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Comments on news posted 2013-02-01 08:54:40: Earlier this month Netflix announced that they'd start offering users 3D and "Super HD" movie streams if their ISPs used Netflix's new content delivery network. ..


Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:23

1 recommendation

Dat Bitrate

Even with what Netflix compresses the videos with, the videos are still quite washed out and blurred from the compression to say the least. I won't consider it "Super HD" until the picture quality, not the resolution as a whole improves.
Telco

join:2008-12-19

Re: Dat Bitrate

When I compare them to comcast in my area, the picture and sound is significantly better.

If you have FIOS, their picture is immaculate of course.

dre8791

join:2010-08-09
Camden, NJ

Re: Dat Bitrate

Yes it is....

gjrhine

join:2001-12-12
Pawleys Island, SC
compression is a function of your network - that's a you problem

Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:23
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Frontier Communi..

1 edit

Re: Dat Bitrate

I don't think so. Looks horrible even on a Gigabit connection backed by hundreds of Gigabits in the same location, and when I Ctrl + Alt + Shift + S the quality up to the max bitrate which I do anyways because I despise the auto-selection systems.

Maybe it's just an opinion of mine since I watch Netflix on an IPS 10-bit RGB computer monitor on DisplayPort, not on a TV.

toby
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA
The issues is that it isn't even HD never mind Super-HD.

gjrhine

join:2001-12-12
Pawleys Island, SC

Re: Dat Bitrate

Netflix tests your network and adjusts compression accordingly.
RichNice

join:2003-01-09
Columbia, MD

Come on FIOS...

...go ahead and do it just to stick it to Comcast again.
decifal

join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1

Another

Another service lost to many without landline options...
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

1 edit

Why would they?

Why would large ISPs signup? They are supposed to peer directly with Netflix. And The ISPs are supposed to pay all the costs of doing so. Netflix won't charge them to peer "for now" but not guarantee about later. As a reward, ISPs can increase the traffic on their last mile. Verizon has no reason to do this.

As I have said before, my ISP can't do this even if they wanted to. They can't peer with Netflix. And they don't meet the requirements for getting the hardware appliance. Truly small ISPs are left in the cold and the big ones have no desire to connect. Not working out as well as Netflix had planned.

Morac
Cat god

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

Re: Why would they?

I don't think this increases costs for ISPs since the traffic still flows over their network regardless if they peer with Netflix directly or not. Peering directly with Netflix can be cheaper for ISPs since they aren't paying for Netflix traffic anymore and Netflix actually provides the hardware.

I think the biggest issue is that most ISPs in the U.S. are also TV providers. They don't want the competition from Netflix so even if it saves them money from the ISP side, they won't sign up as it will cost them money on the TV content side (reduced rates from competition).

Comcast already refuses to allow HBO2Go and EpicHD on Roku for that reason.
--
The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Re: Why would they?

said by Morac:

I don't think this increases costs for ISPs since the traffic still flows over their network regardless if they peer with Netflix directly or not. Peering directly with Netflix can be cheaper for ISPs since they aren't paying for Netflix traffic anymore and Netflix actually provides the hardware.

I think the biggest issue is that most ISPs in the U.S. are also TV providers. They don't want the competition from Netflix so even if it saves them money from the ISP side, they won't sign up as it will cost them money on the TV content side (reduced rates from competition).

Comcast already refuses to allow HBO2Go and EpicHD on Roku for that reason.

If you are Verizon though, you don't pay for traffic anyway being a Tier 1. Same for At&t. The Netflix hardware is limited. They give them to you to feed the high density areas, but not your entire network if you are as big as Verizon.

But otherwise I agree with you. It competes with their own offerings.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Why would they?

You are incorrect and over estimate the size of their network. Verizon's is not that robust and they dont reach every business and user in the world thus they are peering with others.

Even level 3 which is the largest backbone provider in the world peers with others.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Re: Why would they?

said by Skippy25:

You are incorrect and over estimate the size of their network. Verizon's is not that robust and they dont reach every business and user in the world thus they are peering with others.

Even level 3 which is the largest backbone provider in the world peers with others.

I never said they didn't peer. You are just chomping at the bit to prove everything I say wrong. You don't even both to read what I say.
chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink

Verizon's is not that robust and they dont reach every business and user in the world thus they are peering with others.

"Verizon has received top Metro Ethernet Forum awards around the world for its leadership and innovation in developing and delivering Carrier Ethernet business services. In addition to earning the Global Service Provider of the Year award for the fourth consecutive year, Verizon received two Carrier Ethernet Business Application Awards for Asia-Pacific, the Best Marketing award for the Americas and the North America Regional Service Provider award."

Yup, totally not Robust at all. Nah, perhaps I'll believe the Metro Ethernet Forum.

»metroethernetforum.org/page_load···_id=2499

»newscenter.verizon.com/corporate···t-forum/
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Please get a clue about how this works and how the internet in general works.

When you get that clue you will clearly see that it is a win-win situation for both of them with the ISP getting the better of it.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Re: Why would they?

Alright, since you clearly think I know nothing, explain it to me.

