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Comments on news posted 2013-04-22 08:55:08: • Why DISH should be negotiating with Clearwire rather than bidding for Sprint [gigaom.com] • Web users become 'accidental' pirates [guardian.co.uk] • New technologies could drive up the speed of DSL [buffalonews.com] • Google fined huge amount of. ..

rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

2013-Apr-22 9:47 am

New DSL Speeds

It seems hard to believe the article still mentions the tired "DSL has dedicated bandwidth" advantage over cable's shared infrastructure.

Unless subscribers are part of an antique cable plant, that argument hasn't held water for the past decade. In the past 10 years, the popular speed package on my system (Charter) has increased from DSL-like 1.5Mbps to 30Mbps. Cable's shared architecture disadvantage sure has a odd way of holding them back.
2013-Apr-22 9:47 am: · hey mods ·
Albert71292
join:2004-10-31
West Monroe, LA

Albert71292

Member

2013-Apr-22 10:44 am

Re: New DSL Speeds

I've been reading articles like this for YEARS, yet I'm still sitting on 6Mbps speed. Won't believe it until I see it!
2013-Apr-22 10:44 am: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to rradina

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 9:34 pm

to rradina
Technically, the argument is valid to a certain degree for the last mile if sufficient backhaul exists at the DSLAM. Realistically, as you suggest, cable has done a fairly good job of pushing fiber deeper into its networks for backhaul, splitting nodes, and managing congestion.
2013-Apr-22 9:34 pm: · hey mods ·
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

2013-Apr-23 8:24 am

Re: New DSL Speeds

Any argument can be valid depending on perspective. However, a 2013 technical article that claims an advantage due to DSL's extremely limited but "dedicated" last mile is like a driver who continues to praise a car's architecture and yet hasn't placed in the top 10 in the past decade. It's repeating marketing for investors and wishful thinkers.

DOCSIS 3.1 is aiming for 10Gbit downstream. The DSLAM will have to be in the subscriber's mailbox to be competitive. I don't call that an architectural advantage. At that distance, the coax is equally dedicated.

If the POTS plant folks have fiber to the DSLAM, they should consider the capabilities and cost of a wireless last mile. Especially if they could create a standard, get the consumer to foot the bill for the CPE and offer self-installation.
2013-Apr-23 8:24 am: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

2013-Apr-23 8:37 am

Re: New DSL Speeds

said by rradina:

DOCSIS 3.1 is aiming for 10Gbit downstream.

Split across how many channels? And how many cable companies are going to bond that many channels? For the record, I agree with you on principle. xDSL has a way to go to catch up with HFC plants used by cable companies.
said by rradina:

If the POTS plant folks have fiber to the DSLAM, they should consider the capabilities and cost of a wireless last mile.

I don't see that being any more viable than pushing twisted pairs to their limits. Plus the added cost and spectrum needed?
2013-Apr-23 8:37 am: · hey mods ·
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

2013-Apr-23 8:57 am

Re: New DSL Speeds

I don't think xDSL can catch them -- that's the problem with continuing to invest in this tech without at least pushing fiber deeper into their territory and serving everyone with something vs. just those fortunate enough to be within a mile of where they stopped.

Spectrum might no longer be the issue:

»White Space Broadband Deployed in California [22] comments

Copper also continues to age and it's going to get crazy expensive to maintain given fewer and fewer POTS customers remain to share that cost. I'd be considering alternatives such as wireless. Maybe it's too costly but if you reliably can reach a mile from the DSLAM and reuse that same spectrum at another DSLAM three miles away...maybe it would be an affordable stop-gap that allows them to continue to push fiber deeper and split nodes (just like cable). Perhaps at the half-mile mark and continued wireless advances, they would remain competitive. Obviously the goal would be fiber all the way but this might be a path that allows them to eat the elephant a bite at a time while also offering a potential off-load for mobile customers. The mobile off-load could also generate revenue by becoming a monthly fee that doesn't affect their 4G data cap (or at least has a separate cap).
2013-Apr-23 8:57 am: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

2013-Apr-23 9:04 am

Re: New DSL Speeds

said by rradina:

without at least pushing fiber deeper into their territory and serving everyone with something vs. just those fortunate enough to be within a mile of where they stopped.

That costs money. If the telcos saw the returns, they would've already made that push.
said by rradina:

Spectrum might no longer be the issue:

»White Space Broadband Deployed in California [22] comments

I definitely don't see telcos leveraging white space for the last mile. Too many unknowns.
said by rradina:

I'd be considering alternatives such as wireless.

Wireless will fill the gaps. That's a given. Fiber upgrades will eventually replace the rest.
2013-Apr-23 9:04 am: · hey mods ·

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

NetFixer

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 12:27 pm

New technologies

"AT&T representatives declined to comment on the technology they will employ to upgrade their network."

