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Comments on news posted 2013-08-09 14:40:24: Yesterday secure e-mail operator Lavabit announced they were closing up shop, strongly hinting they'd been forced via Patriot Act to not only spy on customers, but were gagged from talking about. ..

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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

If so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep .....

If they were so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep their other secure services: Silent Phone, Silent Text and Silent Eyes?

Rather than security concerns and some type of protest against the gov't, which Silent Circle has admitted has made zero demands for their customers info, maybe they are just killing off an unprofitable service.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan

Member

What a sad state of affairs...

Look what's happening now... It's pathetic.

"Candidate" Obama should run against "incumbent" Obama.... oh wait....
IPPlanMan

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Re: If so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep .....

said by FFH5:

If they were so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep their other secure services: Silent Phone, Silent Text and Silent Eyes?

Rather than security concerns and some type of protest against the gov't, which Silent Circle has admitted has made zero demands for their customers info, maybe they are just killing off an unprofitable service.

If any demands were made, they wouldn't be able to say. They didn't let it get to that point.

Not profitable? Pure speculation on your part.
Tiger51
join:2008-08-05
Miami, FL

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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

Your buddy George W was the architect of the Patriot Act, maybe he should get some blame.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

They're exactly right

said by Silent Circle :

There are far too many leaks of information and metadata intrinsically in the email protocols themselves. Email as we know it with SMTP, POP3, and IMAP cannot be secure.

Exactly. You can encrypt the body of email but both the sender and receiver(s) must be able to deal with that. Most people don't bother doing it.

What you can do is send/receive email between a client (PC/Tablet/phone/etc) to/from a server using an encrypted connection. However it transverse the internet in plain text.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

Obama has had 2 chances to kill the Patriot Act and he renewed it both times
both are to blame

Rambo76098
join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH

Rambo76098

Member

Overseas

Sounds like secure services are going to have to move operations and servers overseas to continue operations outside of the jurisdiction of the NSA/FBI etc.
firedrakes
join:2009-01-29
Arcadia, FL

firedrakes

Member

wont help. usa will bitch and whine and the country will allow them to take it down
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

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Re: They're exactly right

Well, if you trust the app developer to write a secure app, then you can encrypt the message contents from end to end. However, the routing information has to be in the clear; otherwise, the message can't be delivered.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the current e-mail delivery system. Sure, some will say that a new system could encrypt delivery information so it's only readable to the sending and receiving mail servers, but if the government can essentially demand access to those servers, then encryption does you no good. In that case, the only encryption that matters is true end-to-end encryption using a mail client installed on the computers, tablets, etc.

However, the best cure for these shenanigans is a high-profile court case. Someone needs to stand up and say no, they refuse to bend over for these kinds of demands and dare the government to take them to court. For that to happen, the EFF and ACLU need to get together, round up some really good attorneys who will take the case either pro bono or for whatever money these two organizations can pay (so there's no cost to the client) and then post a hypothetical scenario where they'll jump into action, then wait to be contacted by someone. Basically, these groups and their legal team need to fully back the client all the way to the Supreme Court. Make the thing as high-profile as they can get away with. Do that, and I bet you'll see the feds back off of this shit.

Camelot One
MVM
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Re: Overseas

said by Rambo76098:

Sounds like secure services are going to have to move operations and servers overseas to continue operations outside of the jurisdiction of the NSA/FBI etc.

By being overseas, all data to and from them then falls under perfectly legal NSA snooping programs.

CosmicDebri
Still looking for intelligent life
join:2001-09-01
Lake City, FL

CosmicDebri

Member

Why are we getting the same story 2 days in a row?

This is a trend I've noticed for quite awhile actually....... this particular story was the last item from yesterday and that is happening all the time.....

Can't be a shortage of news....
en103
join:2011-05-02

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Re: If so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep .....

Didn't you read the full info - those services are 'end to end secure'.
App services like email require a host - which can be compromised.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

I guess there's only so much "change we can believe in".... Haven't heard that phrase in a while.

Forward... off a cliff.

Funny how you think George W's still president... Obama owns this. Can't spin your way out of that one.

tshirt
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Snohomish, WA

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said by Tiger51:

Your buddy George W was the architect of the Patriot Act, maybe he should get some blame.

GWB took the blame, the Cheney gang pushed most of the buttons.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

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Re: If so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep .....

Because once you receive a court order you are then 100% required to maintain everything covered by that order.

As they stated, they have not received any such court order thus can shutdown and destroy 100% of their data with no fear of being prosecuted for it.
en103
join:2011-05-02

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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

I agree.

IPPlanMan
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Re: If so worried about gov't intrusion, why did they keep .....

Exactly right.

mackey
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Re: They're exactly right

said by StuartMW:

However it transverse the internet in plain text.

said by ISurfTooMuch:

However, the routing information has to be in the clear; otherwise, the message can't be delivered.

So much misinformation in this thread....

As someone who runs a mail server, I can assure you it is possible to have end-to-end encryption with e-mail. However, both/all servers must support it. SSL encryption (the same encryption used for https: websites) between servers has been around for years, yet gmail is the only large provider using it from what I can see in my logs.

