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Comments on news posted 2013-07-31 12:38:48: The other day I noted that an individual by the name of Douglas McClendon had filed a complaint with the FCC, claiming that the company's TOS language blocking the use of servers is a network neutrality violation. ..


Mr Anon

@k12.il.us

But...

I'd like to point out that your favorite whipping boy of an ISP lets me hosts servers including Mail (without any smarthosts) on my residential connection.

Other than that one footnote I could care less. If I had the chance to have Google Fiber I'd run whatever I could get away with and only be slightly miffed if they did A) Deep packet inspection, B) Active Finger printing.

Alex J

@184.105.146.x

Re: But...

I'd like to point out that your favorite whipping boy of an ISP lets me hosts servers including Mail (without any smarthosts) on my residential connection.

The piece clearly notes that even bigger, nastier ISPs with mean streaks (like AT&T) include the language but don't enforce it. I doubt Google planned to, either. It's there as a failsafe for extremely abusive customers.

Mr Anon

@k12.il.us

Re: But...

Is the article correct is the question.
The last TOS I can remember signing had no such provisions. Also port 25 is blocked outbound on residential connections, you must request (and now pay I believe) to have it removed. AT&T knows that I am running an email server on my residential connection and they don't care.

Just noting that there are exceptions. Besides what good is symmetrical 1Gbps connection if you can't roll your own?

Alex J

@184.105.146.x

Re: But...

The last TOS I can remember signing had no such provisions.

Keep in mind the word "server" isn't always used, but there's nearly always language in there prohibiting either commercial usage of the line, excessive consumption, or both. There's also often various agreements users have to click through, from the AUP to the general TOS, to the privacy policy. Some language to this effect is there for nearly every ISP to give them a legal leg to stand on when they force somebody trying to run a business on a 6 Mbps DSL line toward a business-grade connection.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by Mr Anon :

AT&T knows that I am running an email server on my residential connection and they don't care.

Without a smarthost? I ran a mail server on an AT&T dynamic residential account since it was called, "SBC". I even had them remove the outbound port 25 block. Alas, AOL was just one of several services denying access; I had to use a smarthost for sending. Here is a log from an attempt to an AOL account:
20:38:36.670: --- Mon Mar 01 20:38:36 2004 ---
20:38:36.705: Connect to '205.188.158.25', timeout 60.
20:38:38.274: >> 554- (RTR:BB)  The IP address you are using to connect to AOL is a dynamic<cr><cr><lf>
20:38:38.310: >> 554- (residential) IP address.  AOL will not accept future e-mail transactions<cr><cr><lf>
20:38:38.347: >> 554- from this IP address until your ISP removes this IP address from its list<cr><cr><lf>
20:38:38.405: >> 554- of dynamic (residential) IP addresses.  For additional information,<cr><cr><lf>
20:38:38.445: >> 554  please visit http://postmaster.info.aol.com.<cr><cr><lf>
20:38:38.480: << EHLO aosake.net<cr><lf>
20:38:38.548: --- Connection closed normally at Mon Mar 01 20:38:38 2004. ---
 

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

kpfx

join:2005-10-28
San Antonio, TX
How are you hosting a mail server without setting up PTR records? I don't know of any ISP that will let you change the reverse DNS lookup for a residential IP.
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ

Re: But...

You don't need reverse DNS for mail to work. We don't have it at work and we send hundreds of emails per day without issues.
--
My beta Ruby on Rails tutorial site!

Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

Re: But...

If you're hosting that mail server on a residential connection with no RDNS, chances are that a goodly portion of your mail is going right into spam folders. Many RBLs treat any mail coming from known DSL or cable IP ranges as being sent by known spammers by default.
--
Latest version of CapSavvy systray usage checker: »CapSavvy v4.2 released!
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ

Re: But...

We are on a business DSL connection, but the ranges are different from residential. I was merely pointing out that reverse DNS wasn't necessary.
--
My beta Ruby on Rails tutorial site!

pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC

Re: But...

Most mail servers will check for forward/reverse DNS pairings. I would highly recommend that you run your mail server with them, doing so is irresponsible:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_···S_checks

rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105

Re: But...

More to the point, AOL and my domain mail servers categorically reject email from addresses which have no PTR record. I don't even care if the forward and reverse lookups don't match; virtually any respectable operation will put at least SOMETHING there for a PTR record. Too much spam eminates from addresses where this isn't the case that I rarely make an exception for this. (Although there are around 30 in an exception table I had to create.) I 4xx any such attempts, and only add an exception if I can verifiably determine whether I want email from you.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.

Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck!
cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
To receive mail, no. To send mail, almost certainly YES. And depending on how restrictive (read: paranoid) the receiver is, your "in a dialup dynamic residential pool" address may be banned.

Mr Anon

@k12.il.us
I get a good mix of sent to spam and not. I don't do any high volume, so once I send a message if a friend doesn't get it I tell them to check the spam, they hit allow once and I'm good.

Most times however I don't have an issue using it.
robo45h

join:2002-06-28
Phoenixville, PA
Actually, my residential ISP, Cavalier Telephone, set up PTR records for my static IP. Not sure they still offer residential since they've been bought, but I'm grandfathered.

ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Brighton, MA
even if they did DPI, you can get around it by tunneling all of your traffic through a server in a data center.
--
A sane approach to our federal budget: Ignore the tea party
ds7

join:2012-11-07
Montpelier, VT

Correcting this abuse is long overdue

Preventing users from running legal software of their own choice on the connection they pay for has always been a network neutrality violation. The fact that the industry has gotten away with this abuse for so long does not make it right.

Network neutrality means not discriminating by the origin/destination or content of packets. No one objects to ISPs limiting bandwidth according to the contract with the customer; and no one objects to rules that customers may not adversely affect others (spam, malware). There is no reason a server can't be run within these rules. The ISPs know this perfectly well, and therefore their pretence that servers must somehow cause bad effects are dishonest. The sole real reason for the prohibition is to extract more money by artificially crippling the "residential" service.

The inherent and historic nature of the internet is "peer to peer". It should be illegal to call a service "internet access" if customers are limited to a consumption-only role - or subjected to content filters, falsification of DNS or other hobbles. When one or a few companies hold a monopoly on the cable lines, phone lines or other basic infrastructure in an area, they must be regulated to protect the public interest in equal rights of communication for everyone - including citizens as well as commercial actors.

Alex J

@184.105.146.x

1 recommendation

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

Preventing users from running legal software of their own choice on the connection they pay for has always been a network neutrality violation. The fact that the industry has gotten away with this abuse for so long does not make it right.

I don't like overly broad TOS, but I think the ISPs have a right to differentiate between residential and business class servers. The language sits there as a tool to handle only the most egregious of offenses (running a full grade commercial server on AT&T U-Verse). Conflating it with network neutrality does the network neutrality movement a disservice. Slamming Google Fiber, who is bringing more competition to the market, for legal language differentiating residential and commercial lines, also kicks the movement in the ass.

Not that there's much of a movement left, the attempt to get real rules passed is all but dead.
Automate

join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA

1 recommendation

said by ds7:

Network neutrality means not discriminating by the origin/destination or content of packets.

Agreed. I think Karl is the one trying to redefine what network neutrality means.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

2 recommendations

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

said by Automate:

said by ds7:

Network neutrality means not discriminating by the origin/destination or content of packets.

Agreed. I think Karl is the one trying to redefine what network neutrality means.

Except I'm not. Network neutrality does not automatically mean you have the right to run commercial grade services on a residential line. There has to be some common sense for the definition of neutrality. Defining it as "I can run my poker and porn empire off of my $70 residential line and anyone who says otherwise is violating neutrality" is not particularly logical, and it's an untenable position that weakens neutrality as a concept by making it impossible to achieve.
Automate

join:2001-06-26
Atlanta, GA

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

Then put no commercial servers in the residential TOS. But don't put "no servers allowed"

BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

then you would need to define "commercial server"

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

For profit.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

What about not-for-profits?

fg8578

join:2009-04-26
Salem, OR

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

In the telco world, a non-profit entity (government agencies, for example) were always required to buy business class phone service, as opposed to residential service. (Some states and telcos provide a third class of service for government or non-profit entities but I'm not talking about those.)

This made sense to me in the telco world and I see no reason the distinction shouldn't apply in the Internet world. Can someone explain why it shouldn't?
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

I understand that. My point was more to be careful with arbitrarily trying to fine something.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
But I have read over and over again on this supposed forum that bandwidth costs ISPs nothing.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:39

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

said by batterup:

But I have read over and over again on this supposed forum that bandwidth costs ISPs nothing.

