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Comments on news posted 2012-12-04 10:11:15: After Time Warner Cable took a public relations beating for pushing low caps and high per byte overages on consumers back in 2009, the company has been stepping very carefully in what is quite obviously their relentless desire to charge consumers bro.. ..

page: 1 · 2
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

It's coming

I can see absolutely no reason for tracking a persons usage ACROSS THE BOARD unless there is an upcoming model change impacting all usage. Today TWC monetizes by having different speed tiers (which doesn't cost them that much more other than traffic shaping and capacity). They have consistently dragged on upload speeds, and now they are changing their basic to 15/1 (the 1 really sucks if you do anything in the cloud). I am now at 50/25. By keeping upload artificially low, they are crippling cloud service penetration (which drives usage), so that is already in place.

I logged into my mothers account (100GB used), and this was the first time I saw it. Granted when I had virgin mobile it would show you how much you used, BUT that was a foreshadow to them setting up the 2.5 GB cap. Amazing...

So this can play out a number of ways:

1. TWC does nothing and introduced ancillary fees: DONE, cable modem vig
2. TWC introduces a "basic" tier with a reasonable cap for say $10 less (maybe 50GB): NOT DONE. The internet essentials was simply a test meant to fail, but consider the actuaries using this data to chart the next step in the master plan....
3. TWC introduces caps and then throttles. Of course the cap is below what the average cord cutter uses, and they know what this is (maybe 70 GB)
4. TWC introduces caps and then upcharges
5. TWC begins somewhat earnest wholesale efforts (this gets around the bundling margin erosion and lowers SGA immensely).
5. TWC introduces caps and then offers "price protection" meaning a bundle of overage that the consumer can "bank"

Now if I were to heat up the water on the frog and boil them, I would progress in the manner I highlight above. Make no mistake however, that this meter introduction in no shape of form is for the benefit of the consumer, but to some scheme they are cooking up to get more revenue to feed the margin decrease in TV due to: SPORTS. Guess what over 50% of your cable bill today comes from this.
Expand your moderator at work
UnnDunn
Premium
join:2005-12-21
Brooklyn, NY

2 edits

Re: It's coming

Two things:

Upload speeds are comparatively low because of the nature of the technology, not because TWC wants to hamstring the usage of cloud services.

And the "frog in gradually boiling water" analogy is invalid. A frog will jump out of the water when it gets too hot. A similar thing will likely happen if TWC moves too far down the path you've outlined; it will get to a point where customers will strongly resist and seek alternatives. Google Fiber is designed to chart a path for those alternatives to follow, making it more likely that they will spring up if TWC leaves an opening.

Right now, the big incumbents have largely avoided disruptive competition through inertia; even though their services are shitty in comparison to those of just about every other developed nation, they haven't actually gotten worse over time. But if they actively degrade their services (as TWC is trying to do) in the face of increasing bandwidth demand from even the least tech-savvy customers, they will create opportunities for disruptive companies to serve the markets TWC won't.

buzz_4_20

join:2003-09-20
Limestone, ME

Re: It's coming

Upload is limited by the tech, but not as much as the end user gets.

The tech (DOCSIS 3.0) limits upload to a bit over 50% of the download speed (per channel).

TW is no where close to that ratio on upload.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: It's coming

In my area TWC has one upload channel funning at 3.2 MHz width, which can transmit at most 15 Mbps (or 10 Mbps based on line noise). They have four downstreams, with a combined download capacity of 152 Mbps before IP overhead. This matches up with the 50/5 plan that I have.

skuv

@rr.com
said by buzz_4_20:

Upload is limited by the tech, but not as much as the end user gets.

The tech (DOCSIS 3.0) limits upload to a bit over 50% of the download speed (per channel).

TW is no where close to that ratio on upload.

A QAM channel, which is what a downstream channel is, is about 38mbit.

Upstream channels are ~10mbit.

DOCSIS 3.0 bonds 8 downstreams and 8 upstreams. That is about ~310mbit down max and ~80mbit up max. A little more than 25%, not close to 50%.

No, the end user doesn't get 25% either, but they won't be getting 50% unless their downstream is limited while their upstream is raised.

TelecomEng

@rr.com

Re: It's coming

said by skuv :

A QAM channel, which is what a downstream channel is, is about 38mbit.

