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arandomguy to koolman2
Anon
2012-Nov-14 5:28 pm
to koolman2
Re: Weights and measuresNope. Grams and their variants are a measure of the amount of mass an object has. Pounds is a measure of the force of gravity over an object. An object will weigh less on the moon, but will still have the same mass. Does no one take science class these days? |
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to koolman2
there is a mass pound, but the general term lb/pound refers to a weight, which is a force not a mass. Because the mass pound and the force pound (weight) are so closely labeled, Grams are much preferred for use of mass. |
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to elray
Re: Who is being charged?said by elray:Wired caps are an inexpensive tool to influence behavior, not create additional revenue. Yeah, for sure. |
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NO to ESPN
Anon
2012-Nov-14 4:41 pm
What is the Actual Intent?Sounds criminal to me as this will be potentially used to defraud people. |
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to prairiesky
Re: Weights and measuressaid by prairiesky:there is a mass pound, but the general term lb/pound refers to a weight, which is a force not a mass. No they are not. lbs are imperial units for mass, kilograms are [SI] units for mass. |
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maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
maartena
Premium Member
2012-Nov-14 5:17 pm
Usage based billing should be closely monitored.Any company that bills it's customers by a certain amount used or acquired, is subject to independent agencies and/or state officials checking up on them to make sure they have accurate metering.
Examples:
- Your water, gas, or electricity meter at your home. - The scale at the local supermarket. - The pump at the gas station. - Your phone bill minutes/seconds used.
These things have all been measured for sometimes centuries. Weights in shops were checked way back to the middle ages when city officials would just show up to a shop and compare the shopkeeper's weights to the official weights of the city.
Phone companies used to use an inaudible pulse that would click 10 times a minute with billing intervals for every 6 seconds.
Accurate gas, electricity and water metering has been around for many, MANY decades.
Gas pumps have been pretty precise since the 1920's, back when they even had visible glass tops where they would first fill a big glass bowl to a certain level which had gallon marking on it.
Everything that is paid for per amount used or per amount purchased.... has been scrutinized over the ages to ensure customers aren't getting ripped off.
With so many reports of 20, 30, sometimes more percent difference between what AT&T wants to charge you versus what actually came in (and went out) of your home, they too should be closely monitored and their meters should be tested and proven accurate before they can charge customers. |
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NOCTech75 Premium Member join:2009-06-29 Marietta, GA |
to rradina
Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....said by rradina:I'm not defending HSI metering but the electric company is an allowed monopoly. So are many HSI companies. |
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maartenaElmo Premium Member join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA |
to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:One difference is that you are measuring it from YOUR side of the modem and I think this is part of hte problem.
If they add something like this and then only track the LAN side of their modem they will not measure all the crap passed from the modem. However, they also wont be able to filter out crap that is "firewalled" if a customer is just using their modem in bridge mode.
Their issue is: they should not be measuring overhead and they should not be measuring stuff that is being blocked by the firewall. In a setup where you have 1 LAN port active, no wireless on your gateway, and all traffic to/from the internet passes that 1 LAN port to your own wireless gateway... THAT should be the traffic you should be charged for, after all THAT is the traffic you requested. If the Gateway receives 20% more information than you actually requested due to overhead, packet drops and firewall blocks.... you are talking some serious money. What about DDOS attacks? Failed downloads that can't be resumed? If a malicious user plotting against you would send you continues data for a month at the rate of 1 Mbps.... you wouldn't even notice it, and probably AT&T would either.... but you would be downloading about 20 GB a day that way. That racks up a huge bill at the end of the month without you requesting ANY of that data. And with the U-verse interleaving.... how much of a percentage of packets are lost just to make sure you get a good data rate? |
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maartena |
to elray
Re: Who is being charged?said by elray:For all the populist ranting we read here nearly every week, has anyone actually been assessed an overage charge and had to pay it, or been disconnected?
Wired caps are an inexpensive tool to influence behavior, not create additional revenue. Telco knows well how inaccurate they are. It doesn't matter.
They will be unenforced in the interim, and will go away when "network neutrality" nonsense fades from view.
