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Comments on news posted 2012-11-20 12:29:37: Because the rapid, massive and unprecedented existing expansion of government surveillance powers over the last decade apparently wasn't significant enough, a new rewrite of a Senate bill will allow additional warrantless surveillance of citizen e-ma.. ..

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Robert
Premium Member
join:2001-08-25
Miami, FL

Robert

Premium Member

Freedom vs. Security

I can understand the need for law enforcement and national security agencies to have the ability to monitor the flow of e-mail communications to protect Americans (and to an extend, the world) of pending attacks.

However, I am cannot understand, nor fathom, how any politician, or any individual, feels that eroding our rights to privacy is somehow far more important than the security of this nation.

While we may "win" on the forefront of fighting terrorism, we will certainly have lost the right to freedom.

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

1 recommendation

NOCTech75

Premium Member

And what terrorism attacks are we stopping? We sure as hell didn't stop the one in Libya.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

1 recommendation

ke4pym

Premium Member

Ugh

Democrat Patrick Leahy is just full of s***. That is all.

Wish he'd get voted out.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to Robert

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to Robert

Re: Freedom vs. Security

And if they need to get that data what was so wrong with requiring a warrant as we once did?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to Robert

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to Robert
The suggested law does not require warrants in many cases. But it still requires a subpoena in all cases. Getting a subpoena is less rigorous to obtain than a warrant, but it still needs an OK from the investigating department, leaving a paper trail. It is just much easier to get.

»news.cnet.com/8301-13578 ··· arrants/

Grants warrantless access to Americans' electronic correspondence to over 22 federal agencies. Only a subpoena is required, not a search warrant signed by a judge based on probable cause.

I really don't have a problem with getting info for FBI, Homeland Security, etc to investigate. But for the life of me I can't see any reason to include all these other Federal agencies in the law.
FFH5

FFH5 to NOCTech75

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to NOCTech75
said by NOCTech75:

And what terrorism attacks are we stopping? We sure as hell didn't stop the one in Libya.

That had nothing to do with getting or having the needed info. That was just the usual government political operatives failing to act on info for political reasons.

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

1 recommendation

NOCTech75

Premium Member

said by FFH5:

said by NOCTech75:

And what terrorism attacks are we stopping? We sure as hell didn't stop the one in Libya.

That had nothing to do with getting or having the needed info. That was just the usual government political operatives failing to act on info for political reasons.

Right, which means they need none of this information since they won't act based on the political wind blowing.

Robert
Premium Member
join:2001-08-25
Miami, FL

Robert to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

But for the life of me I can't see any reason to include all these other Federal agencies in the law.

That is, aside from everything else, the biggest issue. When you start involving multiple agencies, you're destined to run into abuse.
Os
join:2011-01-26
US

Os

Member

Land of the Free.....

.....I don't think this is what they meant.

Mephisto13
join:2008-05-16
Gatineau, QC

1 recommendation

Mephisto13 to Robert

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to Robert

Re: Freedom vs. Security

said by Robert:

However, I am cannot understand, nor fathom, how any politician, or any individual, feels that eroding our rights to privacy is somehow far more important than the security of this nation.

Whoever thinks that the government is doing this for "security" purposes, tell them to contact me, I have some prime swampland to sell them.

That's the excuse they are using to induce fear and paranoia in the populace so that they don't feel bad when their privacy rights are being infringed upon, to make them feel better so they can tell themselves "It will make me safer!" to this blatant invasion of privacy. In reality it has nothing to do with "security", but control.

And once you give it up, it's hard as hell to get it back. That's even if you will ever get it back. Whoever doesn't fight this tooth and nail doesn't understand the future repercussions that this will cause.

Can you say dystopia?

That is, unless you trust your government to use these powers justly without oversight. In which case, ever think about buying some prime swampland?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

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to ke4pym

Re: Ugh

said by ke4pym:

Democrat Patrick Leahy is just full of s***. That is all.

Wish he'd get voted out.

