbitrary at all. Not any more than SI units. There is a strong, well-defined relationship between imperial and SI units.