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Comments on news posted 2012-11-14 10:21:53: AT&T broadband users continue to claim there's something not quite right about the way AT&T calculates data usage for their capped DSL and U-Verse users. ..

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Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to plencnerb

Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....

One difference is that you are measuring it from YOUR side of the modem and I think this is part of hte problem.

If they add something like this and then only track the LAN side of their modem they will not measure all the crap passed from the modem. However, they also wont be able to filter out crap that is "firewalled" if a customer is just using their modem in bridge mode.

Their issue is: they should not be measuring overhead and they should not be measuring stuff that is being blocked by the firewall.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to cowboyro

Re: Weights and measures

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole.

maubs

join:2010-02-26
Farmington, IL
Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest
reply to elray

Re: Who is being charged?

I've had to pay overages twice now on my 150GB cap for a 6Mb DSL connection. As cord-cutters, we rely heavily on Netflix, Hulu and even stream from the BBC and ITV.
AT&T doesn't offer UVerse anywhere near my part of the state, so the cap doesn't even serve to protect their revenue for a TV subscription.
I have a wireless router that supports DD-WRT, so I'm thinking about installing that in order to measure the usage on my own.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to InvalidError

Re: 1GB =1000mb

said by InvalidError:

said by 88615298:

WRONG. OK first B is BYTES and b is BITS So no 1000 megaBITS does not equal 1 gigaBYTE. 1000 megaBITS =125 megaBYTES

Also it's 1024 MB = 1 GB

The K/M/G/etc. prefixes are defined in the SI measurement system and officially recognizes only the powers-of-1000 definitions. The powers-of-1024 definitions are technically an abuse by computer science circles, albeit a widely used one for convenience's sake and it has landed companies into courts several times over the years.

The Ki/Mi/Gi prefixes were created to resolve this ambiguity but most people still choose to continue abusing the SI prefixes instead.

Well at&t and other ISPs might do it differently but Verizon Wireless website makes it clear.

1 MB = 1,024 KB
1 GB = 1,024 MB

»www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/spla···opup.jsp

So having one company measure data one way and another measure it another way is asking for trouble.

Petermjjh

join:2005-04-03
Bloomfield Hills, MI
reply to 88615298

Re: 50Mb vs 105Mb technical/install differences?

Nope a kilogram is a kilogram no matter what.

However acceleration due to gravity is different on the moon than on Earth. You are thinking of weight which is measured in Kg m/s2, or a Newton (N).

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to cowboyro

Re: Weights and measures

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

A kilogram may be a kilogram and a liter may be a liter but the calibration of measurement instruments can drift over time due to temperature, humidity, wear, aging, corrosion, contamination, etc.

This is why physical quantity measurement equipment needs to be periodically inspected and calibrated.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to 88615298

Re: 1GB =1000mb

said by 88615298:

Well at&t and other ISPs might do it differently but Verizon Wireless website makes it clear.

The metric/SI prefixes are an international standard and the only internationally recognized legal definition is powers of 1000.

Just because Verizon has decided to perpetuate the incorrect definitions does not make it right.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to cybercrim

Re: hey att

said by cybercrim :

ads and spyware add up to the cap too and if you leave your modem on 24/7 and if you use vonage it goes to the cap

ads don't add up to that much unless the cap is ridiculously low. spyware? That's on YOU to prevent that.

Vonage? You'd have to talk over 25 hours to use 1 GB.

darkcrucible

join:2007-06-07
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to 88615298

Re: Weights and measures

This is not correct. A kilogram is a measurement of mass. That is, how much stuff there is in something. A kilogram of carbon will still be a kilogram on the moon, the north pole or anywhere else. What you're thinking of is weight which is not the same as mass.

For example, there are 6.03x10^23 atoms of carbon in 12 grams of carbon. Just because you take that carbon to the moon doesn't suddenly mean there are 1.005x10^23 atoms of carbon (2 gram of C).


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to InvalidError

Re: 1GB =1000mb

said by InvalidError:

said by 88615298:

Well at&t and other ISPs might do it differently but Verizon Wireless website makes it clear.

The metric/SI prefixes are an international standard and the only internationally recognized legal definition is powers of 1000.

Just because Verizon has decided to perpetuate the incorrect definitions does not make it right.

If Verizon's overages are based on the "incorrect" formula it certainly makes it right when calculating my bill.

