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Comments on news posted 2013-01-18 10:27:04: For years the cable industry insisted that they imposed usage caps because network congestion made them necessary. ..

page: 1 · 2 · next

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

1 recommendation

In other news...

...the Sun rose in the east.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2

Re: In other news...

Birds flew south for the winter...

PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

Re: In other news...

...the sky is blue...

Y2KDragon

@pentagon.mil

Re: In other news...

...water is wet

Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

Re: In other news...

All of you lie !

mr sean
Professional Infidel
Premium,ExMod 2001-07
join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia
kudos:1

2 recommendations

And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead...

Scree
In the pipe 5 by 5

join:2001-04-24
Mount Laurel, NJ

1 recommendation

...And we still pay too much for services...

Qwest exec

@qwest.net

Re: In other news...

If you're willing to pay it, it's not too much.

Xioden
Premium
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1

Re: In other news...

We're going to start charging for oxygen. $100 a breath. Since you want to live and all you'll be willing to pay so it's not too much!

chip89
Premium
join:2012-07-05
Independence, OH

Re: In other news...

We are charged for air already try felling your tires at a gas station sometime.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Re: In other news...

The air is free, you pay to use the compressor.

rf1445

@comcast.net
Actually you are not paying for the air. You are paying for the use of the equipment and electricity it takes to pump that air. But their profit is still 99.9% of that cost.
Telco

join:2008-12-19
Indeed, because Americans have so many choices. Oh you mean it's 'your choice' to use electricity or running water.
NOVA_UAV_Guy
Premium
join:2012-12-14
Purcellville, VA
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

There's a difference between being "willing" to pay something and not really having a choice, isn't there? Some people work from home, and therefore have no choice but to pay for "high speed" Internet... even if they are price gouged.

And then we have the really anti-competitive businesses like AT&T and Verizon, who somehow magically will all die fiery deaths in hell if they aren't allowed to place ridiculously low caps on usage and bill for overages at ludicrous rates. They use the mythical "bandwidth hog" as their example, trying to paint a false picture about others' greed and habits when it's simply their own greed and desire to screw consumers which have led to their pricing model.

I'm not a big fan of big government... I'm really not. And I don't like it when government passes a whole bunch of new laws that aren't really necessary. But in this case, I believe we're almost at a point where our government has somewhat of a duty to step in and begin treating broadband as a utility... just like electricity and water. If we're going to be stuck in a nation with little to no choice of "high speed" Internet providers in most areas, then consumers should be at least entitled to the same protections afforded to them when faced with other monopolies.

m0deth

@verizon.net
Yes because there's so much f'king choice in this non-monopoly driven communications market we have here in the U.S.

Please, leave the gems of wisdom home if they contain no wisdom, spouting lines like that requires willful ignorance of the situation.
htroberts

join:2011-02-11
said by Qwest exec :

If you're willing to pay it, it's not too much.

That's only true if the price is set by the market: that is, if there are many buyers and many sellers. Internet providers work hard to ensure that there's not a competitive market.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Re: In other news...

That is the very definition of and inelastic item. People need insulin and to avoid death will pay whatever it costs to get it but that doesn't mean that the cost paid can't be excessive.

BingoRingo

join:2010-03-29
Gatineau, QC
kudos:1
Reviews:
·voip.ms
said by Scree:

...And we still pay too much for services...

In Canada the new trend with Rogers is 200 MB on a 3-year $55/month plan. It used to be 500 MB for cheaper just a few months ago... That doesn't mean you're getting a deal though.

Whatsupwhdat

@161.113.4.x
The rent is too damn high.

bear73
Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly Skies
Premium
join:2001-06-09
Derry, NH

Re: In other news...

Actually, in many areas, it is. And because rental unit occupancy is high (due to the market crash and high unemployment-underemployment people can't buy houses) and continues to rise because "supply&demand allows us" to charge rent till most people are out on hte street. THEN you 'll see rent come down until occupancy is high again and we'll start the merry-go-round again...

WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

1 recommendation

I discovered I like women better than men...
miser

join:2004-01-16
Sandusky, OH

Re: In other news...