Upstream channels are ~10mbit.

DOCSIS upstreams are 10Mbps only if you use the DOCSIS 1.x upstream modulation profiles. DOCSIS 2 upstream profiles enable ~30Mbps on a 6.4Mhz wide, 64QAM upstream.

»www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk86/tk···27.shtml

djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO

1 recommendation

said by UnnDunn:

A similar thing will likely happen if TWC moves too far down the path you've outlined; it will get to a point where customers will strongly resist and seek alternatives.

What alternatives? Cable is headed towards being a monopoly in a lot of areas as telcos give up on DSL. U-verse is capped and is already maxing out speed wise. Verizon didn't even deploy FiOS in the City of Los Angeles, let alone the rest of the country.

Google Fiber probably won't get deployed in my neighborhood in my lifetime even if they find it viable.
--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.
en103

join:2011-05-02

Re: It's coming

FiOS is available in the SF Valley (North Hills) - which is part of the city of Los Angeles.

djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO

Re: It's coming

said by en103:

FiOS is available in the SF Valley (North Hills) - which is part of the city of Los Angeles.

It's available in parts, but not everywhere. For example, it's not available in Sunland/Tujunga which are also part of the City of Los Angeles.

--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.

antdude
A Matrix Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
United State
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
said by en103:

FiOS is available in the SF Valley (North Hills) - which is part of the city of Los Angeles.

It's available in my L.A. cities, but not in my neighborhood. See thre problem? Just because they are in the cities does not mean in the whole area!

Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
said by UnnDunn:

It will get to a point where customers will strongly resist and seek alternatives.

That is the real problem. There are very few, and some times no, alternatives. If there were alternatives then this wouldn't be happening. Some people in order to change their ISP need to move.
--
“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” ¯ Robert A. Heinlein

aciddrink

join:2000-08-26

Re: It's coming

This is exactly true. In my city, there are only two ISPs. Insight (TWC), or a really crappy DSL provider.

In many areas of the city, the DSL provider has made exclusive contracts with newly built apartment complexes, where those complexes will not and can not run cable lines, thereby forcing residents onto the DSL provider for TV and internet.

This is done because the DSL provider is terrible and would be unable to retain customers if people were given a choice.
cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
Yes and no. There's a technology limit of ~10Mbps per channel. However, there's more truth in simple laziness... the upstream rate had been the same 384K since the tech was introduced in 1995. Only *recently* did they up it to 1M across the board. (various markets' "turbo" has 512 and 768 up, but the basic rate was 384k for over 15 years.) Downstream has seen numerous bumps to "compete" with DSL -- read: on paper, exceed it's speed -- however in every case that boiled down to simply changing a number in a config file. (there's no evidence they've ever put any thought into the effects of increasing the speeds *before* actually doing it.)

Yes, there have been technology upgrades along the way. However they have never been voluntary. Most were vendor pushed -- EOL... we no longer make or support this old junk; buy the new stuff. And in a rare twist, D3 has been a market push -- at first to keep up appearances vs. FiOS, then to have an even product offering across all markets. (That upgrade was expensive... they had to stop shoveling the cash into their pockets for a few months. *whaaa*)

TelecomEng

@rr.com

Re: It's coming

said by cramer:

Yes and no. There's a technology limit of ~10Mbps per channel.

That's risen to rough ~30Mbps / channel with current DOCSIS 2.0 upstream modulation profiles. All but the oldest modems support this technology, but operators have to contend with people who refuse to upgrade and the issues of noise in the plant.
cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9

Re: It's coming

Which is my point. As long as cable operators continue to live in the past (*cough*68 analog channels*cough* -- all of them broadcast in digital as well) and support well outdated hardware (DOCSIS 1.0), the limit is still 10M. Our brand new Arris D3 modem at the office... still uses a single TDMA D1 16QAM upstream channel.
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
Isn't most of the noise due to the frequency of the upstream channels being limited to the very low end of the spectrum where, among many other things, every internal combustion engine spark plug can cause interference? I thought that too had solutions with newer specifications.

