  FFHPremium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 | Obey the law or go out of business Obey the law or go out of business. That was his choice and he made it. NSLs are legal. He could obey them; sue to stop them; lobby Congress; or go out of business. Or ignore the law and fight the DOJ in court when they arrest him for breaking the law. He made his choice.
I think NSLs are a legitimate way to investigate terrorism. He evidently disagrees, as is his right. But if you can't obey the law, then you have to pay the piper.
--
"If you want to anger a conservative lie to him.
If you want to anger a liberal tell him the truth." | |
|
 | |
| | |
|  skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Re: Obey the law or go out of business Stop the endless march of totalitarianism, or become serfs of regime.
It is amazing how people love oppressive regimes.
--
Nocchi rules. | |
|
| |  BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
1 recommendation | Re: Obey the law or go out of business said by skeechan:Stop the endless march of totalitarianism, or become serfs of regime.
It is amazing how people love oppressive regimes.
It's amazing people actually believe like you. Seriously do you actually spend every waking day thinking that some evil totalitarian government is just right around the corner? Honestly if I actually believed that I would just go ahead and kill myself. People that actually believe in these conspiracy theories and chicken little scenarios must be very unhappy people always thinking the end of freedom is near. And I actually kind of pity them. | |
|
| | | jp10558Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY | Re: Obey the law or go out of business Except every month it seems another "conspiracy theory" is proven correct. Till Snowden, I thought it was a conspiracy theory that the US govt was watching everything done online, now we know it is true.
I can't see how the US govt isn't totalitarian at this point - it just "allows" you more actions that you personally expect a totalitarian goverment to allow. That doesn't mean it allows the same actions to everyone (see all the well documented "selective" enforcement of laws), nor that it won't choose to deny you some action at any time in secret without appeal to courts or the public.
--
Opera 11.1; Windows XP Pro SP3;Intel C2Q6600; 3GB DDR2 1066; 1M/128k DSL; Comodo Internet Security 5.3;Proxomitron 4.5j Sidki 2009-06-06,GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3 | |
|
| | | | | | Re: Obey the law or go out of business "you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you"
"see, i was just a trendsetter, ahead of the curve"
"atleast i now know i am not paranoid/crazy" | |
|
| | | | | It's not around the corner. It's here. Wake up. | |
|
| | |  NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind awayPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:9
2 recommendations | said by BF69:People that actually believe in these conspiracy theories and chicken little scenarios must be very unhappy people always thinking the end of freedom is near.
In 1972 I was paid off by the U.S. Army in Ft. Myer, Virginia. I drove cross country to Naval Base San Diego to visit my brother, who was still in the U.S. Navy. I encountered one police officer in rural Missouri, who was concerned that I might be a deserter. I showed him my DD-214, which settled that matter. He then suggested a better place to crash for the night; where I wouldn't be disturbed, or a disturbance. And then there was the California ag inspection station, where they were just concerned with pests hitch hiking on produce. LEOs were actually polite, pleasant, and helpful back then.
I used to prowl the Marin headlands shortly after my return. I'd drive right up to the chain link fence around one of the Nike-Hercules launch sites of SF-88, and not be hassled by any M16 armed guards. Traveled to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and Denver, Colorado by air, and only had to present a boarding pass at the gate.
Now our LEAs are militarized, and view non-locals with great distrust. Police perform body cavity searches on routine traffic stops. We have warrantless wiretaps, and get stopped for no reason at all (reported by one of my sisters on a recent cross country drive). We submit to warrantless searches at airports; and soon the TSA will bring them to your local bus and train stations. The U.S. Congress periodically considers a national ID card.
The reality of travel is so different today from just forty-one years ago. We actually have slipped into a surveillance/security state mentality. It isn't my imagination; it is today's reality. If you are under thirty years old, you probably can't remember the way it was back then (well, except for minorities; they were always treated like dirt).
Today, unless you are a part of the Government Elite, you are viewed by them as a, "Threat". It isn't a "conspiracy" theory when you are seeing it as it happens.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
|
| | | |  tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
 ·Comcast
| Re: Obey the law or go out of business said by NormanS: ...Police perform body cavity searches on routine traffic stops..... Norman, I understand what you are generally saying, but that one frequently repeated line implies this is a common and legal practice.