I don't care what you say it's 1024 and any ISP charging overages based on 1000 will get sued and lose.


sirwoogie
Blah
Premium
join:2002-01-02
Carleton, MI
reply to NormanS

Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headers

BS. I've re-read the ToS, and nowhere does it mention this "sync" speed you say I didn't bother to see. Go look for yourself:

»www.att.com/shop/internet/att-in···ice.html

Also highlighted here: »www.att.net/speedtiers the information for AT&T High Speed Internet Pro states: Downstream Speed Range 1.56 Mbps - 3.0 Mbps

Seems a little disingenuous to state the speed range is max of 3.0Mbps when in fact you can NEVER reach that, no matter what the traffic profile is. Stepping into my wayback machine... when I had DSL back in the day of SBC, they over-provisioned speed (and in fact stated this in the documentation to avoid confusion) so you could get the advertised rate.

ATT does this crap so they can get away with less while making the customer pay for more, while advertising it as if said customer could actually achieve it. The meter working on this principle is also just another stab in the back and nothing more than a money grab, especially for those of us with no other choice for wired Internet.

en103

join:2011-05-02
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to maubs

Re: Who is being charged?

As the user shows - ~20% extra - I'd expect the same.
AT&T uses ATM for packets on DSL (including Uverse), which adds ~18%.

»www.clock.org/~fair/opinion/atm-is-bad.html
»blog.ioshints.info/2009/03/adsl-···ead.html

tkdslr

join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
reply to JT01

Re: DSL Metering

Looks like Do At&T is measuring some other aDSL user...


You might try an experiment and expand the power down hours.. see if you can determine the actual cutoff times(GMT,EST,CST,PST,if there are any).. Do some measured experiments.. like download exactly 100 MB in the middle of shutoff period.. 200MB, etc..


Document everything..
If AT&T starts charging you extra..


File a complaint with the FTC after they've received a fair number of complaints...


The FTC will sue "AT&T" for "unfair or deceptive trade practices"





TelecomEng

@rr.com
reply to Kearnstd

Re: Hmm...

said by Kearnstd:

I do have to wonder, why did computer science go with divisions of 8?

as in why was a byte not engineered as 10bits.

Because of the binary nature of computer equipment, everything is based on powers of a bit (binary digit). 10 doesn't fall on a whole bit-length, with the closest whole bit-lengths being 3 (for decimal 7, yielding 8 zero-referenced decimal values) or 4 (for decimal 15, yielding 16 zero-referenced decimal values).

elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
reply to maubs

Re: Who is being charged?

Sounds like you haven't disputed the charges.
Not that you should have to.
Sad to hear that they're actually billing now.

Is there a reason you're with AT&T and not one of their resellers?

Have you priced a business connection?

steelyken

join:2002-03-04
Plainfield, IN
reply to maubs
See if you can get dslextreme. First letter I got from AT&T started me looking for alternatives and that is where I switched. Price is lower and no caps.

maubs

join:2010-02-26
Farmington, IL
Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest
DSL Extreme is an option, and I have contacted them, but AT&T will only tell the reseller that the line is capable of 3Mb. Also, I'd have to keep the land line I'm only paying for to get better than a 768Kb connection.
Also looked into a business connection - they want to see a yellow pages listing for my business in order to qualify.

steelyken

join:2002-03-04
Plainfield, IN
I had 6 with AT&T and still have 6 with dslextreme, so that is a shame with your connection.

rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to Kearnstd

Re: Hmm...

Early engineers needed to represent the alphabet (upper/lower case), 10 digits, various common symbols (+-/"%$...) and control characters. This required 7 bits and it was the birth of the ASCII character set. An 8th bit was added for parity error correction. Anything more than this was wasteful and in those early days, core memory was ridiculously expensive and in very short supply.

Binary coded decimal (BCD) also requires multiples of four. Even though four bits can hold 16 values, only 10 of the 16 possible values is needed to represent a digit in BCD. However, since 3 bits can only represent 8 unique values, four bits with a bit of waste is necessary. (This is also called packed decimal.)


koitsu
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
reply to TelecomEng
I took what Kearnstd See Profile to mean why didn't we go with bit lengths that were a different size rather than 8. Meaning, what's special about the value of 8? Why must a byte range from 0-255 rather than, say, 0-63 (6-bit), 0-1023 (10-bit), or even something strange like 0-8191 (13-bit)?