Hi WHT

You almost owed me a new keyboard and LCD display ....

Never drink coffee when reading DSLR!!!!

(I lurk and rarely post in the UBNT forum, so that's how I got the reference)

Cheers,

Miser

60632649
Premium
join:2003-09-29
New York, NY
Don't eat the yellow snow!

coxcustomer

@cox.net
Rocks are hard....

Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

Re: In other news...

liar

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

3 recommendations

Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

If metered pricing were about "fairness," carriers would offer the nation's grandmothers a $5 a month tier that accurately reflected her twice weekly, several megabyte browsing of the Weather Channel website.
The first packet is the most expensive one to deliver, because you have to have all of the necessary underlying infrastructure in place to get it there.

The key problem is trying to time your technology refresh cycle so that it lines up with the next generation of available technology so that you get the most "bang for your buck" when you purchase new hardware for replacement or expansion.

Data caps are an imperfect system to try and shape demand into something that meets that refresh cycle. It's been pretty clear for years that caps are about the business model, not congestion.

We had this whole discussion on this site in 2008/9 when there was news every freaking day about the Comcast network management system. This isn't news.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

2 recommendations

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

It's news because a cable lobbyist admitted it, and it's a huge accomplishment that the opposition had so much proof the network congestion was a farce that they finally had to come clean and admit it.

Of course they just switched to a new argument, but that argument is even weaker in my opinion.
InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

2 recommendations

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

said by MovieLover76:

it's a huge accomplishment that the opposition had so much proof the network congestion was a farce that they finally had to come clean and admit it.

Congestion would become very real and a very expensive problem to fix if all incentives to moderate usage and artificial speed bumps were removed while people are still expecting dedicated-like performance.

Building the network just to reach the customers is expensive but bulking up the network to sustain high concurrent usage at high speeds quickly gets expensive too.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

Really? how do both cablevision and Verizon FiOS manage uncapped users, while also being two of the Fastest ISP's based on real life speed tests.

The lobbyist gave up the argument man, time to toss in the towel.
InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

said by MovieLover76:

Really? how do both cablevision and Verizon FiOS manage uncapped users, while also being two of the Fastest ISP's based on real life speed tests.

Just because you can speedtest the highest speed does not mean the network behind those speeds could actually cope with a large percentage of subscribers using anywhere near those speeds at the same time.
guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

You Obviously know nothing about FIOS and that for all practical purposes Verizon IS a major backbone of the US internet.

Verizon could care less what its users send/receive as being a tier one provider, it costs the same for one bit or one trillion GB, they have no peering charges

••••

Cinematech

@adelphia.net
I am fortunate enough to live in an area with municipal broadband. I'm also fortunate enough to have been given an unrestricted access tour of the local NOC. Granted, the user base is only 15000 users, the lead network engineer reported that typical constant bandwidth usage during prime time stays around 50 MB. If everyone on their program suddenly decided to go hog wild, they would still have sufficient network overhead. Oh yeah, they only charge $35 for a 10 Meg, symmetrical fiber connection.

Joey1973

@verizon.net
And there ya have it folks... some people still believe the old mantra about caps being an essential part of managing the "network".

No, caps are and have always been about PR and managing customers' perceptions about using the network. ("Don't use it! You might break it!")

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH
Yea but that cost comes down if you build a network that is reliable, more customers will subscribe.

Compare DSL and Cable, Where the DSL connection provided frequently has issues and throttles even youtube, yet the cable connection doesn't and provides a predictable consistent connection & speed regardless of content or time of day. The cost to provide the cable network will drop as there will be more rate payers to subsidize the costs for the installed network, while the DSL connection will degrade worse as there are less and less users to foot the costs. Now swap roles, and the argument remains.
34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

said by OSUGoose:

Compare DSL and Cable, Where the DSL connection provided frequently has issues and throttles even youtube, yet the cable connection doesn't and provides a predictable consistent connection & speed regardless of content or time of day. The cost to provide the cable network will drop as there will be more rate payers to subsidize the costs for the installed network, while the DSL connection will degrade worse as there are less and less users to foot the costs. Now swap roles, and the argument remains.