But if you all push hard enough, who knows, maybe we'll have a national modem standard that includes federally certified usage metering.
Be very careful what you wish for. My Electricity bill has a $8 base fee, which means that if I use *nothing at all* I still pay a $8 bill. Gas and water have similar fees. They are kept low for a reason.... they are just there to make sure you have a line, a pipe, etc, and the line and/or pipe works. I would have NO problem whatsoever to pay $10 for a pipe with an IP address, and ALL data being charged at the rate AT&T uses. $10 for 50 GB, pro-rated would be $0.20 per GB, With a $10 base fee, my bill would be LESS if I only use 100 GB that month, and it would be MORE if I use more than 250 GB that month. I say let them classify Internet as a utility, and implement a flat base rate for the un-used connection, and then charge for using it. But again: It needs to be measured CORRECTLY. If the water pipe BEFORE it gets to my house leaks, I am not paying for that water as it hasn't past my meter yet. The way AT&T is measuring now, that water would be counted. |
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rradina join:2000-08-08 Chesterfield, MO |
to NOCTech75
Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....The video portion of their business, yes. But I was pretty sure the HSI is unregulated, isn't it? |
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2 Zoom 5341J
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KrK
Premium Member
2012-Nov-14 6:16 pm
Now that they include anti-class action language...In the service contracts, they know they have nothing to fear.
They can overcharge at will and know that the only recourse someone would have would be a lawsuit of their own which they could stonewall till the end of time.
This goes hand in hand with the article about lost subscriptions listed above. Despite the "Rosy Competition, let the market settle it" official propaganda that Telco and Cable put out, they know that in reality there's little choice and they have little to fear from *most* customers just leaving for good.
It's much more profitable to overcharge the entire base and not worry about the few who will leave permanently (Cord cutters.)
At least, right now it is.
... And I'm sure if cord cutting ever becomes a legitimate threat they'll call up Congress and pass more abusive copyright laws to try and force people to stay..... |
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NetFixerFrom My Cold Dead Hands Premium Member join:2004-06-24 The Boro Netgear CM500 Pace 5268AC TRENDnet TEW-829DRU
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to dnoyeB
Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headerssaid by dnoyeB:That's a real shame. The fattening of the packet is within their own network. The data into and out of their network is the smaller unpackaged data. How can they charge you for the size of the data in their network!? That's like sending a letter to someone and being charged for the weight of the airplane if flew in. Actually it is more analogous to including the weight of both the letter and the envelope (and even the weight of the postage stamp), which is how the USPS actually measures the weight of letters. So AT&T's method is actually based on a very commonly accepted use of paying for transportation of both the message and the envelope. I am not a big fan of AT&T or their business practices, but in this case they are following a commonly accepted method of measurement for charging for the transportation of information (and I have no doubt that AT&T's shysters and bean counters have taken that commonly accepted measurement method into consideration). |
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NOCTech75 Premium Member join:2009-06-29 Marietta, GA |
to rradina
Re: If ISPs are gonna do meters....said by rradina:The video portion of their business, yes. But I was pretty sure the HSI is unregulated, isn't it? For many Americans they can only get 1 or the other.. DSL or Cable hence creating a monopoly. |
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NetFixerFrom My Cold Dead Hands Premium Member join:2004-06-24 The Boro Netgear CM500 Pace 5268AC TRENDnet TEW-829DRU
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to en103
Re: DSL - ATM overheadAnd the USPS charges you for the weight of both the letter itself and the weight of the envelope in which the letter is packaged. This is a commonly accepted method of charging for the cost of sending information. Why should AT&T not use the same method of measurement that works so well for the USPS? |
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BiggA Premium Member join:2005-11-23 Central CT |
BiggA
Premium Member
2012-Nov-14 7:00 pm
They should have to be independently auditedIn order to charge for things like that. I'd like to see it done on the wireless side as well, where it seems to me that their metering is erratic, as it usually doesn't match my local metering (although not always in the same direction). |
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elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA |
to maartena
Re: Who is being charged?said by maartena:My Electricity bill has a $8 base fee, which means that if I use *nothing at all* I still pay a $8 bill. Gas and water have similar fees. They are kept low for a reason.... they are just there to make sure you have a line, a pipe, etc, and the line and/or pipe works.
