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Comments on news posted 2013-05-09 12:11:31: Since around 2004 I've talked about the significant amount of fraud involved in the government's IP Relay service, which is intended to help the hearing impaired communicate with phone users via the Internet with the help of paid transcription worker.. ..

page: 1 · 2 · next


ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL

1 recommendation

Nothing like giving them what they deserve.

A slap on the wrist is par for the course. Happy they didn't do anything substantial.


SunnyD

join:2009-03-20
Madison, AL

1 recommendation

Pure speculation.

Karl, when you have actual documents in hand that can specifically address these "billions" of minutes with an exact amount, then you are more than welcome to make those accusations. While I have no love lost for AT&T or any national carrier, your article (as more often than not) in this case is pure speculation and total sensationalism. Nothing more.



humanfilth

join:2013-02-14
cyber gutter

1 recommendation

prison for fraud

Until the day that the executives of these corporations get put in prison for their obvious fraud, ripping off the people for billions of dollars is nothing but a misdemeanor(as shown by the tiny fine)

And that also goes for those people that bribe the government, along with those politicians who accept the bribes.

Lobbying = Bribery

Expand your moderator at work


cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

But..

how will ATT pay for the money loss in phone book advertising decline?
--
Splat



chip89
Premium
join:2012-07-05
Independence, OH

Sprint

Expect that sprint does't even offer this anymore and landlines all together.



Mojo 77

@184.105.144.x
reply to SunnyD

Re: Pure speculation.

Oh FFS. Only this website would have boobs come out defending AT&T for abusing a system used to help the elderly and hard of hearing.

IP Relay has been abused for decades. As the article notes, you should be able to do the math at $1.50 per minute subsidies with a decade or two of abuse, when 80-90% of all IP relay traffic is fraud. Do the math.

The chicken-shit FCC didn't call for an audit of course so we'll never know for sure, but if you think this netted them anything less than a billion you're a fool.



Alex J

@he.net

Also, the article doesn't even mention that IP Relay has been used for prank calls for several decades. Nice of taxpayers to fund the bill for that, and nice of regulators to do nothing about it. This was a massive story in 2004 I remember. It's mind blowing that we're just now seeing any real action on this:

»www.nbcnews.com/id/4781806/ns/te···U8bWsiSo


josephf

join:2009-04-26

"(IP Relay was first established in 1974)" ??

TRS may have been established in 1974, but IP Relay (which the scammers use from overseas) is much more recent. IP Relay is the Internet version of TRS. Established after 2000.


FastLearner

join:2003-09-14
Arvada, CO

1 recommendation

$1.50 a min?

Looks like its time to make an adjustment to the subsidy. It can cost the carrier more than a few pennies per min.



FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to Mojo 77

Re: Pure speculation.

said by Mojo 77 :

Oh FFS. Only this website would have boobs come out defending AT&T for abusing a system used to help the elderly and hard of hearing.

IP Relay has been abused for decades. As the article notes, you should be able to do the math at $1.50 per minute subsidies with a decade or two of abuse, when 80-90% of all IP relay traffic is fraud. Do the math.

It isn't defending AT&T to question the amount of fraud minutes claimed by Karl. Until he can find stats showing how many IP Relay minutes were used and how much was fradulent, the total amount of loss is speculation.
--
"If you want to anger a conservative lie to him.
If you want to anger a liberal tell him the truth."

axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC

1 recommendation

reply to FastLearner

Re: $1.50 a min?

I think they are paying a person to translate the message. I can see how it's expensive, though $0.50 per minute should be plenty. If it's done with computer voice, it should be much cheaper.



Mojo 77

@184.105.146.x
reply to FFH

Re: Pure speculation.

What I really like is there's a huge article here clearly outlining proven fraud perpetrated against a service that's intended to help the elderly and hard of hearing, and you and barney here's only comment is that you think it's outrageous to speculate that we could be talking billions of dollars in fraud.

The DOJ lawsuit alleges tens of millions, the FCC alleges unspecified millions. Neither did an audit because they're weak-kneed weasels and AT&T would fight them for years in court. The DOJ estimated that 95 percent of AT&T's IP Relay call volume was fraudulent foreign callers. The article speculates that it could top out in the billions, and with a decade of use I'd tend to agree that's a very real possibility over 10-15 years of abuse.

You guys are either trolls or obtuse.


SunnyD

join:2009-03-20
Madison, AL

2 recommendations

reply to Mojo 77

I completely agree that if/with no audit, than the fine is mostly a hollow victory. But let's be honest, without that audit saying "billions" it no more relevant than saying "tens". It only serves to make things potentially more sensational than they are.

Personally, I'd have preferred to see a full audit. From what I can tell, the DOJ may still pursue this further (it appears that their investigation isn't linked to the FCC's action at all?). Perhaps criminal charges may still come of it too. One can only dream. Until then, this is a step forward no matter how minuscule it happens to be.



Mojo 77

@184.105.146.x

I completely agree that if/with no audit, than the fine is mostly a hollow victory. But let's be honest, without that audit saying "billions" it no more relevant than saying "tens". It only serves to make things potentially more sensational than they are.

