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Comments on news posted 2013-07-31 12:38:48: The other day I noted that an individual by the name of Douglas McClendon had filed a complaint with the FCC, claiming that the company's TOS language blocking the use of servers is a network neutrality violation. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next


Mr Anon

@k12.il.us

But...

I'd like to point out that your favorite whipping boy of an ISP lets me hosts servers including Mail (without any smarthosts) on my residential connection.

Other than that one footnote I could care less. If I had the chance to have Google Fiber I'd run whatever I could get away with and only be slightly miffed if they did A) Deep packet inspection, B) Active Finger printing.

ds7

join:2012-11-07
Montpelier, VT

Correcting this abuse is long overdue

Preventing users from running legal software of their own choice on the connection they pay for has always been a network neutrality violation. The fact that the industry has gotten away with this abuse for so long does not make it right.

Network neutrality means not discriminating by the origin/destination or content of packets. No one objects to ISPs limiting bandwidth according to the contract with the customer; and no one objects to rules that customers may not adversely affect others (spam, malware). There is no reason a server can't be run within these rules. The ISPs know this perfectly well, and therefore their pretence that servers must somehow cause bad effects are dishonest. The sole real reason for the prohibition is to extract more money by artificially crippling the "residential" service.

The inherent and historic nature of the internet is "peer to peer". It should be illegal to call a service "internet access" if customers are limited to a consumption-only role - or subjected to content filters, falsification of DNS or other hobbles. When one or a few companies hold a monopoly on the cable lines, phone lines or other basic infrastructure in an area, they must be regulated to protect the public interest in equal rights of communication for everyone - including citizens as well as commercial actors.


baineschile
2600 ways to live
Premium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI

4 recommendations

Sure

According to this site, all other major ISPs are horrible, and violate net neutrality all the time. But not the ever loved Google. They have a $70 1GB connection, so they are forgiven for all.

I wish this site would be the way it used to be, where it reported news, and not just opinions.


dmcnonanon

@sunflower.com

there is a lot wrong here, but you seem to be agreeing ??

I'm too tired to respond to all the wrongness of this article. And amongst all the wrongness, upon first skim it seems like you agree with many of my core points and preferences for change. So I'll wait and comment more later today depending on how the story unfolds. But for a start, where do you get your facts exactly?? TimeWarner Broadband is so not my broadband provider. Honestly I'm so broke I don't have one other my *cough* android phone *cough*. If, AND ONLY IF, I see sanity prevail in this argument, will I likely be willing to once again pay the usual fee for fixed residential broadband, because then I would know I would have a SnowdenPRISMCrash chance in hockey sticks of getting my local broadband providers to give me the freedom of dataspeech on their networks I expect and demand (given FCC-10-201/NN). Later...


Alex J

@184.105.146.x
reply to Mr Anon

Re: But...

I'd like to point out that your favorite whipping boy of an ISP lets me hosts servers including Mail (without any smarthosts) on my residential connection.

The piece clearly notes that even bigger, nastier ISPs with mean streaks (like AT&T) include the language but don't enforce it. I doubt Google planned to, either. It's there as a failsafe for extremely abusive customers.


Alex J

@184.105.146.x

1 recommendation

reply to ds7

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

Preventing users from running legal software of their own choice on the connection they pay for has always been a network neutrality violation. The fact that the industry has gotten away with this abuse for so long does not make it right.

I don't like overly broad TOS, but I think the ISPs have a right to differentiate between residential and business class servers. The language sits there as a tool to handle only the most egregious of offenses (running a full grade commercial server on AT&T U-Verse). Conflating it with network neutrality does the network neutrality movement a disservice. Slamming Google Fiber, who is bringing more competition to the market, for legal language differentiating residential and commercial lines, also kicks the movement in the ass.

Not that there's much of a movement left, the attempt to get real rules passed is all but dead.


GlennAllen
Sunny with highs in the 80s
Premium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA
reply to baineschile

Re: Sure

Isn't that like asking sportswriters to do away with polls and stop predicting the outcome and scores for games? (never gonna happen)


Mojo77

@he.net

1 recommendation

reply to baineschile
Cry less, read more. From the piece:

To make it clear Google has absolutely waffled on their original network neutrality principles, and there's plenty to criticize the company for on that front, starting with their decision to work with Verizon to gut real neutrality protections for wireless.

Yeah, really giving them a free pass there.

kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL

2 recommendations

reply to baineschile
said by baineschile:

..I wish this site would be the way it used to be, where it reported news, and not just opinions.