I would have NO problem whatsoever to pay $10 for a pipe with an IP address, and ALL data being charged at the rate AT&T uses.
$10 for 50 GB, pro-rated would be $0.20 per GB, With a $10 base fee, my bill would be LESS if I only use 100 GB that month, and it would be MORE if I use more than 250 GB that month.
I say let them classify Internet as a utility, and implement a flat base rate for the un-used connection, and then charge for using it.
But again: It needs to be measured CORRECTLY. If the water pipe BEFORE it gets to my house leaks, I am not paying for that water as it hasn't past my meter yet. The way AT&T is measuring now, that water would be counted. You've just made the case for measured service. Indeed, a lot of people would save a lot of money this way, and I would welcome it with a UL-listed meter. Trouble is, those here who would cry out for regulatory intervention would welcome a government-approved meter, which would have all sorts of Big-Brother functions you probably don't want, and of course, will incur a minimum AND usage-based tax. |
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hyphenated to JT01
Anon
2012-Nov-14 8:19 pm
to JT01
Re: DSL MeteringMaybe it doesn't compile the stats until later times. Either way at the end of the month it should be close. If you knew exactly when their timer starts you could compare (not what the bill says but the real timer).
I think caps will be enforced and lowered (how much idk?) once the speed issue is addressed. Maybe even total usage based if they can get something standard. Nothing will calculate it the same but i don't think it should be off GBs. Idk maybe it would if its a week off.
AT&T cell phones will tell you that by calling *DATA# |
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1 edit |
to 88615298
Re: Weights and measuressaid by 88615298:Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon.
Also technically gravity is slightly stronger at the north pole so a kilogram at the equator would be slightly more than a kilogram at the north pole. You don't even know the first grade definition of mass.... |
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BonezXBasement Dweller Premium Member join:2004-04-13 Canada 2 edits |
to 88615298
said by 88615298:said by cowboyro:No they don't. A kilogram is a kilogram, whether on the Earth at the North Pole or on the bright side of the moon. Same for a meter, same for a liter. Actually the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth so a kilogram on Earth would be 1/6 kilogram on the moon. i love when people apply Imperial theory to SI units, it just makes my day. an LB is a force(F=M*A), not a mass, weight is a measurement of force, a slug is a mass not a force a Newton is a force, not a mass, a kg is a mass not a force. gravity is calculated at 9.8m/s^2, or 32.15ft/s^2 Imperial units are arbitrary, where SI units are standardized. good example, a meter is how long it takes for light to travel in 1/299 792 458 of a second. |
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cowboyro
Premium Member
2012-Nov-14 10:25 pm
said by BonezX:i love when people apply Imperial theory to SI units, it just makes my day. an LB is a force Actually a lb is a unit for MASS not for force. 1lb is defined as 0.45359237 kilograms. said by BonezX:Imperial units are arbitrary, where SI units are standardized. They are not arbitrary at all. Not any more than SI units. There is a strong, well-defined relationship between imperial and SI units. |
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mackey Premium Member join:2007-08-20 |
to NetFixer
Re: DSL - ATM overheadBecause although the "letter" is already in an envelope (IP encapsulated), AT&T decides they want to stuff it into another package, a package they will also remove before delivering, and charge you for the weight of your letter + their packaging.
The USPS charges you for the weight of the letter (and envelope) as received and delivered, not the weight of the letter (and envelope) plus the weight of whatever they feel like cramming it in.
/M |
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NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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to sirwoogie
Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headerssaid by sirwoogie:BS. I've re-read the ToS, and nowhere does it mention this "sync" speed you say I didn't bother to see. Go look for yourself ... I see it has changed since I last read the ToS. However, there is this in that linked document: quote: Service Capability Speeds should not be confused with Throughput Speed, which is the speed at which your modem receives and sends Internet access data (Throughput Speed).