Explain to me how a Tier 1 like Verizon, who pays nothing for peering benefits from this. How it helps them make more money by peering directly with Netflix's network, with Verizon footing the costs, which just do happens to compete with Verizon's TV offerings. How increasing traffic in the last mile will help Verizon. How Verizon will be benefited from a contract that promises not to charge them for peering "for now" but no guarantee about the future, regardless of Tier-1 status?

Explain to me how small ISPs that are not within a hundred miles of the Netflix Open Connect Content Delivery Network will benefit from from a network they can't peer to even if they wanted to? How small ISPs that don't meet the traffic requirements for the appliance hardware will magically benefit from a program they don't qualify for? Which by the way, you are supposed to peer to the Netflix Open Connect Content Delivery Network to use?
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Why would they?

Because oh wise one.

Netflix for the most part uses Level 3 for their ISP so they will be the example here. Verizon (insert any IPS even your small ones) will thus get all Netflix traffic that their customers request from Level 3 without them agreeing to host caching servers and thus it will affect their peering agreement with Level 3. That is how peering agreements work.

Now if Verizon were to agree to have FREE caching servers on their network they will benefit 3 ways.
1.) They will get a lot less traffic between them and Level 3 to get the content that their customers are requesting being that it will be cached internally thus saving them money.
2.) They will get the "upgraded" content.
3.) They will make their consumers more happy being that probably millions of them use Netflix.

Netflix of course benefits because they send out less data saving them money AND they get to offer a higher service to their customers.

You bring up last mile crap is just that.. crap. The customers are going to request the data, Verizon is going to deliver that data. They can either deliver it cheaper and better by having caching servers or they can deliver it more expensively and try to beat down a competitor by not allowing the better quality. But then again, Netflix (and I would recommend this) can fight back by allowing FIOS customers to get the high quality stuff anyway forcing Verizon to spend more money on the content their very customers are requesting. So Verizon can choose to help them both out or Verizon can be an ass and choose to hurt them both.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Re: Why would they?

Netflix CDN is a separate network. It may use Level 3 infrastructure, but that is irrelevant. It can only be peered free of charge at these locations:

Ashburn, VA: Equinix Internet Exchange
Atlanta, GA: Telx Internet Exchange
Chicago, IL: Equinix Internet Exchange
London, UK: LINX and LONAP
Los Angeles, CA: Any2 Internet Exchange
Miami, FL: NAP Of The Americas
New York, NY: Telx Internet Exchange, Equinix Internet Exchange, NYIIX
San Jose, CA: Equinix Internet Exchange

So... what is an ISP going to do if they do not operate in those regions? Well they are not going to peer obviously. They may peer with someone who does peer with Netflix, but it seems that it doesn't matter. You peer with Netflix or not at all. Even if they do operate in these regions, they have to haul the traffic all over their network. Very inconvenient. And these caching servers are not candy. Netflix isn't going to just hand them out. They have a list of requirements to qualify, that doesn't even mean you will get one. And if you don't peer with them, you probably are not going to get one.

Most importantly they compete with existing TV services. Verizon would be foolish to work with Netflix if all it does in return is eat into their revenue stream.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Why would they?

I believe the biggest point you are missing is that Netflix is going to be eating into their revenues regardless so it would be to their benefit to work with them to save them both money.

Do you think subscribers are going to cancel Netflix just because they can't get this upgraded service? No, they are going to continue to stream movies OR if they have the option and it is important enough to them they may very well change services to get the upgraded Netflix. So now the ISP has to deal with Netflix traffic passing their peering points and possibly losing customers which again will effect their revenue. Again, it would be to THEIR benefit to work with Netflix to save them both money.

Smaller ISP's could still benefit if they had to pay for the caching servers and connection as well. Ultimately it would be for them to decide if it is cost benefit enough as their customers are going to request the Netflix data. Would it make more since for it to all have to pass 1 time to get to many people on their network or do it for every customer that request it?
chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink

1 edit

Re: Why would they?

BTW I really don't disagree with you or the other side, something is missing

1. I agree it's really a win for all

but

2. Verizon and Redbox have Instant

3. This "OpenConnect" CDN, I don't care what's it's called - is something that Netflix would normally have to PAY Verizon to connect to. - just as Netflix PAYS Level 3. So offering this new CDN for "free" is not an incentive for Verizon.

4. Verizon Owns and Operates this place:
Miami, FL: NAP Of The Americas
»www.terremark.com/data-centers/a···cas.aspx

Verizon can freely peer with almost anyone if they wanted to. But they don't. That's how the Internet works. The Tier 1's are all friends. The others have to pay the Tier 1's if they want to connect.
jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
said by Skippy25:

Smaller ISP's could still benefit if they had to pay for the caching servers and connection as well.

Can you throw out how you define "smaller ISP's"? I operate an EXTREMELY small ISP, and don't consider my network anywhere close to even being large enough to be considered "small" but even so, it takes a heck of a large network to be able to get any benefit from the servers.

Even if Netflix were to give me the caching server, I need to supply it with a 5 gbps connection in order for it to update the content nightly. In a metro area where you have access to datacenters containing many of the Tier-1 providers, sure, that's no problem. You can do the peering then too.