blohner

join:2002-06-26
Cortlandt Manor, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Optimum Online
Docsis 3 allows for 8x4 bonding with current modems and can easily provide 100+/15+ mbit/s speeds... As comparison to DSL: if you look to VDSL and ADSL2+ Annex J in Europe you see 2+ Mbit/ upload even on ADLS2+... I put 50% of the blame on the US consumer for not speaking up - or manning up to start another provider... (note: I am in the US and currently on CV Boost+ with 50/8 (in practice 60/8) cable service.. I had FIOS with 150/65 before but it was not worth $100 for me...
As to what others need to pay for service: It's a correlation of suburbaness vs. service... i.e. if I would move to Montana I would save >20,000 USD a year in property tax... any increase along the line of maybe 2,000 USD total ISP fees would still be jump change...
--
I am addicted to speed --- Boost + speed that is ---
Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
said by cramer:

the upstream rate had been the same 384K since the tech was introduced in 1995. Only *recently* did they up it to 1M across the board. (various markets' "turbo" has 512 and 768 up, but the basic rate was 384k for over 15 years.) Downstream has seen numerous bumps to "compete" with DSL -- read: on paper, exceed it's speed -- however in every case that boiled down to simply changing a number in a config file. (there's no evidence they've ever put any thought into the effects of increasing the speeds *before* actually doing it.)

You are wrong. Downstream seldom gets increased. Hawaii will not upgrade Standard tier to 15mbps down until END OF FIRST QUARTER 2013 at the EARLIEST...it wlll probably be much later. They have to move analog TV channels to digital (over much bitching from customers) to free up the bandwidth.

Upstream is a different story. Oceanic TWC has given Road Runner customers 1mbps up for OVER 5 YEARS NOW on STANDARD TIER. Standard tier was 5mpbs down when we got 1mbps up. We got 1mbps up at that time for ONE REASON ONLY: the competition. Hawaiian Telcom had given their users 1mbps up and up to 11mbps down (of course most could not get the latter). They became the fastest ISP in Hawaii and were crowing about it. Oceanic acted fast and matched their 1 mbps up. Unfortunately, dsl is no competition for download speeds so OceanicTWC can take however much time as they wish to upgrade Standard to 15mbps down and to heck with the statement from TWC CEO that ALL divisions would have Standard at 15mbps by end of December. That will happen here only if forced by corporate which, given the last time corporate forced download speed upgrade on Oceanic (from 3mbps to 5mbps) caused the network to collapse for almost a week (including business users), I don't think they will force it.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson
cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9

Re: It's coming

Around here (RDU), the service was introduced at 3/384. Then it went through various "paper" upgrades to 5, 6, 7, 8, and then 10 down. The upstream rate remained 384 all the way to 10 down, when it finally saw an increase to 1M. Now they're moving to 15 down and still 1 up. At this rate, we'll have 100 down and still be 1 up -- actually, you'd have to go to D3 for that which is 50/5 and 30/5 right now, at much higher prices.

Again, around here, the best upstream rate you could hope to get is 512k via ADSL. Not surprisingly, when Uverse became available with it's 1 and 1.5 up, TWC suddenly jumped to 1M up, too. For a long time, they sold downstream rates that were self-throttled by the upstream rate; north of 6M down, the ACKs from multiple TCP connections can saturate a 384k upstream... a single connection can get the full rate, but add more (and most browsers will open up to 4 at a time fetching content for a single page) and it starts to fall apart.

Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

it's unrealistic...

$5 discount to stay under a 25 GB cap and $1 per 5 GB overages sounds more realistic for any speed hard wire plan. so you "break even" at 50 GB, and everything above that is $1 per 5 GB used each Month.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC

Re: it's unrealistic...

Yeah, maybe they could have a $10 off plan where you get no data on your internet. That would be the best value for Time Warner.

Rambo76098

join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH
Unfortunately, its worse. It's $1 for 1 GB, not 5GB.

Bill Neilson
Premium
join:2009-07-08
Arlington, VA

1 recommendation

Has any ISP ever actually explained what they

mean when they say "value"?

We see price hikes and are told it brings "value"?
We see high fees and are told it brings "value"?
We see lowered caps and are told it brings "value"?

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 recommendation

Re: Has any ISP ever actually explained what they

said by Bill Neilson:

mean when they say "value"?

We see price hikes and are told it brings "value"?
We see high fees and are told it brings "value"?
We see lowered caps and are told it brings "value"?