Which is pretty much what I read before the changes. (Except that the old ToS explicitly mentioned "sync" speed.) ... when I had DSL back in the day of SBC, they over-provisioned speed (and in fact stated this in the documentation to avoid confusion) so you could get the advertised rate. SBC never "overprovisioned" their service for as long as I had it; February 17, 2001 to some time in April, 2011. I started on 1536/128, which is what my modem synced at from day one of service. |
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2 edits |
to cowboyro
Re: Weights and measuresThe term pound can refer to a mass or a force. The unqualified term "pound" is ambiguous.
If one wishes to be unambiguous you can refer to either a pound-mass or pound-force.
Or just use the SI units since they are designed to be unambiguous. |
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cowboyro
Premium Member
2012-Nov-14 10:58 pm
said by DataRiker:Since the term pound is unqualified it can refer to a mass or a force. The term pound denotes a mass (when we are talking about "weights"). The pound-force term denotes the gravitational force exerted by a 1lb mass on Earth. |
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DataRiker
Premium Member
2012-Nov-14 11:10 pm
Weight is a force, so if your going to use some subjective context for reference (which is unwise) lb force would be more fitting.
Since neither of you used "pound-force" [lbf] or "pound-mass" [lbm], any argument that one definition is more correct than the other is extremely silly.
The unqualified "pound" should never ever be used in anything but the most informal oral conversations.
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NetFixerFrom My Cold Dead Hands Premium Member join:2004-06-24 The Boro Netgear CM500 Pace 5268AC TRENDnet TEW-829DRU
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to NormanS
Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headerssaid by NormanS:said by sirwoogie:... when I had DSL back in the day of SBC, they over-provisioned speed (and in fact stated this in the documentation to avoid confusion) so you could get the advertised rate. SBC never "overprovisioned" their service for as long as I had it; February 17, 2001 to some time in April, 2011. I started on 1536/128, which is what my modem synced at from day one of service. I think that sirwoogie is confusing SBC with BellSouth. BellSouth did over provision their 3 mbps and 6 mbps aDSL service (but they under provisioned their 1.5 mbps service). |
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cork1958Cork Premium Member join:2000-02-26 |
to JT01
Re: DSL Meteringsaid by JT01:I am an ATT DSL customer in Michigan. After seeing numerous posts about the inaccuracy of ATT's metering method, I decided to run my own experiment. I turned off my modem at 11:30 PM on October 19, 2012 and turned it back on at 12:30 AM on October 21, so the modem was completely off for the entire day of October 20. Despite the impossibility of usage during this period, ATT says I used 340 meg down and 30 meg up for October 20. Maybe the metering is in another time zone, but draw your own conclusions. You're kidding, right? There are days I'm on the computer all day just doing general stuff and don't use that much bandwidth!! Here's my usage from last 4 days when router was last rebooted. |
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to mackey
Re: DSL - ATM overheadsaid by mackey:Because although the "letter" is already in an envelope (IP encapsulated), AT&T decides they want to stuff it into another package, a package they will also remove before delivering, and charge you for the weight of your letter + their packaging.
The USPS charges you for the weight of the letter (and envelope) as received and delivered, not the weight of the letter (and envelope) plus the weight of whatever they feel like cramming it in.
/M Exactly. |
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BonezXBasement Dweller Premium Member join:2004-04-13 Canada |
to cowboyro
Re: Weights and measuressaid by cowboyro:said by DataRiker:Since the term pound is unqualified it can refer to a mass or a force. The term pound denotes a mass (when we are talking about "weights"). The pound-force term denotes the gravitational force exerted by a 1lb mass on Earth. LB is a measurement of force(weight is called the normal force of an object fyi), the imperial measurement of mass is the slug. |
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dnoyeBFerrous Phallus join:2000-10-09 Southfield, MI |
to NetFixer
Re: for classic ADSL, they count all the headersI don't agree. The envelope is under my control. It is not an add-on by the post office. it does not get bigger or smaller based on the POs technology. What I can't control is the size of the trucks and trains and planes the post office decides to use. I should not be charged for things outside of my control. I don't think that is standard practice. |
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