Agreed... another poster child for congressional term limits.

What do a bunch of people who have been in Congress for a million years know about the real world?

Dominokat
"Hi"
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join:2002-08-06
Boothbay, ME

1 recommendation

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to NOCTech75

Re: Freedom vs. Security

They are using "terrorism" as a cover up for the excuse to take away our freedoms and spy on us. Heaven forbid we use the wrong combination of words and then BANG! Have the NSA or Secret Service on your door.

Welcome to America, land of the (kind of) free.

I never felt this way before, but the more I keep reading about what is going on with our online information being more and more hand delivered to the NSA, etc... I can't help but feel this way.

We ARE free (for now) as long as we don't post anything on the internet, email, Facebook, Twitter..... all the stuff people are now using.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD

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said by FFH5:

That had nothing to do with getting or having the needed info. That was just the usual government political operatives failing to act on info for political reasons.

If government cannot even be bothered to do its expected job correctly with the powers that it has then it should absolutely not be entrusted with expanded powers.

The government can do what anyone else must if they wish to read someone's private correspondence, go to a judge and make the case for needing to do so.

nonamesleft
join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

nonamesleft to pnh102

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Re: Ugh

said by pnh102:

said by ke4pym:

Democrat Patrick Leahy is just full of s***. That is all.

Wish he'd get voted out.

Agreed... another poster child for congressional term limits.

What do a bunch of people who have been in Congress for a million years know about the real world?

Glad I am not the only one that noticed. Patrick leahy is always the first to churn out this type of crap, just look at the patriot act renewals, his name is always sponsoring the bill or act. Hope he gets voted out SOON!

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

said by nonamesleft:

[Hope he gets voted out SOON!

He won't, and that's the problem. The rest of us in 49 states who cannot stand this guy have no power to vote him out.

And the same goes for some long-tenured GOP politicians too.
pnh102

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to Dominokat

Re: Freedom vs. Security

said by Dominokat:

They are using "terrorism" as a cover up for the excuse to take away our freedoms and spy on us. Heaven forbid we use the wrong combination of words and then BANG! Have the NSA or Secret Service on your door.

Exactly.

There will be absolutely no good that comes out of this bill.

How many terrorists you think will use email in the open as a means of communications once this gets in? Zero. There are plenty of far more secure ways to communicate.

Like with nearly every other tactic used in homefront on the War on Terror, only the innocent people are the ones inconvenienced by these things.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

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The government would have to actually present a case then. I get the feeling that letter agencies like to work behind closed doors with maximum privacy and freedom erosion in place.
Os
join:2011-01-26
US

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While I agree, your Republicans started this mess.

The only way you start fixing the problem is voting against both of the entrenched parties.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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said by Os:

While I agree, your Republicans started this mess.

If you are talking about the USA PATRIOT Act, then please consider that the core of it was proposed by Joe Biden after the OKC Bombing in 1995.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po ··· security

I agree that neither party is a saint on personal freedom issues, but to blame one and ignore the other is wrong to do.
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom

Member

Encryption

About time that email was encrypted.
Os
join:2011-01-26
US

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to pnh102

Re: Freedom vs. Security

And the Patriot Act received 1 vote against it in the Senate (from Russ Feingold of Wisconsin). Vote them all out.

I'm saying it's inconsistent to support personal freedom and vote for either of them. You had a line about Mitt Romney in your signature. I'm proud to say I voted for neither of the major candidates, and this was a major reason.

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

1 recommendation

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to Os
said by Os:

While I agree, your Republicans started this mess.

And your Democrats have done nothing to change this mess and in fact have made it increase in scope just as much.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Leahy denies some of what CNet claimed in their news item

»thehill.com/blogs/hillic ··· searches

A Judiciary Committee aide denied on Tuesday that Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) supports legislation that would allow government agencies to read emails, Facebook messages and other forms of electronic communication without a warrant.

CNET, a technology news site, reported on Tuesday that Leahy was backing a bill that would allow more than 22 federal agencies to read private emails without a warrant.