Surely you can show me where I've EVER said that.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

Re: Correcting this abuse is long overdue

said by Karl Bode:

said by batterup:

But I have read over and over again on this supposed forum that bandwidth costs ISPs nothing.

Surely you can show me where I've EVER said that.

My bad; I forgot I was commenting in a thread with an OP. My comment was directed at the forum in general; the "supposed" also was not directed at any person, living or dead and any similarity is purely coincidental.

baineschile
2600 ways to live
Premium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI

4 recommendations

Sure

According to this site, all other major ISPs are horrible, and violate net neutrality all the time. But not the ever loved Google. They have a $70 1GB connection, so they are forgiven for all.

I wish this site would be the way it used to be, where it reported news, and not just opinions.

GlennAllen
Sunny with highs in the 80s
Premium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA

Re: Sure

Isn't that like asking sportswriters to do away with polls and stop predicting the outcome and scores for games? (never gonna happen)

Mojo77

@he.net

1 recommendation

Cry less, read more. From the piece:

To make it clear Google has absolutely waffled on their original network neutrality principles, and there's plenty to criticize the company for on that front, starting with their decision to work with Verizon to gut real neutrality protections for wireless.

Yeah, really giving them a free pass there.
kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL

2 recommendations

said by baineschile:

..I wish this site would be the way it used to be, where it reported news, and not just opinions.

I think Karl's qualified enough to call it analysis...... this industry is loaded with subjective slant, PR & sock puppet news.

gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall

join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA

3 recommendations

Karl's been drinking the google koolaide for years. I think he was one of the first ones on this site pushing free google email.
It AINT free. The cost for some people is, it seems, their soul.
--
Let them eat FIBER!

••••
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath
That will never happen. Take a look at who's ads and other good things are loaded on this site. Then you'll get the real picture. Google and Spent do no wrong and much is not "reported" by Karl by either when shi* hits the fan with those two. But let it be Comcast and a sub-contractor doing something wrong and the first line reads "reported first by us" when it fact it should be read "blogged first by us". DSLR is much of a blog and Karl's opinions.

dmcnonanon

@sunflower.com

there is a lot wrong here, but you seem to be agreeing ??

I'm too tired to respond to all the wrongness of this article. And amongst all the wrongness, upon first skim it seems like you agree with many of my core points and preferences for change. So I'll wait and comment more later today depending on how the story unfolds. But for a start, where do you get your facts exactly?? TimeWarner Broadband is so not my broadband provider. Honestly I'm so broke I don't have one other my *cough* android phone *cough*. If, AND ONLY IF, I see sanity prevail in this argument, will I likely be willing to once again pay the usual fee for fixed residential broadband, because then I would know I would have a SnowdenPRISMCrash chance in hockey sticks of getting my local broadband providers to give me the freedom of dataspeech on their networks I expect and demand (given FCC-10-201/NN). Later...

••••••
BlueC

join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Integra Telecom

1 recommendation

Quite standard

Pretty much all Residential ISPs forbid commercial use over their connections. However not everyone actively enforces it (e.g. port blocking).

It's really there for the event a subscriber significantly abuses their connection (like hosting a website that generates a large volume of traffic). Residential service is for residential use. I don't see a problem with someone hosting an FTP server that they share with a dozen people, or hosting game servers and whatnot. I'm sure Google doesn't mind it either. But in the event someone decides to be frugal and use their $70/mo connection to host a bunch of a websites, generating a consistently large volume of traffic, yea... I'd shut them down too and stand firmly behind that language outlined in the TOS.

In the end, this is very standard language that pretty much all Residential ISPs include within their TOS. It's there as a technicality for most in the event there is serious abuse. No one should be using a Residential connection for something that requires a large volume of traffic while generating revenue. Otherwise we'd all be paying more for internet access at home. Not to mention this should really be an obvious restriction on both sides. Using a Residential connection with no firm SLA for business-use is about as dumb as it gets.

I still find it somewhat comical that people have something to complain about when they're receiving a symmetrical 1gbps connection for $70/mo. I'd imagine the use of a VPN would pretty much solve the whole "commercial-use" concern anyways. Google wouldn't inquire with the subscriber unless they were saturating the connection 24x7.