In the few verified instances it has happened the LEO's have lost their jobs, and the dept's in question have been sued or made generous settlements.
Roadside body cavity searches are uncommon and illegal acts by individual officers, and are in no way endorsed by any law enforcement agency. | |
|
| | | Reviews:
·Comcast
 ·Callcentric
| said by BF69:said by skeechan:Stop the endless march of totalitarianism, or become serfs of regime.
It is amazing how people love oppressive regimes.
It's amazing people actually believe like you. Seriously do you actually spend every waking day thinking that some evil totalitarian government is just right around the corner? Honestly if I actually believed that I would just go ahead and kill myself. People that actually believe in these conspiracy theories and chicken little scenarios must be very unhappy people always thinking the end of freedom is near. And I actually kind of pity them. After all the government scandals that has come out, You still claim everything is a conspiracy theory. Turn off the mainstream media, dude! | |
|
| | | | skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Re: Obey the law or go out of business No kidding...the "black helicopter" lands in the front yard and people are still in denial.
--
Nocchi rules. | |
|
| | Roop
join:2003-11-15
Ottawa, ON | Before I start, please consider I am not attacking anyone, but I have strong disagreements with what is written here.
Point 1:
I see a strong will in the serfs to welcome oppression. They cannot find happiness on their own so instead they welcome things to be unhappy about and in some sick way, take joy in being unhappy.
Sit and chat with some of them and observe how much they like to complain about their lives, and how little they tell you about what makes them happy, or if they even remember the last time they were happy. I think what Linklist wrote is an example of what I am touching on. He seems to welcome this oppression.
Point 2:
"Obey the law or go out of business"
Goldman Sachs "obeys the law" by having their execs in the whitehouse. Other companies "obey the law" by lobbying with nearly unlimited resources. If they law is broken, it should not be agreed to. Ultimatums should not be made.
I wholeheartedly disagree with "Obey the law or go out of business"
Point 3:
Kudos to Lavabit. This is significantly better than being complicit, but I wonder if better options existed to stay in buisness and not be complicit (moving out of the US, etc). | |
|
|  GlennAllenSunny with highs in the 80sPremium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA | So, what you're saying is... everyone in the NSA and several other TLAs is going to jail... or getting tossed out onto the street. Good. | |
|
|  pnjunctionTeksavvy ExtremePremium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
2 recommendations | Traffic fatalities: 30,000+ per year
Terrorism fatalities: less than 100 per year
How would you feel about GPS and other monitoring to make sure everyone is driving safely? Why are some people willing to accept such an invasion for such a minor problem in the grand scheme of things?
Terrorism is just murder by another name, and a small percentage of murders at that. The founders of your country didn't feel that it was worth it to throw your freedom of speech and right privacy under the bus to catch a few murderers, why do you? | |
|
| | skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Re: Obey the law or go out of business Certainly OP would endorse it, a police state will create a utopia.
--
Nocchi rules. | |
|
| | FFHPremium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
1 edit | said by pnjunction:Terrorism is just murder by another name, and a small percentage of murders at that.
Actually, it isn't the same. A terrorism attack has a grossly outsize effect on the nations economy and political stability. A plane crashes, 200 die, and who cares except their families and the airline. A terrorist kills a couple people in Boston and the city grinds to a halt. That is reality, whether you like it or not.
300 each are murdered every year in most major US cities. Other than calls for a little more police, nobody cares.
If terrorists killed several thousand in the US every year, the calls for military takeover and martial law would be deafening.
--
"If you want to anger a conservative lie to him.
If you want to anger a liberal tell him the truth." | |
|
| | | skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 Reviews:
 ·Verizon FiOS
·Cox HSI
 ·Clear Wireless
| Re: Obey the law or go out of business said by FFH:300 each are murdered very year in most major US cities. Other than calls for a little more police, nobody cares.
Tell that to Detroit which is bankrupt because business cared...and left.