What you said is far from true everywhere. There are plenty of places where the opposite is true and *DSL networks run fine without congestion and cable nodes are congested to crap. It really depends on the company and how the network is managed and if the components are upgraded appropriately.

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: Yeah, let's just ignore the access charges

That's exactly what I was saying, but the same can be true if you reversed it.

Case in point here AT&T DSL is ok, yet Insight/RR is oversold.
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
I might agree, but hasn't Comcast kept the same cap for years? I mean if that is the case, then the D3 upgrade didn't make any bit of difference?

In my neck of the woods, Time Warner nor FIOS have caps and both stream at max rates all the time, especially FIOS. And I only pay $110 for 50/25 and extreme. I think that is perfectly reasonable, and I use about 200-400GB a month (depending upon the kids streaming habits). I would not be happy in a capped world.

What they have to worry about is simple: I drop cable and do only internet. Now I use 600-700GB a month because streaming becomes the only method for getting video. Right now outside of broadcast only 5-10% of the viewing comes from cable. Wife has finally given me the go-ahead to drop cable and save $50/mo.

Also infrastructure costs are often shared w/ the other services (most people actually run TV), so in that case outside the HSI equipment costs, baked into the cost of cable and phone are infrastructure costs.

As we know transit costs (if they have any) --look @ CDN have been plummeting.

So the cost is clearly going down, so why does the price go up every year? Profit, nothing more, nothing less. I don't blame them, they can get away with it for now.

If too many people start dropping cable, then it will start eating into their margins because equipment was sized for distributing cable too. Phone cost is minimal.... That is the balancing act, keeping you signed up for the triple play....

••••••
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

1 recommendation

said by espaeth:

If metered pricing were about "fairness," carriers would offer the nation's grandmothers a $5 a month tier that accurately reflected her twice weekly, several megabyte browsing of the Weather Channel website.
The first packet is the most expensive one to deliver, because you have to have all of the necessary underlying infrastructure in place to get it there.

You hit the nail on the head. The connection itself has a fixed cost regardless of what the actual usage (be it total data or average bitrate) is. Our electric bill costs us $15/mo before we use a single kWh, just for the connection to the grid.

In a fair system, Grandma wouldn't be paying $44.95/mo, but it's equally insane to think that she should be paying $5/mo. Time Warner's tiered option ($5 lousy dollars off your bill for a pathetic 5GB cap) is a blatant rip off, but the point here isn't to save 95% of their customers money. It's to monetize the 95%+ percentile of customers that use the lion's share of the available network capacity.

•••••••••••••••••

Sarick
It's Only Logical
Premium
join:2003-06-03
USA
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
My mother is a grandma and given the chance she'd do over 50gb a month! She learned about netflix and as a grandma uses her PS3 to stream Dora the Explorer ext to the grand kids. Not to mention her level 15 trophie ranking on PSN.

Grandmas aren't all low bandwidth users some math the big boy in usage.
--
Sarick's Dungeon Clipart

FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Cost coverage shift from tiered TV to tiered data

quote:
caps are really about: driving up the cost of data for all users in order to offset the inevitable decline in TV revenues
Or in other more accurate words: " Covering the fixed cost infrastructure of the cable plant as video watching shifts from the cheaper broadcast cable channel method to the more expensive bandwidth intensive point to point streaming method. " So costs will shift from tiered TV plans to tiered data plans based on usage and not speed.
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Brighton, MA

Re: Cost coverage shift from tiered TV to tiered data

oh it will still be based on speed. no way will people get 100mbps connections for the same price as another person on a 12mbps connection.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

Genius

Sooo, they switched from the weak network congestion issue, which they were lucky enough that most people don't understand congestion, to a fairness argument, for which anyone can debunk simply by looking at the prices on their website.

Genius lol

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Well, surprise, surprise, surprise!

»The real reason for the cap ~by IPPlanMan~

I said that caps had nothing to do with addressing congestion back in 2009...

As I recall, some didn't agree with me about that...
WernerSchutz

join:2009-08-04
Sugar Land, TX

Re: Well, surprise, surprise, surprise!