•••

anonphoneuse

@comcast.net

should be no difference in residential and business services

in this day and age of home start ups and small home offices there should be absolutely no differentiation between business and residential services. ISPs should offer different size packages with various speeds, data quota, etc. i should be able to signup for any package regardless if i am an individual at home, a small business owner or a large corporation. i pay appropriate for what i order. arbitrage from these connection should be completely fair game. if i wish to rent a house in kansas city with google fiber to run a seedbox business on a bunch of servers than google should have already though about that impact before they launched.

•••••
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Newton, NJ
Reviews:
·FreedomPop

3 options

There isn't anything wrong with what google is doing. Removing these restrictions would cause more harm than good.

1) ISPs can differentiate commercial and residential connections, placing fair restrictions on each (this is what most ISPs including Google do).
2) ISPs can jack up everyone's pricing to commercial rates ($150+ per month depending on the ISP) instead of the $20-$40 that most of us pay now.
3) ISPs can cap residential users to 20 gigs or so.

Which would you prefer?
--
My beta Ruby on Rails tutorial site!

•••••••

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

2 edits

In Every ISP ToS Is Exactly the Problem

It is an inappropriate restriction.

If they want to differentiate between business and residential it has nothing to do with "servers". It is a consumption, SLA and support issue. Use of the term "server" is too broad.

We pay for x bandwidth. Restricting how it is used is net neutrality violation.

--
Be a Good Netizen - Read, Know & Complain About Overly Restrictive Tyrannical ISP ToS & AUP »comcast.net/terms/ »verizon.net/policies/
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•••
kmcmurtrie

join:2006-04-18
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

Garbage ISPs

Just as one might claim that nearly all TOS prohibit personal servers, one might also claim nearly all ISPs are reaping the benefits of having no competition. That doesn't make it right to prohibit personal servers.

My ISP doesn't prohibit it.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

Hey, you never know..

This probably won't amount to much.. but you dont' have to look far to throw a stone at Comcast, Time Warner, and AT&T to see they've been apt to take advantage of customers (litigous of their rights) for corporate gain. Tier bandwidth consumption limits, caps, throttling and overage have reared their heads before. No doubt google will steer clear of this kind of controversy, but dont' expect google to be taken over a barrel for thousands of dollars worth of pinned (speed needle) gigabit usage either it's just not going to happen.

Use common sense when you've been given a prize virtually noone else gets in a residential location.. sheesh! It's going to be several more years before gigabit hits the northeast at fair/affordable prices. You're more likely to win the lottery than see google put severe limits on gigabit usage.
mrwiggles

join:2013-06-10
Sherman, TX

False Advertising

Why is everyone here agreeing that businesses should pay more? Yes, I understand that every ISP has these clauses, but is it right? If you are not allowed to use the "unlimited" bandwidth, then it isn't really unlimited is it? It sounds like the only benefit to a business account is an SLA. For some people, a 100%+ premium for an SLA just isn't really worth it. To me, these practices seem to be nothing more than extortion.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FiOS

Re: False Advertising

said by mrwiggles:

Why is everyone here agreeing that businesses should pay more?

Because the market will bear it. It is the same reason the gas station on a busy corner can charge more for gas.
--
Nocchi rules.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

Re: False Advertising?!?

Think about what you could actually USE a symmetrical gigabit for... divide 1000mbits (or whatever throughput you actually get) by 5, 10, 15, 20, 50, 75 (etc) chunks and this could be utilized in a way with hosting various data applications such as hi-def video channels, porn, HDTV streams, etc that consumes bandwidth in a way contrary to ordinary residential use. That is commercial grade service level (usually done by hosting companies and seed-boxes in data centers). What if somebody doesn't like the fact that they have to pay $70 and want to SUBSIDIZE their cost by reselling access to this bandwidth(content) or use it in a way to make money or personal gain... these are commercial grade examples of abuse which should have a higher cost to that subscriber....

Playing devils advocate here.. what if a number of people did the same.. your $70 a month service could go up to $150, or $250 for everybody.. that wouldn't be cool.. Wouldn't it be better to tread lightly for now? As time goes on, these applications might be justified in a larger context of other companies offering similar bandwidth, but not today. Cable companies were bashing subscribers over the head about the cannibalization of video with petty little 15, 25, 50, and now 100 megabit tiers.. as an excuse to raise prices. I believe google's artificially low price point is a thorn in the sides of incumbents and they'd love to see google raise prices on the basis of a failure of their model.