"CNET has it wrong," an aide tweeted from Leahy's account. "Sen. Leahy does NOT support an #ECPA exception to search warrant requirement [for] civil enforcement [for agencies] like FTC, SEC."

Evidently he is not denying support of some changes, just not everything CNet says he supports.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102 to Os

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Re: Freedom vs. Security

said by Os:

I'm saying it's inconsistent to support personal freedom and vote for either of them. You had a line about Mitt Romney in your signature. I'm proud to say I voted for neither of the major candidates, and this was a major reason.

The reason of course was because voting for an idealistic third party candidate who agrees 100% with my views but who has absolutely no chance of winning has the same net effect as voting for the candidate with whom I disagree with on 99.9999999% of the issues.

If you find my argument specious, then please ask all the people who voted for Ross Perot in 1992 and 1996 how they felt about Bill Clinton winning in those elections. Or look at Florida in 2000. 98k people in that election voted for Ralph Nader. How do you think they felt about Bush winning that state and the Presidency by 537 votes? Even if you blame that on fraud, had all (or even half of) 98k of those people voted for Al Gore, he would have won that state by a comfortable margin.

I'm not going to blame people who voted for third party candidates for Romney losing (3 million or so fewer GOP voters showed up in 2012 than in 2008). But I am simply presenting to you the mathematical reasoning behind my consistently voting the way I do. Perhaps we should change things to allow for instant run-off voting and requiring that the winner of such a contest receive a majority of the votes. But until that happens, I have to accept voting for third party candidates for what it is, a vote for the guy i disagree with the most.
pnh102

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said by NOCTech75:

said by Os:

While I agree, your Republicans started this mess.

And your Democrats have done nothing to change this mess and in fact have made it increase in scope just as much.

And not only that... this is another Democrat proposing this.

Where's the freedom?

cabana
Department of Adjustments
Mod
join:2000-07-07
New York, NY

2 edits

cabana

Mod

So ... will you call your senator? I know I will ...

This goes way beyond the worse case scenario ... this is an all out gutting of any person's right to have any private conversation of any kind online ANYWHERE.

This means that 22 federal agencies ... and INDIVIDUALS (who make up an agency) ... with little or no oversight from the average citizen can do as they would like under any broad umbrella they care to pop open...

and zero notification that your private drawers are being rifled through ... (all on the premise that "they" are looking just in case anything "good" is there) ...

Think about it ... any health issue you may not want public ... that ... private discussion you have with your friend ... family member etc ... that ... financial discussion ... ALL LAWFUL ... and PRIVATE ... not so much.

And think about the professional industry ... attorney client privilege ... your accountant ... your doctor discussing options ...

Care to express your political views privately (and within the scope of the law) ... nope ... not so private ... care to discuss anything beyond the most mundane ... up for grabs ...

And ask yourself this question ... what are the repercussions for abuse by an agency (and anyone that says this will not be abused is living an a very lovely place in their mind)

If only this were an imaginary problem and tin foil were the solution ...

(note: edited for grammar ... just in case the grammar police are looking too)

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

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Re: Leahy denies some of what CNet claimed in their news item

said by FFH5:

Evidently he is not denying support of some changes, just not everything CNet says he supports.

He should withdraw the entire bill then so we don't have to worry about it.
Ghostmaker1
join:2011-07-11
Brunswick, OH

Ghostmaker1

Member

What is the problem here?

Law enforcement would never step across moral bonds and start monitoring all electronic communications now would they?

They already monitor all cell phone traffic...
bejee
join:2007-07-30
Orleans, VT

1 recommendation

bejee

Member

Whoops!!!

Seems like this is another example of: "It's on the internet, it must be true!"

»www.burlingtonfreepress. ··· RONTPAGE

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Leahy gives up and won't submit amendments to bill

The heat got to be too much for Leahy and he has given up on amending the House bill to make it acceptable to law enforcement lobbyists.

»news.cnet.com/8301-13578 ··· ce-bill/
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