Well, the cable lobbyist will just say later that he "misspoke" (lied, in political speech)

IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

Why should Netflix undercut cable

Comcast owns the lines and infrastructure. They charge a modest price for TV service and that pays the salaries of hard working individuals maintaining the infrastructure that carries TV, phone, and Internet. I don't think Netflix should get a free ride on Comcast's lines as I call that unfair competition. If it was not for Comcast offering TV service, we'd be paying three times as much for Internet. Competition is good, but when you severely undercut a competitor and get a free ride on their infrastructure, I call that unethical competition. I think the FCC should seriously look at IPTV services and make them adhere to the same regulations that cable/satellite/broadcasters must adhere to. I pay a good chunk of money to Comcast each month for my triple play and cord cutters are going to cause that cost to go up as they still have the cost of maintaining infrastructure but are losing the money to pay for it and broadband prices will go up and quality will decline.

I think Comcast should waive caps if a subscriber gets expanded basic or above or Netflix should have to pay Comcast and other pay TV providers for use of their networks.

••••••••••••••

cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

But the tubes!

They are using them up!!!

5% use 95% of the bandwidth.
Then there is the "sandvine" backdoor sniffing patent trolls....
--
Splat
34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

Re: But the tubes!

said by cableties:

They are using them up!!!

5% use 95% of the bandwidth.
Then there is the "sandvine" backdoor sniffing patent trolls....

95% of the traffic, not bandwidth. It is impossible for 5% to use up 95% of the bandwidth. It is the 95% of the users using up most of the bandwidth.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Who cares.

Who cares what the reasons are or supposedly are. All that matters is that they exist.
pittpete1

join:2009-06-12

This made me laugh

Comcast owns the lines and infrastructure. They charge a modest price for TV service and that pays the salaries of hard working individuals maintaining the infrastructure that carries TV, phone, and Internet.
Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

Re: This made me laugh

said by pittpete1:

Comcast owns the lines and infrastructure. They charge a modest price for TV service and that pays the salaries of hard working individuals maintaining the infrastructure that carries TV, phone, and Internet.

please...
34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
Too clueless.
BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

LOL

@ Grandmothers for $15/mo. That's true, if it were about fairness, they would have options. And they would hit the unlimited plans at or around $60/mo if they offered 50+mbps speeds with unlimited use.
AndyDufresne
Premium
join:2010-10-30
Chanhassen, MN

This is why prices go up to a T.

»www.npr.org/templates/transcript···69413848

"Employees want higher wages and better benefits and better working conditions. Suppliers want to give fewer discounts and want you to pick up more of their products. Communities want more donations. Governments want higher taxes. Investors want higher dividends and higher stock price. Every one of the stakeholders wants more. They always want more."
pittpete1

join:2009-06-12
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

Re: This is why prices go up to a T.

You forgot something
quote:
The average CEO of a major corporation in the U.S. was paid $15 million in 2005, and the figure has climbed dramatically since then. The average U.S. worker's salary in 2005 was $40,000 and it has actually declined during the recession to approximately $34,000.00 Susanna Km writing an ABC News article just a week ago, said the average CEO pay increased 14 percent to $12.9 million in 2011, 380 times that of the average worker, following a 22.8 percent rise in 2010.The U.S. stands out, compared to other areas in the world with respect of CEO compensation.
Not going to provide a link, just google are CEO salaries out of control?

Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

Re: This is why prices go up to a T.

I believe this is the link you were referencing: »www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wir···-control
--
-Jason Levine
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

$$

Maybe it's time for inflation to give a $5 boost to tiers.. but in exchange there should be speed bumps as well.. and primarily the cable companies have been stingy with the upstream bandwidth as much as every other telco NOT on fiber is with the downstream.. There is no good reason why every service provider shouldn't be at 50 megabits down/upstream for $1 per megabit unlimited service. Of course it's a pipedream.. but apathy, corruption and industry gluttony fests abound on why you pay more for less. Afterall the USA is only a bit short of 4 millions sq. miles and a good % of that isn't even where people live.. most of the population are in cities..
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

This cap & overage thing was allowed to go on for far to long in the wireline business. WIRELINE BROADBAND internet is NOT a service that should be metered like wireless data, or other rediculous pricing schemes such as what you pay for OEM printer ink, gasoline, fedex overnight shipping rates, etc..