The applications envisioned by Google were for personal consumption of bandwidth with an active user sending or receiving a 1:1, 2:2, 5:5 streams.... not a host box spitting out as much bandwidth as is available on a continuous basis for 15, 20, 50 users, etc. Certainly not the paying of 1 cable tv subscription and reselling it to 50 of your closest friends. It's obvious we're talking about commercial abuse of a residential account. I'm not sure what the intent of the guy filing the FCC complaint was up to, but many of these kinds of applications are a grey area anyway depending upon what the content is.. even if the content is 100% legit, these [legit] applications are not done by 99.9999% of residential customers on a continuous basis and those who do should get ready for google to ask for more money to do so (data centers charge a multiple of what google is charging for this bandwidth because they PAY a multiple of what google is offering to residential accounts, provided it isn't abused).. this has nothing to do about net neutrality but fairness and adherence to acceptable use practices.

Just calculate how much bandwidth could be utilized at when 120-125 MEGABYTES of data can be sent/recieved EVERY SECOND of every HOUR of every DAY... I expect google to be more forgiving then a Verizon.. but by how much??
bvierra

join:2011-07-17
North Hollywood, CA

It's way overblown

It is being way overblown and most of the FUD seems to be about a basic misunderstanding of how the internet works. Remember the entire internet is based on overselling, you don't sell 10 connections @ 1Gbps because you have a 10Gbps uplink, you sell a few hundred.

I am sure that Google could care less if you run a server or not on the connection, data is data. What matters however is the amount of data that is continuously used on the line, a residential user that uses 750Mbps (hey we are talking about a Gbps connection here) for a few hours every day with low usage (let's say 10Mbps) for the majority of the rest of their time will cost a lot less than someone who consistently pushes 200-300Mbps because of a few servers.

Now let's say Google puts 100 connections for every 10Gbps uplink (realistically it's higher than this, but still), usually people aren't going to use anywhere near that 1Gbps and if they do it's for a second or two at most. Even at peak times they have plenty of room to spare and everyone is happy. Now let's say that 50 of that 100 is hosting servers pushing 200Mbps, uh oh... there goes the entire uplink.

If people want to run servers that are going to consume enough BW that Google will even notice, they really need to be in a Data Center and paying for the sustained BW.

You also have to remember a blanket statement like that is there for a reason, could you imagine if they tried to explain that your Gbps connection came with a 100Mbps 95th % and TOS says you cannot use more than that? Try explaining that either before the contract is signed or the poor guy in the call center trying to explain it over the phone to someone. This was to make things much easier on the consumer, blanket it but do not enforce unless they go overboard.

Would people be happier with a 1Gb down / 50Mb up? Or would you rather have that full burst available at all times for when you need it? In return Google asks that you not be an ass and use up the entire connection.

TL;DR It's a blanket statement to save the call center guys from committing suicide, if you don't abuse the privilege and sustain too much traffic Google could care less what you do on it.

•••••
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Google

Google, built this network so people could USE IT and expand and develop new and exciting things; hence all the talk about new start-ups that are moving to KS/MO's area (which hardly any did) so why limit your target market. By this Google NEVER really wanted to be in the business to start off with but just be another provider providing a network connection and telling YOU how you can use it after all. So why go back on what they said? Well, it's not the first time they've done that with this network and surely won't be the last. Google is only out to make money off your data stream and that is it. This proves that Google is nothing but a typical ISP but gets great ratings and reviews from such as employees on this website and members. But what will happen when Google really starts treating customers the way as other ISPs??? Nothing will be said, except Google is NOT evil and people thank them for Gmail- the spam ridden service attached to the NSA.

fjpoblam

@comcast.net

I agree

Please note this sentence carefully, reading twice, if necessary: I *agree* with your judgment. Then, please note this: I do *not* agree that you should use "everybody else is doing it" as a supporting argument.

Infostack

@rr.com

Google's paradox necessary to protect ad monopoly

Google is attacking the residential market exclusively to spur the last mile duopolies (telco and cable) to upgrade their plant. If all market segments were to go to ubiquitous fiber (residential, enterprise, fiber to DAS/wireless) then the marginal cost would drop 99% and the revenue model would invert to a centralized procurement model. The edge would subsidize the core and we'd see commercial VPNs to drive commercial transactions at 80% and subscription at 20%. In the process, Google would lose its hold on its advertising monopoly. »bit.ly/1670oOx