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Comments on news posted 2013-07-08 11:16:43: New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman has joined a chorus of voices concerned about Verizon's refusal to repair the DSL lines of Sandy victims, and the broader ramifications involved in Verizon's severing of copper lines (still a necessary util.. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next


pjcamp

@openskytelcom.net

If Verizion doesn't want to play landline anymore . . .

. . . why don't they just sell off the business? And if they're violating regulations to force people off, can they be forced to sell? What they want is to keep the customers but shaft them on the service. But their license requires them to "serve the public interest."


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Fine is not just $100,000/day

The fine is not just $100,000/day. It is $100,000/day for each user cutover to Voicelink outside of disaster area of Fire Island.
»www.forbes.com/sites/eliseackerm···per-day/

By connecting customers outside western Fire Island with Voice Link, Verizon knowingly violated a commission order and should be fined $100,000 per day for each violation, until the violation is corrected, Schneiderman asserted.

--
"If you want to anger a conservative lie to him.
If you want to anger a liberal tell him the truth."


jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Avon, OH

let them eat fiber

Can we take this opportunity to upgrade them to fiber and overhaul the network? Or does the competitive landscape and how it operates dictate differently? I would rather have phone and internet options over fiber than replace with old copper. I agree wireless is not an alternative to a dedicated line.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Verizon

While he is no doubt correct, the wireless they are offering is not a suitable alternative in this case, he is completely stupid if he thinks Verizon can sell those copper lines. There is a reason Verizon is not willing to use them. They are ruined. No company is going to buy damaged copper infrastructure. And what company has the money to buy their non-damaged copper? Every major telco in the US is struggling financially. The last thing they need is more debt.

juicem2

join:2006-03-05
Mastic Beach, NY
reply to FFH5

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

Good make them liable. Verizon thinks they can do whatever they want. A lot of people still rely on these services. They should be upgrading instead of abandoning. I think the penetration rate for fios is about 25% for tv and 27% for fios internet and climbing every quarter.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to jgkolt

Re: let them eat fiber

Sure. But who is going to pay for that? Verizon has no intention.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to juicem2

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

If people would switch to FiOS, they would get their upgrade. But as you said the penetration rate of FiOS is low. That is why Verizon doesn't want to invest. Why spend money on an upgrade people are not willing to use?

ISurfTooMuch

join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL
reply to pjcamp

Re: If Verizion doesn't want to play landline anymore . . .

Because no one in their right mind is going to buy those areas, not after FairPoint, Frontier, and Hawaii Telecom.

Another reason Verizon won't sell is because they figure they've found a way (Voice Link) to keep those customers without needing to really serve them. I mean, the companies I mentioned above were morons, but what if a competent company managed to get those areas and actually offer a competitive product? They might actually manage to hold those customers and dent Verizon's wireless strategy. No, better to use Voice Link as a way to hold onto those customers against the possibility that Verizon might find other products to foist on them later.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to silbaco

Re: let them eat fiber

Verizon can, They have a shitload of money with how much profit they make. And network rebuild cost is not a major issue because Comcast seems to have had no trouble rebuilding their network after the storm.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


scaredpoet

join:2001-03-26
Monmouth Junction, NJ
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to silbaco

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

The penetration rate is low because Verizon won't expand. I'd LOVE to get FiOS, but it's not available to me, and never will be. My only choices now are cable, or 3Mbps DSL... at least as long as the copper is good in my area. If... no, WHEN, it degrades, I highly doubt Verizon will lift a finger to repair it.

And guess what? If the folks in Fire Island, Mantoloking and other places where Verizon is foisting VoiceLink were upgraded to FiOS, they'd probably prefer it too. But Verizon isn't building out FiOS there, or anywhere else anymore. They'd just rather the copper rot, and have those customers either go away or switch to wireless, with its higher fees and capped data.


scaredpoet

join:2001-03-26
Monmouth Junction, NJ
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Kearnstd

Re: let them eat fiber

There's absolutely no doubt that they can. The problem is, they don't want to, because by not spending the cash, they feel they can get more money from those customers who are duped into paying for VoiceLink, or the kickbacks they get from the cable companies that are marketing quadruple-play services, with Verizon furnishing wireless service.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to Kearnstd
They have a lot of profit from the wireless side of their business, but their landline side is not doing anywhere near as well. Investing in it would practically be charity until the penetration goes up.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to scaredpoet

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

Some people on Fire Island had FiOS it seems, but relatively few. Like everywhere, FiOS penetration is lackluster. It's low even where FiOS is available. Many people do not want to switch over for whatever reason. And it's not just Verizon, but many other providers are in the same boat. I know of several that have had to simply tell people they are terminating DSL, switch to Fiber or have nothing.

tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

municipal decision

these regulations are tied to the municipalities in which they serve..
if the municpal government doesn't want Verizon to even replace copper with fiber.. they have EVERY RIGHT to make that case.. replacing copper with vastly inferior wirless and higher prices.. was just ASKING for municipalities to assert their rights and complain to the public utility commission which enforces state law.

fire island and zones which are troubled flooding spots are a unique case. after a while, if the infrastructure isn't sufficiently protected in a way it won't have to be rebuilt every new storm that comes through there is sufficient rights to make changes. however, Verizon can't argue every zone which had infrastructure wiped out is a problem zone and this is where they will run afoul of regulations.