I think Karl's qualified enough to call it analysis...... this industry is loaded with subjective slant, PR & sock puppet news.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
reply to dmcnonanon

Re: there is a lot wrong here, but you seem to be agreeing ??

Want to host a server? Do it in a data center, for $5 per month. You'll get a gigabit connection now, and it will be more reliable than using either the Knology connection you're posting from or the GFiber connection you for some reason despise.

BlueC

join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Integra Telecom

1 recommendation

Quite standard

Pretty much all Residential ISPs forbid commercial use over their connections. However not everyone actively enforces it (e.g. port blocking).

It's really there for the event a subscriber significantly abuses their connection (like hosting a website that generates a large volume of traffic). Residential service is for residential use. I don't see a problem with someone hosting an FTP server that they share with a dozen people, or hosting game servers and whatnot. I'm sure Google doesn't mind it either. But in the event someone decides to be frugal and use their $70/mo connection to host a bunch of a websites, generating a consistently large volume of traffic, yea... I'd shut them down too and stand firmly behind that language outlined in the TOS.

In the end, this is very standard language that pretty much all Residential ISPs include within their TOS. It's there as a technicality for most in the event there is serious abuse. No one should be using a Residential connection for something that requires a large volume of traffic while generating revenue. Otherwise we'd all be paying more for internet access at home. Not to mention this should really be an obvious restriction on both sides. Using a Residential connection with no firm SLA for business-use is about as dumb as it gets.

I still find it somewhat comical that people have something to complain about when they're receiving a symmetrical 1gbps connection for $70/mo. I'd imagine the use of a VPN would pretty much solve the whole "commercial-use" concern anyways. Google wouldn't inquire with the subscriber unless they were saturating the connection 24x7.


kpfx

join:2005-10-28
San Antonio, TX
reply to Mr Anon

Re: But...

How are you hosting a mail server without setting up PTR records? I don't know of any ISP that will let you change the reverse DNS lookup for a residential IP.


gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall

join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA

3 recommendations

reply to baineschile

Re: Sure

Karl's been drinking the google koolaide for years. I think he was one of the first ones on this site pushing free google email.
It AINT free. The cost for some people is, it seems, their soul.
--
Let them eat FIBER!


anonphoneuse

@comcast.net

should be no difference in residential and business services

in this day and age of home start ups and small home offices there should be absolutely no differentiation between business and residential services. ISPs should offer different size packages with various speeds, data quota, etc. i should be able to signup for any package regardless if i am an individual at home, a small business owner or a large corporation. i pay appropriate for what i order. arbitrage from these connection should be completely fair game. if i wish to rent a house in kansas city with google fiber to run a seedbox business on a bunch of servers than google should have already though about that impact before they launched.


Stack70

@184.105.144.x
reply to gaforces

Re: Sure

Karl's been drinking the google koolaide for years. I think he was one of the first ones on this site pushing free google email.
It AINT free. The cost for some people is, it seems, their soul.

Like here Karl blasts Google for being massive hypocrites and effectively killing the network neutrality movement?

»Google Lawyer Again Insists They Didn't Sell Out On Neutrality

Yeah, what a Google KoolAid drinker

kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL
reply to gaforces
You must have forgotten what email was like pre-gmail.... IMAP was non-existent, Hotmail offered 2MB mail storage, and Yahoo Mail a whopping 4MB.

kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to iansltx

Re: there is a lot wrong here, but you seem to be agreeing ??

Where/which data center can I put my server for $5/month with gigabit speeds, or use one of their (real) servers?

I'd even take a VPS if it could do a gigabit..
--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.

Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ
reply to kpfx

Re: But...

You don't need reverse DNS for mail to work. We don't have it at work and we send hundreds of emails per day without issues.
--
My beta Ruby on Rails tutorial site!

Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ
Reviews:
·FreedomPop

3 options

There isn't anything wrong with what google is doing. Removing these restrictions would cause more harm than good.

1) ISPs can differentiate commercial and residential connections, placing fair restrictions on each (this is what most ISPs including Google do).
2) ISPs can jack up everyone's pricing to commercial rates ($150+ per month depending on the ISP) instead of the $20-$40 that most of us pay now.
3) ISPs can cap residential users to 20 gigs or so.

Which would you prefer?
--
My beta Ruby on Rails tutorial site!

Automate

join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA

1 recommendation

reply to ds7

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

said by ds7:

Network neutrality means not discriminating by the origin/destination or content of packets.

Agreed. I think Karl is the one trying to redefine what network neutrality means.