--
Nocchi rules. | |
|
| | | GlennAllenSunny with highs in the 80sPremium
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| said by FFH:If terrorists killed several thousand in the US every year, the calls for military takeover and martial law would be deafening.
Idiots and cowards call out for all kinds of stupid things... always have, always will. | |
|
| | | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | So technically US drone strikes are Terrorism. | |
|
| | tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·Comcast
| If you lived in the US, you'd know the GPS among other sensor already monitors your driving and records it to a black box in your vehicle, Should you be thought to be one of the causative factors in a major accident, the police, the NTSB And you insurance company are among those that will get a copy and penalize you into better habit (or walking) pretty sure even "no Fault" Canada does something similar.
And many people don't wish to wait until the terrorism tolls hit 30k before TRYING to slow it down. | |
|
| | | CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1
1 recommendation | Re: Obey the law or go out of business said by tshirt: And many people don't wish to wait until the terrorism tolls hit 30k before TRYING to slow it down.
Hell, NSAIDs kill about that many each year and no one seems too concerned with slowing that down! | |
|
| | | | tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4 | Re: Obey the law or go out of business actual they increased the label restrictions in 2009 and are adding more new precautions now.
| |
|
| | | |
| | | Kamus
join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX | said by tshirt: And many people don't wish to wait until the terrorism tolls hit 30k before TRYING to slow it down.
They are not serious about stopping terrorism; if they were, they'd go straight for the jugular... but they don't. same with the "war on drugs".
I'll explain:
We already know what drives fundamentalists. And if they were really serious about stopping them, they' cut the bullshit and try to push for secular education in all of those regions.
As long as religion is the state in islamic countries, the problem won't go away. (the internet will help a LOT, but this NEEDS to be tackled at the root!)
Same thing with the war on drugs... the fix is stupidly simple. So long as drug cartels can keep making money selling them, the problem won't go away. And we know of one sure fire way of doing that (legalizing them) but that gets ignored, and instead they just deal with it with violence.
If you think the government has spend so much money on tracking people just to keep them safe, you are incredibly naive. Sure, it's a great excuse. But someone is going to rip the benefits of it all, and you can be sure it's not going to be the population in general. | |
|
| | | | | | Re: Obey the law or go out of business Terrorism doest not equate to religion nor does religion equate to terrorism. You saying otherwise is just silly.
It is an extremist point of view regardless of religion. | |
|
| | | | | The black box in a car saves about 30 seconds of very specific data. You really want to compare that to what the US government is collecting?
We dont need to slow down terrorism as it NEVER sped up or amounted to anything in the US. Far less have been killed by terrorism in the history of the world than were killed last year by others doing even lawful things. It is a made up war to spend billions on pet projects and to justify intrusion into private lives and people like you buy into it. | |
|
|
1 recommendation | Being legal and being right are two different things.
Looks like with NSLs you can obey the law, and ALSO pay the piper. | |
|
| CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1 | Technically, the choices were Agree to break the law or go out of business. I think he made the right decision, too bad some won't. | |
|
| | | said by FFH:Obey the law or go out of business. That was his choice and he made it. NSLs are legal. He could obey them; sue to stop them; lobby Congress; or go out of business. Or ignore the law and fight the DOJ in court when they arrest him for breaking the law. He made his choice.
I think NSLs are a legitimate way to investigate terrorism. He evidently disagrees, as is his right. But if you can't obey the law, then you have to pay the piper.
Make sure you lace up those jackboots real tight, TK. | |
|
| Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
1 recommendation | said by FFH:NSLs are legal. Judge Susan Illston of Federal District Court in San Francisco disagrees with you.
said by FFH:I think NSLs are a legitimate way to investigate terrorism. So Snowden is a terrorist now?
And since when did the Constitution not apply because of the magical word "terrorism"? Can you should me the amendment that says all legal protections are suspended when the word "terrorism" is used? Or the amendment that says the government gets to decide where and when the Constitution applies?
NSLs violate the fourth amendment because they don't require judicial oversight and they violate the first amendment because they prevent people from talking about them. | |
|
| | FFHPremium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5 | Re: Obey the law or go out of business Looks like NSLs weren't involved here after all. Just a plain old warrant issued by a court and not the FISA court.