The article simply speculates we could be talking billions, with $1.50 per minute and ten to fifteen years of abuse (not to mention prank calls). I think that's entirely within the realm of possibility and not "sensational." What's "sensational" is that it took ten to fifteen years for the government to do anything about it.

It's very, very unlikely you'll see either the DOJ or FBI pursue an audit, based on historical cases like this. I bet if you did a real audit of any incumbent telco's coffers over the last thirty years, you'd find a hell of a lot worse than a billion in IP relay fraud.

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to axus

Re: $1.50 a min?

said by axus:

I think they are paying a person to translate the message. I can see how it's expensive, though $0.50 per minute should be plenty. If it's done with computer voice, it should be much cheaper.

The relay operator is always a human, never software. The service would be impossible to use if it was software due to accents, bad/noisy landline phone or bitrobbed mobiles, asking the RO if they reached a male or female on the other end, etc.

Taget

join:2004-07-29

1 recommendation

That slap on the wrist must sting....

...perhaps half the 600mhz offering in the next wireless auction and a lollipop will make them feel better?


FastLearner

join:2003-09-14
Arvada, CO

1 recommendation

reply to patcat88

Re: $1.50 a min?

That make more sense. I figured it was a machine translation.



battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

reply to Alex J

Re: Pure speculation.

"Also, the article doesn't even mention that IP Relay has been used for prank calls for several decades."

Uhmmm.........
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.



kontos
xyzzy

join:2001-10-04
West Henrietta, NY
reply to josephf

Re: "(IP Relay was first established in 1974)" ??

said by josephf:

TRS may have been established in 1974, but IP Relay (which the scammers use from overseas) is much more recent. IP Relay is the Internet version of TRS. Established after 2000.

And the Gov't rules weren't changed until 2008. If they had tried to limit access to the relay service before that, I wonder how much of a fine they would have faced.


linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
Reviews:
·TracFone Wireless
·CenturyLink

1 recommendation

Boo hoo

Power hungry FCC is power-less without Congress. It cannot enforce. It is a watchdog that promotes deep pocket lobbyists over We The People.

Outgoing should not be allowed to join any person or group that is a registered lobbyist for a regional, state or federal person, or group, for at least 10 years after departure from FCC.
--
Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside



OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

1 recommendation

reply to Mojo 77

Re: Pure speculation.

How much of that "foreign" traffic was US prankers using intl VPN's



thender
Screen tycoon
Premium
join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1

http://www.removed.us/vms/iprelay

The good old days.



ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL
reply to OSUGoose

Re: Pure speculation.

none most likely.



ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL
reply to cableties

Re: But..

people pay for phonebooks? I've never paid for a phonebook. It's part of the service. Hell, AT&T delivered phonebooks to me for probably 10 years after I ditched my land line.


equivocal

join:2008-01-23
USA

1 recommendation

reply to patcat88

Re: $1.50 a min?

It must be pretty obvious to the humans that 80-90% of their work is facilitating spam. What a demoralizing job. I guess they get into a mode where they don't think about the content. Data entry jobs get like that, and the guy who claimed to transcribe Morse code while reading novels.



cork1958
Cork
Premium
join:2000-02-26

1 recommendation

reply to FFH

Re: Pure speculation.

said by FFH:

said by Mojo 77 :

Oh FFS. Only this website would have boobs come out defending AT&T for abusing a system used to help the elderly and hard of hearing.

IP Relay has been abused for decades. As the article notes, you should be able to do the math at $1.50 per minute subsidies with a decade or two of abuse, when 80-90% of all IP relay traffic is fraud. Do the math.

It isn't defending AT&T to question the amount of fraud minutes claimed by Karl. Until he can find stats showing how many IP Relay minutes were used and how much was fradulent, the total amount of loss is speculation.

Yeah,
I love stats to but I'm not such a blind nit wit that I can't see that no matter what the actual stats may be, we all know how true this is and the fact the FCC did absolutely nothing about it just proves that office needs to be eliminated! Just as AT&T and Verizon, just to mention a couple, need to be also!
--
The Firefox alternative.
»www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/


Twaddle

@sbcglobal.net

What more proof do we need?

ATT is held guilty of a massive fraud involving potentially millions of dollars and NO ONE goes to jail, No accounting audit nothing but a token slap on the wrist fine which will be paid by ATT customers. Your local welfare mother will get a jail term for fleecing some food stamps yet ATT fleeced Millions and nothing??? Just more proof that the Federal government is bought and paid for by the highest bribe/payoff. Not much better than the Russian Mafia government.



VernonDozier

@comcast.net
reply to ArrayList

Re: Nothing like giving them what they deserve.

Indeed. Likely, they'll raise rates though. Being publicly traded, AT&T has an obligations to find pocketchange in other people's couches before providing a reasonable service



VernonDozier

@comcast.net
reply to FastLearner

Re: $1.50 a min?

Subsidies like this are pretty good. I wish I could have a product with that kind of return.

All your selling is bandwidth.