Value to the stockholders. The only thing that really has value.
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

another industry that google is going to ...

...totally decimate.
sludgehound

join:2007-03-12
New York, NY

1 recommendation

Yeah where's the goog when need it?

Freaken bandits lock up NYC so no choice in matter. Kill ya
in the chair, shoot you, hang ya, poison, your choice.
Blows.
Random fortune from 'wisdom'
You can only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS

Cheaper to go LTE

$5 discount for only 5GB usage? It's cheaper to buy a Verizon MiFi and have service everywhere you want it.

This is proof that crack doesn't smoke itself. Kudos to Time Warner Execs for yet again not understanding the market they are engaged in. Where did they find their marketing people? The Pennysaver? The first question is what are people demanding. The second is how do you fill that need. The first was obvious, cheap service. Their answer; epic failure.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Re: Cheaper to go LTE

The CEO is bean counter who probably doesn't even use a computer.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Cheaper to go LTE

Nor has he ever taken marketing. It's as if they are back in the early 1900's. Back then production would make something and then tell sales to go out and sell it rather than over the last 30 years where the focus is on identifying unmet needs and THEN developing a product to fill that need.

No one wants this service, no one.
15444104
Premium
join:2012-06-11
.
15444104
Premium
join:2012-06-11
The greed of these creeps knows no bounds!
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·Embarq Now Centu..
·Comcast
·CenturyLink

1 recommendation

TW Does not define parameters billing system measures.

In this regulation free world, a broadband ISP's can meter customers usage without defining what is being metered. When customers meter indicates that they have downloaded and uploaded data when the customer is away from home and their modem is off means that the metering system is fraudulent. Do not expect relief from your government which has been bought and paid for by the ISP's.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: TW Does not define parameters billing system measures.

There is no regulation due to the FCC ruling the Internet as an information service not a communications service in the case of Brand X.

michieru
Premium
join:2009-07-25
Miami, FL

Speak with your wallet

What an insult this is towards the average consumer. Up next, paying for salt by the grain and not by the bushel.
eagleknight

join:2002-11-08
Troy, OH

Meter

While I don't agree with Time Warner pushing these caps and charges. I will say their meter seems to be accurate. It is very close or slightly under what my Tomato logs show for each month usage.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Hmmm..

"The company's repeated promise to offer a "low price option" for consumers who consume little broadband has never materialized, given that charging grandma $7 a month for her several megabyte-per-month usage would severely harm the company's wallet.

But yet it's okay to put Grandma on the hook for a muni project that she'd probably never sign up for if it fails???

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Hmmm..

said by TBBroadband:

But yet it's okay to put Grandma on the hook for a muni project that she'd probably never sign up for if it fails???

Don't kid yourself. We are all on the hook for corporate welfare. So I would rather see a muni any day.

IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

They should just institute a soft cap

They should just impose a 250 GB cap like Comcast. 250 GB is plenty of data and most residential use is well below 250 GB. The terms of service on most residential Internet connections state that usage must be consistent with normal residential use. Most TOS agreements also prohibit hosting servers or using it for a data center. Hosting servers or data centers on a residential connection would be like buying a residential Comcast Digital Voice unlimited home phone and running a call center or telemarketing firm while paying for a residential connection. The reason businesses are charged higher rates by the phone company for that call center or a data center is charged more by their ISP is that such facilities consume more of their resources than a normal residential customer.

My usage on my Comcast connection is about 30 GB per month (which is normal residential usage as it is below the 250 GB cap that Comcast used to enforce).

If you want to host servers or operate a data center, get a business connection.

•••••••••
dragonman300

join:2011-03-02
Anaheim, CA
kudos:1

.

I'm watching you Time Warner. If you secretly somehow announce data cap for us, then it time for me to go back to AT&T Uverse
--
Curious about Sprint improved 3G and growing 4G LTE network? Then check it out at www.s4gru.com
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Lies, Damned Lies, and Bloggers

Only in the mind of this forum did TWC "push low caps and high per byte overages in 2009". In fact, they did not state the plan's cost before they were slammed and silenced by so-called "consumer" advocates. They were going to offer a $15 tier.

They absolutely DO NOT want to charge overages. They want to capture the marginal customer who might choose to do without. If cable modem service is running $40/month, a solo subscriber might decide work, public WiFi and their "smart" phone plan are already enough access for their online needs.