»www.zdnet.com/snowdens-privacy-o···0019185/
The outrage over overly broad surveillance of U.S. citizens by the NSA doesn’t seem to apply here. Snowden freely admitted that he had broken the law in an act of civil disobedience. He has been indicted on three counts of espionage, theft, and conversion of government property. The criminal complaint was filed not in the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court but in the United States District Court in Virginia.
In a post on Google+, CNET’s Declan McCullagh speculated that Lavabit had been served with a court order to intercept passwords and possibly encryption keys, that they had fought the order for six weeks and lost, and had shut down the service rather than comply.
--
"If you want to anger a conservative lie to him.
If you want to anger a liberal tell him the truth." | |
|
| | | I guess I can understand why someone would think that way, but I think its reflects very poorly on you.
There are laws and rights more important than those passed by Congress. | |
|
| | | said by FFH: NSLs are legal. He could obey them "My lord, is that legal?"
"I will MAKE it legal!" | |
|
| pawpaw
join:2004-05-05
Greenville, SC | If only someone had told Rosa Parks the same thing... | |
|
| |
••• |
| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | Wait, I thought you hated government regulation that forced businesses to close? | |
|
| |
•••• |
|  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Why? So many other Corporations don't and are rewarded handsomely. All you have to do is side with the evil-doers. | |
|
| | | If you have the time or inclination give this article from the recent print issue of NSFWCORP.com a read (»nsfw-live.s3.amazonaws.com/inves···YKUMO7GQ). It's about NDAs (and their history) not NSLs, but they've become functionally the same.
Also this: Book Discussion on Deal with the Devil (Aug 3, 2013) »www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Dealwi (sorry both links are longreads/watches).
tl;dr (of above links) Somehow the government has been able to manage and capture criminals since the beginning of the Republic while those same criminals knew the methods and tactics used against them. Now for some reason, if the they know, the jig is up so to speak and we'll never get them. The only thing secrecy does is hide the illegal/incompetent things the government does. | |
|
clone
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN | He can, and must speak. He can say whatever he wants. Any law that violates the Constitution of the United States is null and void, and therefore cannot be used to incriminate someone.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Anyone who threatens him otherwise is in violation of the law of the land and should be tried for treason.
I'll be here patiently waiting for the shill brigade to somehow argue with that. | |
|
|
•••••••••• |
MaggsLife is awesomePremium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY Reviews:
·RCN CABLE
| Always assume... government does not act in your best interests. Just look at the civil forfeit laws in PA, where they name the address of a house as a defendant and the homeowner who may have no connection to the crime committed in the house gets penalized. They take title to your house and tell you "tough luck" and when they sell it, it goes into the general assets of the police so they can use it on salaries and benefits of the drug enforcement teams. That's unjust enrichment, coercion, and theft by deception if you ask me. Go read that link and learn for yourself how corrupt government works.
»www.ij.org/asset-forfeiture-repo···sylvania
--
Walking Overnight in DC on June 1-2, come out and be awesome! | |
|
|
••• |
 tmpchaosRequiescat in paceCo-Lead Mod
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ
1 recommendation | (topic offline) troll Moderator Action
This entire topic was removed, either temporarily, or permanently.
stated reason was: taking out the trash. | |
|
CXM_SplicerLooking at the bigger picturePremium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1 | Looks like a Red Flag to me I think it is safe to assume that any remaining company claiming to provide secure, encrypted email is (or will soon be) lying. In fact, I would go so far as to say the lowest price services (and therefore very popular) are being subsidized with tax payer money in exchange for 'full government access'. | |
|
|
••••• |
| | Drone strikes terrorism?? quote:
Kearnstd said: "So technically US drone strikes are Terrorism."
You betcha!!!
note.. posting my reply this way due to a bug in the reply function...
try {
var e = document.getElementById('sessfield');
if (e.value == '') {
optimizeYouTubeEmbeds();
imc_boot();
e.value='f';
} else {
imc_update();
}
} catch (e) {} | |
|
|
|