But for any ISP in rural areas, this is a non-starter. It costs $5,000 a month in my region just to get a 100 mbps fiber connection to backhaul bandwidth from a metro area. The prices per meg go down as you go to gigabit and above, but still that's a hell of a price tag just to feed the caching server, and I consider any ISP big enough to have that much traffic to not be considered "small" anymore. Sure, they may not be giants like VZ, etc, but I consider that to be at least a medium to large provider.

Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22
said by silbaco:

So... what is an ISP going to do if they do not operate in those regions? Well they are not going to peer obviously. They may peer with someone who does peer with Netflix, but it seems that it doesn't matter. You peer with Netflix or not at all. Even if they do operate in these regions, they have to haul the traffic all over their network. Very inconvenient. And these caching servers are not candy. Netflix isn't going to just hand them out. They have a list of requirements to qualify, that doesn't even mean you will get one. And if you don't peer with them, you probably are not going to get one.

It most certainly does matter if you peer with somebody who peers with Netflix. That's how a lot of Canadian ISPs got on OpenConnect.

Netflix doesn't care if your ISP peers with them or not. They care if the traffic goes out through their OpenConnect peering connections, or if it goes out through their paid transit.

The other way to get on OpenConnect, if you're not near a Netflix peering point, is to accept the free OpenConnect caching hardware and stick that on your network. That's how my ISP got on OpenConnect, despite not peering with Netflix.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath
You don't have to peer with them at their data centers. You can cache their content with their boxes as well. But its limited to many ISPs as they are required to have X amount of traffic to NF at a given time. So its back to square one for most of them. The Open Connect system is pointless for a great deal of ISPs that actually compete with AT&T, VZ, Comcast, etc.

theblonde07
Premium
join:2002-04-28
Piney Creek, NC
Actually that isn't true regarding small ISP's. I'm in North Carolina in a rural area with a small ISP and they have peered up with netflix.

said by silbaco:

Why would large ISPs signup? They are supposed to peer directly with Netflix. And The ISPs are supposed to pay all the costs of doing so. Netflix won't charge them to peer "for now" but not guarantee about later. As a reward, ISPs can increase the traffic on their last mile. Verizon has no reason to do this.

As I have said before, my ISP can't do this even if they wanted to. They can't peer with Netflix. And they don't meet the requirements for getting the hardware appliance. Truly small ISPs are left in the cold and the big ones have no desire to connect. Not working out as well as Netflix had planned.


--
Most of what I know about computers.......I learned on Broadband Reports.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

3D, Really?

Unsurprisingly, nobody cares.

Morac
Cat god

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

Netflix is just trying to save money

What I don't understand, is that until very recently, Netflix 1080p streams were all at least 5 Mbps. Netflix lowered them when they "re-encoded" all their videos at a lower bitrate.

The new Super HD bit rates are approximately the same as the old HD bit rates. The only reason Netflix is requiring partner sign ups is so Netflix can move its servers inside the ISPs networks. Netflix is providing this as a "free" service to the ISPs, but really it's a way for Netflix to save money.
--
The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

1 recommendation

It's about bandwidth costs, not TV revenue

National network providers have a much more complicated bandwidth pricing structure due to regional peering (SFI and paid) agreements. Say you have an AT&T customer in Atlanta and a Verizon customer in Seattle. Rather than AT&T having to carry that traffic across their backbone to hand it off to Verizon and Seattle, AT&T and Verizon make a deal that Verizon will take the traffic directly in Atlanta and carry the traffic on their own network to their own customers in Seattle. This works if you assume that you can leverage economies of scale to build your own network capacity cheaper than you can buy it from someone else.

So if I'm a backbone provider like Level(3), I work out a deal with national network operators like AT&T, Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner that I will give them a screaming deal on transit costs if we interconnect at numerous regional peering locations. I do this because I can then sell the hell out of bandwidth to content providers in, say, Denver. Most of that traffic will be going directly to ISP subscribers, so if I can connect directly with "eyeball networks" in Denver I can dump all of that traffic, regardless of where in the country it's really going, and only have to grow my network capacity in the Denver area itself.

Regional networks like Sonic.net and Cablevision don't get this same pricing because carriers need to backhaul all traffic to the west and east coast to reach them (respectively). That's why the regional networks will sign up for the Netflix deal -- it's cheaper for them because they don't already have the preferential transit pricing agreements.

For national operators, however, the problems become numerous. Now they have to dedicate capacity to connecting to Netflix's non-Internet private network at all of their regional interconnect locations. Once they connect, they then have to pay for all the capacity augmentation on their own backhaul network to get the traffic to the various destination cities of their customers. After that, because carriers like Level(3) are no longer selling as much capacity to Netflix, the pricing structure for Level(3) to the ISPs will increase in price.

So you end up in a situation where Netflix saves a ton of cash on bandwidth costs, the national ISPs take on costs of adding connections that only connect to Netflix (not the Internet), and overall Internet transit pricing goes up so that all non-Netflix traffic will actually end up being more expensive.