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:42

2 recommendations

said by Automate:

said by ds7:

Network neutrality means not discriminating by the origin/destination or content of packets.

Agreed. I think Karl is the one trying to redefine what network neutrality means.

Except I'm not. Network neutrality does not automatically mean you have the right to run commercial grade services on a residential line. There has to be some common sense for the definition of neutrality. Defining it as "I can run my poker and porn empire off of my $70 residential line and anyone who says otherwise is violating neutrality" is not particularly logical, and it's an untenable position that weakens neutrality as a concept by making it impossible to achieve.


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

2 edits

In Every ISP ToS Is Exactly the Problem

It is an inappropriate restriction.

If they want to differentiate between business and residential it has nothing to do with "servers". It is a consumption, SLA and support issue. Use of the term "server" is too broad.

We pay for x bandwidth. Restricting how it is used is net neutrality violation.

--
Be a Good Netizen - Read, Know & Complain About Overly Restrictive Tyrannical ISP ToS & AUP »comcast.net/terms/ »verizon.net/policies/
Say Thanks with a Tool Points Donation


AnonMan

@comcast.net

1 recommendation

reply to Eek2121

Re: 3 options

Don't sell a 1Gbps service and say you are selling to to help innovate and spawn things but yet technically anything you do can be considered hosting a server and thus violate.

I got nothing against business vs. res service except for the price difference is a joke. NOW that said, I agree business class should exist still and be a little more but in return offer much better SLA, CS etc.

The internet gets cheaper every day to deliver and faster. Make it so res customers are limited to 1 static IP and business as many as they want, say you can't resell service and say on res you will get no SLA and CS during normal business hours.

Business can have SLA and 24/7 support with less hassle for help and charge maybe 1.5x more. This 3-4x+ more business get rapped is a joke.

You can't say res person using 1Gbps non stop is any worse vs. a business. You are either selling unlimited bandwidth or you're not. The only rule should be don't use it for commercial to make money off or expect any extra when needing help. That's what business should pay for but these companies use it as a way to rape based on usage though when these days business use less bandwidth vs. the home users. 5 years ago it was the other way around.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to Eek2121

Re: But...

If you're hosting that mail server on a residential connection with no RDNS, chances are that a goodly portion of your mail is going right into spam folders. Many RBLs treat any mail coming from known DSL or cable IP ranges as being sent by known spammers by default.
--
Latest version of CapSavvy systray usage checker: »CapSavvy v4.2 released!

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to kevinds

Re: there is a lot wrong here, but you seem to be agreeing ??

It's a VPS. DigitalOcean, I use them for work and we have multiple "droplets" in their SF data center.

Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ
reply to Guspaz

Re: But...

We are on a business DSL connection, but the ranges are different from residential. I was merely pointing out that reverse DNS wasn't necessary.
--
My beta Ruby on Rails tutorial site!


ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Brighton, MA
reply to Mr Anon
even if they did DPI, you can get around it by tunneling all of your traffic through a server in a data center.
--
A sane approach to our federal budget: Ignore the tea party

viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25

1 recommendation

reply to anonphoneuse

Re: should be no difference in residential and business services

What you seem to be suggesting with your desire for "different size packages with various speeds, data quota, etc." is METERED residentual broadband, which many on this site (myself included) absolutely despise. I still have my grandfathered Verizon unlimited data plan as a result. My ISP (Qwest, now Centurylink) has recently reduced my monthly limit from 500g to 250g, and if I could do anything about it, I would (except I am in a rural area, and they are the only real provider here). Advocating for anything that leads to metered residential broadband is a HUGE mistake (IMHO).

Edited to indicate residential


P Ness
You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
Premium
join:2001-08-29
way way out
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to BlueC

Re: Quite standard

how can you "abuse your connection" when you are given a 1gb tier..and you actually use it?

its like giving me 10,000 minutes on my cell phone plan then kicking me because I used over nine thousand of them??

really they need to cut down on the advertising abuse telling you how fast their teir are and ignoring the need to tell you how much of it you are really allowed to use.
--
NO U


tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 edit
reply to anonphoneuse

Re: should be no difference in residential and business services

said by anonphoneuse :

in this day and age of home start ups and small home offices ...

Would make sense in a virtual world where we all lived in the same virtual data center with exactly the same cost per bit.
In the real world, where the cost per bit and delivery to each locale is different, it really doesn't work at all.
If your last mile is particularly long and expensive to serve, you can't expect the person in an office right off the backbone to subsidize your location, just as you don't choose to subsidize his (likely) more expensive office space.