Actually, they have already commented on that subject, they just did not respond to this particular article's author. The technology will be LTE, not any flavor of DSL.
2013-Apr-22 12:27 pm: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 9:30 pm

Re: New technologies

Or more likely, T will continue bonding copper pairs, implement vectoring when it's ready, and slowly expand Uverse across more of its plant.
2013-Apr-22 9:30 pm: · hey mods ·

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

NetFixer

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 9:53 pm

Re: New technologies

said by openbox9:

Or more likely, T will continue bonding copper pairs, implement vectoring when it's ready, and slowly expand Uverse across more of its plant.

We obviously don't reside in the same galaxy.
2013-Apr-22 9:53 pm: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 9:57 pm

Re: New technologies

No, I think we do. I think you're more interested in poking AT&T, then legitimately discussing its plans for infrastructure upgrades/modifications.
2013-Apr-22 9:57 pm: · hey mods ·

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

NetFixer

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 10:24 pm

Re: New technologies

said by openbox9:

No, I think we do. I think you're more interested in poking AT&T, then legitimately discussing its plans for infrastructure upgrades/modifications.

Besides living in an area where AT&T is the ILEC (and seeing what is and isn't being done), all I have to do is read recent PR statements from AT&T's executives to know that they are definitely planning on dumping copper infrastructure as quickly as they can get relief from the regulations that require them to continue maintaining it. Anyone who is not aware of that, is definitely not living in the galaxy where the AT&T we all know and love operates.

And don't put me into the totally anti-AT&T crowd; I use AT&T Mobility because (at least in this area) they have the best coverage and most reliable service. Wireless is one thing that AT&T does indeed put money into both for maintenance and expansion.

DSL expansion or upgrade? Not around here.

U-verse expansion? Not around here.

They did recently start the "upgrade" process to replace ATM based DSL with IPDSL branded U-verse service in the areas that are served by the CO (instead of from an RT based DSLAM). But that is not expansion, nor is it really an upgrade (the available speed options are exactly the same as for the ATM based DSL that is being phased out...the only difference is that the customer is forced to purchase a new modem). I would love to have the option of getting 24/3 mbps (or faster) VDSL U-verse service , but I have literally been told by local techs and engineers* "not in your lifetime".

* I am recently retired, but I worked with local AT&T techs and network engineers on numerous enterprise level accounts prior to that (and I still have local contacts).
2013-Apr-22 10:24 pm: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 10:43 pm

Re: New technologies

said by NetFixer:

all I have to do is read recent PR statements from AT&T's executives to know that they are definitely planning on dumping copper infrastructure as quickly as they can get relief from the regulations that require them to continue maintaining it.

And AT&T's Uverse markets and other areas that it makes sense to upgrade? Or are you simply assuming that AT&T is going to sell all of its residential wireline markets off once it gets them deregulated? Hint, it's not.
said by NetFixer:

Wireless is one thing that AT&T does indeed put money into both for maintenance and expansion.

Because of the ROI.
said by NetFixer:

DSL expansion or upgrade? Not around here.

U-verse expansion? Not around here.

Just wait. I'm on the record for suggesting that T and VZ will increase CAPEX in their wireline infrastructure after their LTE builds are complete. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm betting otherwise.
2013-Apr-22 10:43 pm: · hey mods ·

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

NetFixer

Premium Member

2013-Apr-22 11:58 pm

Re: New technologies

said by openbox9:

And AT&T's Uverse markets and other areas that it makes sense to upgrade? Or are you simply assuming that AT&T is going to sell all of its residential wireline markets off once it gets them deregulated? Hint, it's not.

...

Just wait. I'm on the record for suggesting that T and VZ will increase CAPEX in their wireline infrastructure after their LTE builds are complete. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm betting otherwise.

I think that you have misinterpreted AT&T's LTE plans for the future. We are not talking just about the current state of LTE as a mobile platform transport, but also about a fixed LTE deployment that will initially replace wireline DSL and POTS, and eventually be the "last mile" for U-verse as well. It will be what Clearwire could/should have been if they had the capital and political influence that AT&T has.

AT&T's ultimate goal is to rid themselves totally from copper wireline maintenance (and that will decimate the CWA as well).
2013-Apr-22 11:58 pm: · hey mods ·
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

2013-Apr-23 12:40 am

Re: New technologies

said by NetFixer:

I think that you have misinterpreted AT&T's LTE plans for the future. We are not talking just about the current state of LTE as a mobile platform transport, but also about a fixed LTE deployment that will initially replace wireline DSL and POTS, and eventually be the "last mile" for U-verse as well.

No, we're talking about mobile LTE and fixed LTE to fill the gaps where it doesn't make sense from a business perspective to upgrade the wired infrastructure.
said by NetFixer:

AT&T's ultimate goal is to rid themselves totally from copper wireline maintenance (and that will decimate the CWA as well).

Granted, breaking the unions would be helpful from a business perspective, but I don't believe AT&T wants to get rid of all of its wireline infrastructure. That simply does not make sense.
2013-Apr-23 12:40 am: · hey mods ·