Aug  5 16:01:06 postfix/smtp[25620]: setting up TLS connection to gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[2607:f8b0:4002:c01::1a]:25
Aug  5 16:01:07 postfix/smtp[25620]: Trusted TLS connection established to gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[2607:f8b0:4002:c01::1a]:25: TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)
Aug  5 16:01:11 postfix/smtp[25620]: <snip>: to=<<snip>@gmail.com>, relay=gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[2607:f8b0:4002:c01::1a]:25, delay=5.3, delays=0.26/0.27/0.22/4.6, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 OK <snip> <snip> - gsmtp)
 

So, in this case, my e-mail client connects to my server using encryption (IMAPS), my server then uses encryption to send it to gmail (SMTPS), and gmail clients use encryption when viewing the message (HTTPS). The only way any sender or recipient info, other then the recipient's domain name (which can be sniffed from the DNS lookup), can be discovered is if either my or gmail's servers are compromised.

/M

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

1 edit

StuartMW

Premium Member

Your example simply shows that when you send (or receive) email from the Gmail server the connection is encrypted. I said that
said by StuartMW:

What you can do is send/receive email between a client (PC/Tablet/phone/etc) to/from a server using an encrypted connection.

Now if the email leaves Gmail's servers--that is transverse the internet to, say, Yahoo it will be in plain text (the body of the message could be encrypted).

On the other hand if another Gmail user reads an email, via an encrypted connection from the same server you sent it to (i.e. it never transverse the internet) then in theory it may never appear in plain text (depending upon how Google stored it etc).

The point is that email does not generally go from sender to receiver but via a series of intermediate servers. Those servers must be able to read the headers which is why they're in plain text. As for the body the servers don't care so they can be encrypted or not.
quote:
Today's email systems are based on a store-and-forward model. Email servers accept, forward, deliver, and store messages. Neither the users nor their computers are required to be online simultaneously; they need connect only briefly, typically to an email server, for as long as it takes to send or receive messages.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email




»blog.hostbaby.com/2010/0 ··· elivery/

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Neard shack too.

I had email form both and wondered why they stopped working. I even used one for a banking account. I guess you get what you pay for. Paperless billing, never again; thank you Barry.

This form the owners of Lavabit; he states he is gagged from saying he had to close.

»lavabit.com/
Dissonance
join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY

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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

said by IPPlanMan:

Funny how you think George W's still president... Obama owns this. Can't spin your way out of that one.

No they both own it. Bush started it and Obama continued it. Both parties in our 2 party system are corrupt.
TBBroadband
join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

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Re: Why are we getting the same story 2 days in a row?

I think its the reporters doing. At times it even removes the comments and reposts right away the next day as well. And its happened well before moving to the cloud.

IPPlanMan
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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

It's funny how people continue to fault Bush to justify whatever actions Obama takes or doesn't take.

George W. Bush, the president of perpetual fault. It's frankly amusing to watch the hero worship of Obama. The man who talks about "Washington" as if he's not actually the current President: A level of narcissism that we've never seen before.

Obama can blame himself for what he inherited from himself.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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KrK

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It's funny how people also strictly focus on Obama and leave their party out of it. It feeds into their ideology that although both are bad, theirs is "better" and therefore they are comfortable with supporting their (R). In this they are dead wrong, they should be pushing to overthrow their (R) party as much as they rail against the (D) party.

Mikesco
@charter.com

Mikesco

Anon

What we need is

A standard e-mail program that splits an optionally encrypted message randomly through multiple servers maintained by different providers into essentially a hundred e-mails and mails them off over a period of say 5 minutes and at the receiving end is able to glue them back together. That may still not be fool proof but at least would make things much more difficult.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

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Re: Why are we getting the same story 2 days in a row?

said by CosmicDebri:

This is a trend I've noticed for quite awhile actually....... this particular story was the last item from yesterday and that is happening all the time.....

Can't be a shortage of news....

While articles of importance seem to be recycled (kicked-up) every once in a while, this is a new article (key word "another") that I suspect we'll be seeing more and more with key words "and yet another".
Dissonance
join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY

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Re: What a sad state of affairs...

said by IPPlanMan:

It's funny how people continue to fault Bush to justify whatever actions Obama takes or doesn't take.

George W. Bush, the president of perpetual fault. It's frankly amusing to watch the hero worship of Obama. The man who talks about "Washington" as if he's not actually the current President: A level of narcissism that we've never seen before.

Obama can blame himself for what he inherited from himself.

I didn't fault Bush to justify Obama, I faulted Bush AND Obama. Like I said both parties are corrupt and they both share fault.

IPPlanMan
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said by KrK:

It's funny how people also strictly focus on Obama and leave their party out of it. It feeds into their ideology that although both are bad, theirs is "better" and therefore they are comfortable with supporting their (R). In this they are dead wrong, they should be pushing to overthrow their (R) party as much as they rail against the (D) party.

Considering Obama's now a two term president, the focus on him is completely appropriate. He's been a monumental failure in this respect, to a degree that will take history to fully appreciate. No excuses. He owns this now... all of it.
IPPlanMan

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Only one party has a President now. That doesn't require any equivocating.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
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Netcong, NJ

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Re: What we need is

said by Mikesco :

A standard e-mail program that splits an optionally encrypted message randomly through multiple servers maintained by different providers into essentially a hundred e-mails and mails them off over a period of say 5 minutes and at the receiving end is able to glue them back together. That may still not be fool proof but at least would make things much more difficult.

The CIA Director and his paramour thought they had it figured out, they NEVER sent one email; they used one account and just read the never sent drafts. I wonder if the NSA, sent the DEA information that was forwarded to the FBI who busted the CIA.

This is like one of those 60s spy movies; I know who is really behind this "TPC".


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