••••••••

Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1

Interesting battle shaping up.

One corner you have the ISP and metered billing. Another corner you have Apple/Microsoft Google and others singing the praises of cloud computing.
In another corner you have game developers, Streaming game/movie services.
In the middle is the consumer.
In another corner is the number of business that now conduct business on line; fee free.
A smart consumer would just cancel his ISP service and walk away. But thanks to the way some businesses have started operating, that could cost you money to mail in a bill. Or to do a deposit at the counter at a bank. Let alone your friends and co-workers laughing at you, because you decided to save money.

IMO, I think I pay to much for a dumb pipe. 45 bucks a month just to hook a wire to my house. I very rarely call them for support. Heck, I don't even visit their web site.
Now they want to meter me. Damn AT&T and its stupidity at not rolling it's DSL service another extra 200 feet.

This metering crap tells me one thing. We need the last mile rules tossed out.
Open access for ISP providers.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.

CptSpaulding

join:2009-07-21
Cincinnati, OH

Why have the 6 strike rule?

No one will be d/l content anymore if they are on metered billing, at least no where near as much.

chip89
Premium
join:2012-07-05
Independence, OH

cap

at lest its not a cap they say you have to follow like some ISPS. (AT&T, Verizon shared data plans)

jchambers28

join:2007-05-12
Alma, AR
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·Cricket Broadband
·AT&T Wireless Br..

I wonder if this will apply in in Kansas City

do you honestly think they will be this stupid to apply this in Kansas City were Google fiber is. I just got off the phone with my brother he doesn't think that time warner cable will be in existence in Kansas city in the next 7 years because they're getting their ass handed to them on a silver plate. Time Warner Cable also showed up to his house today checking on his connection today. he has Google Fiber in 1 par the house and Time Warner Cable in another part of the house. he's going to keep Time Warner Cable and Google Fiber for a month. Time Warner Cable was also trying to convince him it was against the Terms of Service to have 2 internet providers in the same home. Time Warner Cable threatened to disconnect is service. he said please go ahead I don't need it. that's when they offered him a free month of Time Warner cable service for free. after that it's Google Fiber all the way. I'm kind of wondering what's going to happen since cut Time Warner Cable cannot compete.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: I wonder if this will apply in in Kansas City

Time Warner is done in KC.
nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8

1 recommendation

Wow.

5GB/month is insultingly low. Although I can see the appeal, I mean- with this plan I could send 50,000 emails without getting penalized! and about 10,000 more for just a buck!

It's pretty sad when wholesale bandwidth goes for a fraction of a cent per GB, and ISPs try to charge you $1/GB. Pure greed.

GNH
tolle causam
Premium
join:1999-12-20
Arlington, TX
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

1 recommendation

The Road Runner is a turkey...

...if they keep moving in that direction. In fact, all of these "caps" are going to make high-speed Internet offerings worthless. This is a "streaming" society, and if they cap, then that is an opportunity for someone to differentiate their product offering by uncapping. That won't happen any time soon, though. Too many capital barriers.

Still, five gigabyte for a 5 dollar discount!? That is utterly ridiculous. I guess a marketing dweeb liked the sound of it. Like a "5 dollar foot long."

This is going to hurt, but if consumers don't begin to push back, by refusing to buy ANY capped products, then it is going to delay the demise of that garbage. People just keep paying and whining.

antdude
A Matrix Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
United State
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Re: The Road Runner is a turkey...

said by GNH:

...if they keep moving in that direction. In fact, all of these "caps" are going to make high-speed Internet offerings worthless. This is a "streaming" society, and if they cap, then that is an opportunity for someone to differentiate their product offering by uncapping. That won't happen any time soon, though. Too many capital barriers.

Still, five gigabyte for a 5 dollar discount!? That is utterly ridiculous. I guess a marketing dweeb liked the sound of it. Like a "5 dollar foot long."

This is going to hurt, but if consumers don't begin to push back, by refusing to buy ANY capped products, then it is going to delay the demise of that garbage. People just keep paying and whining.

My family probably use up to 5 TB per month. ;P

antdude
A Matrix Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
United State
kudos:5

Can we see the amount of data we transferred yet?

I don't see it in MyServices account. Or is it only those with this metered setup?