There are architectures (old and present-day) which define a byte as something other than 8 bits. The examples I've seen cited are the Intel 4004 (1 byte = 4 bits), PDP-8 (1 byte = 12 bits), PDP-10 (byte length in bits was variable, from 1 to 36), and present-day DSPs (which often just use the term "word", where a single word can represent something like 60-bits).
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer.

rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to TelecomEng
I was about ready to answer that way too but then I read his posts again and thought about it more. Why couldn't a character have originally been defined as 10 bits? Perhaps it's because 10-bit boundaries would have been really wacky and inefficient in terms of an address controller?

gkloepfer
Premium
join:2012-07-21
Austin, TX
reply to Kearnstd
The most likely reason for 8 bit bytes was because a decimal digit could be represented by 4 bits (a "nybble" or "nibble" as it was called). It probably made sense to increase the data bus size in increments of 4 bits. Early processors even had special instructions to deal with decimal arithmetic as to avoid having to convert an 8-bit binary number to up to 3 groups of 4 bits (which was generally displayed using a hardware decoder onto a 7 segment display).

The first large minicomputer I used (PDP-10/PDP-20) had a 36 bit "word" (data size) which likewise gives heartburn to those who write emulators on modern hardware that is more geared toward 32 bits and multiples of that.

In any case, increasing the widths by powers of 2 have some special advantages at the machine level over other sizes, which is the most likely reason they chose 8 over 10 bits as the size of a byte.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to plencnerb

Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....

said by plencnerb:

To me, the same rules of development and testing come in place here. Either code the meters to work, or don't put them into use. Its that's simple.

Ditto for voting machines. But I digress.
We now take you back to our regularly scheduled "overcharging for bits & bytes" discussion.


cowboyro
Premium
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
reply to 88615298

Re: Weights and measures

said by 88615298:

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole.

The mass is a property of an object. It does not change.(*)
Weight on the other side is the force exerted by gravitation. We conveniently refer to mass as weight as on Earth the difference is negligible for most practical purposes. We are actually measuring the weight force and translating into "the mass that produces the weight on Earth".
-----
(*)exception for objects that absorb or release energy in nuclear fusion or fission reactions.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to 88615298
said by 88615298:

said by cowboyro:

No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter.

Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.

Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole.

??
You're confusing lbs with KG, kg's don't change as a result of gravity.

Data is completely different. Data is simply a count. Like, I have 3 apples. All of our measuring devices are subject to physical variations such as temperatures, pressures etc. The units are also defined by substances, for instance, 1 KG is 1 L of water. 1 L doesn't change based on external forces, but the amount of water contained within that space sure does hence the definition of 1 KG being 1 L / water needs contraints on the variables that affect it.

Data is simply a count. I transfered 3 apples, either you did or you didn't, there are no external forces that change that count. it's either right or it's wrong


DanielWestt

@mycingular.net
reply to steelyken

Re: Who is being charged?

I have been charged all but 2 months this year with my dry dsl 6mb connection. And for dslextreme, when called them to get service you have to have a phone line. Which adds 20 plus dollars to the overall price.

And to the " not a revenue stream", my local cable isp(cableone), charges 50 cents per gig over there 50gig a month cap, 100 gigs with bundle.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to 88615298

Re: 1GB =1000mb

said by 88615298:

I don't care what you say it's 1024 and any ISP charging overages based on 1000 will get sued and lose.

Unless the carrier explicitly defined their 1MB as 1024KB, the proper SI definition applies.

Even in the Seagate and Western Digital cases which are the most famous disputes of that nature, both manufacturers claimed using SI definition is standard practice and both class actions were settled with neither company admitting any wrongdoing.

If HDD manufacturers had been willing to go all the way, they would probably have prevailed but that would have cost them more in legal fees and bad publicity than settling.

If the class actions were convinced they would win, they would not have accepted to settle without some form of apology other than software or small refund almost nobody will bother to claim.


koolman2
Premium
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK
reply to prairiesky

Re: Weights and measures

Pounds and grams both measure the same thing: mass. 5 kg = 11.023 lbs on Earth as well as the moon.


dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to sirwoogie

Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headers

That's a real shame. The fattening of the packet is within their own network. The data into and out of their network is the smaller unpackaged data. How can they charge you for the size of the data in their network!? That's like sending a letter to someone and being charged for the weight of the airplane if flew in.
--
dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16


dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus

join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
kudos:1
reply to InvalidError

Re: 1GB =1000mb

but 1MB = 1024KB is illogical. Only a lawyer can appreciate that.