•••

DaEnigma

join:2004-11-26
Hood River, OR

!$!@$#!@%$

Ahh crap the Mayans may have just had the date wrong

InetforAll

@cisco.com

Bottom Line

The bottom line is I want a pipe to the Internet. This is what I pay for. I don't want it capped. I don't want it filtered. If Comcast, Verizon, AT&T, et al want to compete with Netflix, then they should do so. But there should not be a relationship between streaming video or any other content and the Internet Service Provider. I'd like to see the day when the Internet is this ubiquitous, high speed, high performance network that all services are delivered over. Streaming Video and Audio, Telephone, etc. The ISP's deliver the pipe. And anyone who wants to deliver content compete against each other, all delivering content over IP using the Internet.

••••••
jkeelsnc

join:2008-08-22
Greensboro, NC

Lack of Competition

Lack of competition is a big part of the problem here. Still, vote with your money. I use TWC for internet. I am sure they don't like that I don't subscribe to TV service but its too expensive and I don't like watching TV much anyway. Before anyone gets their panties up in a bind about netflix you should know that I only stream 3 or 4 hours a week of netflix on average. TWC calls all the time trying to convince me what a "good deal" i'd get with a triple play or whatever. Yet all it would do is remove more money from my wallet for phone service I don't need and TV I don't want.

Furthermore, if they add caps I'll just downgrade to a lower, cheaper tier. The more they push the more I pull money back into my wallet. That is not selfish and it is not greedy. Anyone who thinks I should just open my wallet to go ahead and get all this stuff that they think I should is full of crap. I'll send YOU the bill every month then. Why would you try to argue about cord cutters cutting services they don't want or need? That is stupid. The cable companies need to adapt to the new environment or die off.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Lack of Competition

Lack of competition is 98% of the problem and the barriers of entry to create competition is the other 2%.

If there were multiple choices for every user whom they get as their ISP then we would not have 99% of the stuff to discuss here.

One fiber network, nationwide, serving every person and business that can choose amongst any service that wants to reach them anywhere in the world. All we need from the ISP is a valid IP address. They dont even need to provide DNS as we can get that on our own.
albundyhere

join:2000-10-26
New York, NY

Pricing Fairness?

Earthlink aka TWC has been giving themselves annual raises on my behalf every year...until this year. I've got a great present for them...well, it's more for me.

YukonHawk

join:2001-01-07
Patterson, NY

Cable Industry.....

Never mind

Unbundled
But When ? ?
Premium
join:2010-09-13
Irving, TX

Time Warner charges Grandma too much ! ! ! !

TW will charge your Grandma out of her home, if necessary. It's all about fairness to a conglomerate that has ever growing expenses to keep ahead of the Jones's, and yes, Grandma will pay for that, whether she likes it nor not.

After TW took over from Comcast in N. Texas, the rates for Basic Basic (no Box) went from $10 to $12 to $14 and is now $19. For the same damn Basic Basic service.

Funny how the price for Basic stayed around $10 for many many years, and then Bam ! Up and Up she goes.... and to HELL with Grandma!!!

Well, obviously, the same TW business model applies to their internet fee structure. AT&T is just as obscene.
--
A La Carte Cable Choice is the ONLY Choice I'm Interested in ! ! !

cork1958
Cork
Premium
join:2000-02-26

How come?

How come EVERYONE in the world knew this was a bunch of bull from day 1, except the cable folks?

What a crock!!
--
The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/
shamus087

join:2012-12-01
Bedford, OH

TWC low load.

It's funny, when I was having internet issues about 2 weeks before Christmas last year, during a Tech repair visit, I suggested that it may be possible that the internet server node I'm on is overloaded, to which he told me that he can check that, he showed me a bunch of graphs, but what I got from it was 22% overall load at the busiest times.

Keep in mind he logged in from my computer to show the graphs about current total load of their server.