$100k per day could help build MUNI fiber projects quite quickly..

Very few, if ANY municipalities have given up their rights for Verizon to remove the copper network so therefore it must be maintained side-by-side with any fiber installs. Verizon is accelerating fiber builds along the Brooklyn shorelines and it remains to be seen whether they'll try to remove the copper lines. Most of the problem lies in southern Manhattan and parts of New Jersey..


tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

reply to scaredpoet

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

said by scaredpoet:

The penetration rate is low because Verizon won't expand.

You misunderstand "penetration rate", it's not a total number that would be fixed by further rollouts, but the percentage of homes passed that become long term (not just promo seeking)full rate customers, because that is what would repay the cost of the FioS over the next 40 years.
If the take rate (another way to express penetration) is below 40% in the areas the carefully selected to build first, other areas are likely to be worse, so expanding makes the total number worse.

people shouldn't get too happy about huge fines which will eventually be repaid by customers.


AnonMan

@comcast.net

hah

I think this is funny. Our same gov. that got into bed with these companies and allowed them to monopolize things such as this now is upset the company is doing what it wants?

In simple terms, if you don't like Verizon service don't use it. If you don't have any other option, well in Verizon's eye it's not for them to care. Start-up your own company if you want... If you can't because regulations, laws etc, well go back and cry to your gov. because the end of the day the gov. allowed these regulations and laws that favored these companies or restricted more affordable ones from doing anything.

Copper is dying and going away. Regardless of how you look at it no one is going to maintain anything copper, it's not worth it.

Now some of these issues can be addressed by upgrades to the wireless device, and these complaints of some features not working can be as well, but that's up to Verizon still also.

Cellular is not too different vs VoIP as both are now digital. Had FIOS deployed in these areas some people would still complain because FAX doesn't work well over VoIP and various other older things.

Now do I agree with what is being done? No, but at the same time can't say I blame them. If it was my company and I knew it would cost me more money vs. what I could make who knows what decisions I would make. Now I wouldn't go be flat out greedy but I wouldn't care to be in it for a loss for sure. The point of business is to grow and make money.

End of the day. I blame regulations and laws for allowing these things.

Okay, fine Verizon 100k a day per use... what are they going to do if they don't pay? nothing because a company that big has much more power vs. any single state, esp when most of the state uses them. Again, all the gov. fault. They would be in more trouble if Verizon walked away and laughed at them.

Grant it in the long road it would be better as other companies and competition would take off but until that all got done everyone would be messed up.


ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA
reply to silbaco

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

said by silbaco:

If people would switch to FiOS, they would get their upgrade. But as you said the penetration rate of FiOS is low. That is why Verizon doesn't want to invest. Why spend money on an upgrade people are not willing to use?

But there is a difference in penetration rate when people have a choice between their current copper and moving to fiber and having nothing and moving to fiber like they are now.

en103

join:2011-05-02

Why not...

Allow a Municipal build of fiber in those communities that want it ?
Basically pull a 'eminent domain' on the rotting ROW, copper and LEC that Verizon has stopped using.


MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1
reply to silbaco

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

Most customers are slow to switch to a new service, where I live (NJ) many of not most areas around me have FiOS, penetration rates are low because of two factors, one the bad pr verizon got for it's billing issues (which seem to be resolved) and just when people started switching to FiOS in my area they started jacking up rates.
I know lots of people who have the service, but most people see it as the same as cable.

I'm still with FiOS because of the superior internet and PQ, but to most people it's not competitive, they either don't know or care about the higher PQ or more reliable internet and without a price incentive to get them to try out the new service, they are unlikely to try it. Most people need a price incentive to sit around for a few hours while they install the new service. Verizon's mistake was in insisting that it was a premium service and jacking up rates. They made their own problem in order to justify stopping deployment which they did to stop their short term thinking investors from complaining. They really shot themselves in the foot with short term thinking.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to ropeguru
Yes there is. But that doesn't matter to Verizon anymore. Customers made their decision. Had they all jumped on FiOS when it became available, they would almost certainly still have service because Verizon would actually be making a return on their investment.


MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Customer's didn't make the decision, investors did. You can't expect huge penetration rates for a completely new service immediately and definitely not when you start jacking up rates while trying to increase penetration, this was done to justify stopping the deployment which short term thinking investors had been complaining about since they initially starting deploying fiber.

When they eventually swapped out their CEO for someone who was similairly short sighted, those investors got their way, they shot themselves in the foot to justify stopping deployment.


Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
Reviews:
·Charter

1 recommendation

reply to silbaco

Re: let them eat fiber

Without all of the backhauls that were built out, acquired by, and still maintained by Verizon Business, Verizon Wireless could not exist in its present form. The cell side has been receiving indirect subsidies from the landline portion of the business since its inception.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to MovieLover76

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

Verizon started slowing FiOS deployment long before the quick return wireless ideology started. FiOS has been very expensive to deploy and has not made the money they expected. The return has been poor and most of the benefits such as lower maintenance have not been appreciated because Verizon still has to maintain their copper network.

Higher rates are a necessity when you want to pay off your investment.


atuarre
Here come the drums
Premium
join:2004-02-14
Conroe, TX

1 recommendation

reply to silbaco

Re: Verizon

They aren't struggling. Verizon and AT&T are sitting on tons of cash.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
They may have some cash, but both are tens of billions of dollars in debt. Although I was specifically referring to Centurylink, Windstream, Frontier, and Fairpoint who are in worse shape.


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15

New Jersey's PSC may not be thrilled about Voice Link either

From:
Big disconnect: Telcos abandon copper phone lines
By Peter Svensson, Associated Press - July 8, 2013
»hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/···ONE_LINE
quote:
In New Jersey, state regulators are talking to Verizon about Mantoloking but haven't approved the landline-to-wireless switch that Verizon has already started. It could, at least in theory, deny Verizon's application and force it to rewire copper phone lines back into the town.


MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1
reply to silbaco

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

I'm not talking about their switch to wireless strategy, I'm talking about initial investor reactions to the idea of FiOS which can be found as far back as when they started the buildout. There's probably earlier sources but I found this from 2008

»www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/techn···all&_r=0


jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

Complicated Legal Trickery?

I don't believe the deals made between Verizon and Fairpoint/Frontier were necessarily complicated. The problem was that the individuals making the decisions on both sides of the deal were apparently benefiting from the results financially, despite the clear warnings by many that this would effectively cripple the smaller companies at the unfair gain of the larger.

The people directly involved in these business decisions need to be investigated for possible corruption and bribery.


atuarre
Here come the drums
Premium
join:2004-02-14
Conroe, TX
reply to silbaco

Re: Verizon

said by silbaco:

They may have some cash, but both are tens of billions of dollars in debt. Although I was specifically referring to Centurylink, Windstream, Frontier, and Fairpoint who are in worse shape.

Debt is not necessarily a bad thing.

pittpete1

join:2009-06-12
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to silbaco

Re: Fine is not just $100,000/day

Silbaco, I don't know where you are getting your data from but read these
»www.fiercecable.com/story/shammo···12-01-24
»www.fiercecable.com/story/verizo···13-05-14
Wireline Operational Highlights

Verizon added 144,000 net new FiOS Internet connections and 134,000 net new FiOS Video connections in fourth-quarter 2012. Verizon had a total of 5.4 million FiOS Internet and 4.7 million FiOS Video connections at the end of the quarter, representing year-over-year increases of 12.6 percent and 13.3 percent, respectively.
FiOS penetration (subscribers as a percentage of potential subscribers) continued to increase. FiOS Internet penetration was 37.3 percent at the end of fourth-quarter 2012, compared with 35.5 percent at the end of fourth-quarter 2011. In the same periods, FiOS Video penetration was 33.3 percent, compared with 31.5 percent. The FiOS network passed 17.6 million premises at year-end 2012.

O and poor Verizon having to maintain copper lines.
Maintain means actually having to spend $$$$$ doesn't it.
The condition of some of the cables in NY are a wreck(i can only speak on what I've seen, not a generalization like so many seem to do)Upstate NY has led cables and paper covered wires 50 + years old.
They've made billions upon billions through the years to create what they have today and now they turn their backs on their customers and their employees.
Stop playing games with the rates and the promotions,fix the billing and continue to provide a superior product and you'll keep your customers on FIOS. If they were serious about FIOS they would also work harder on securing franchise agreements in areas where theres no video. All they want to do is attrition the current work force while raping the consumer at the same time so Lowell can go back and high 5 his executive board about their next big salary raise.
Stop drinking the koolaid people.