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Comments on news posted 2013-10-16 17:04:23: After being one of the only towns or cities to hold up Google Fiber because of liability concerns, Overland Park this week appeared poised to do a 180 and approve the deal, which city officials tell me remains identical to other deals in the region. ..


CosmicDebri
Still looking for intelligent life

join:2001-09-01
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Just wrong

It's just wrong what Google is doing. Like Karl points out, they are being allowed and given too much of anything and everything they want to bring their super powered awesomeness to certain cities.

Even if Google makes money and doesn't abandon the projects in a couple years, the cities are still going to be paying for the 'right' to have Google in there.

Not to mention that even though they aren't signing any exclusive contracts (that I've heard of), they are still going to be THE go to place if you want internet service if they aren't the only one there. Who in their right mind will try to go into a community where Google Fiber is and try to build a network to compete??
--
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I reject your Reality and substitute my own! -- Adam Savage, Mythbuster
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Just wrong

Any company that stands up for their customers/clients against the business BS that Google decides that all should live with.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA
The incumbents can up their game too. I'm no Google fanboy, but the incumbents need to step up to the plate and offer better value to the customer.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Just wrong

and those providers are doing that- especially MSOs. The large national MSOs are increasing speed hand over fist, and generally are not raising prices- except for those small regional ISPs that are increasing price with speed.

But this is fully about Google and not anyone else.
RokHed

join:2000-09-09
Pennsville, NJ

Re: Just wrong

Comcast Customers like me know first hand about the price hikes. Somehow $65 for 20m down and 5m up dosnt seem like "Stepping up their game" when Google is $70 for 1g.
pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
kudos:2
Reviews:
·ooma
·Google Voice
·Comcast
·Future Nine Corp..
Google is offering a service. Cherry picking, aka, deployment where profit is most likely, is how companies assure return on investment. Google seeks to limit liability, have an option to quit, and to limit coverage. I applaud Google for deploying low cost high speed internet service wherever it wants.

Mandates on local cable and telephone companies likely hinder deployment. If AT&T or Time Warner need to cover ALL areas of a town, where marketing determines great losses for much of the roll out to cover blighted areas, they will not deploy.

The choice is to have slow deployment of Internet, or fast, where cherry picking is allowed. AT&T, Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner would all love to cherry pick.

Letting the private sector handle 80% of the households at profit, is reasonable imo. Today we seem obsessed with fairness in all things. Yet, companies must profit to survive. Our fairness desire often conflicts with companies need to maintain profit.
--
Congress could mess up a one piece jigsaw puzzle.
bugabuga

join:2004-06-10
Austin, TX

Citizens interests too

I don't think we can really split citizen's interests from city's. After all, obligations will be paid out of taxes and local budget, but citizens are clamoring for normal internet instead of what they get from current franchises.

It's perfectly normal for city to be concerned. It's also perfectly normal for Google to simply bypass them and go with the next eager participant. Once the list of eager places is empty, they might come back and revisit "reluctant" participants.

It's like adopting a cat. If you want a cat but local shelter waves a twenty page form to fill out and wants to do a background check on you, you probably will be very likely to get a cat from some other place, where requirements are not so strict

Oh and I still hate current form of franchise agreements. I understand the theory of equality, but practice means "if our low population / low income areas can't get service _nobody_ should have it", which is a bit... frustrating. It cuts out any chance of having alternative to those well established ISPs that dream about per-byte billing and do everything they can to prevent competition.
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xenophon

join:2007-09-17

Re: Citizens interests too

Yeah, I suspect OP will get Google fiber in the end as all surrounding burbs are in line to get it. Google has about 20 KC suburbs with agreements, which may take years to deploy in. It's not like OP/Google need an agreement in place now. OP can wait a year or maybe two to see how committed Google is to keeping/maintaining the network and then make a move.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Citizens interests too

Any city would be smart right now to wait to see what path Google takes. In the end all of these cities that have signed on will take years for the network to be fully built. And only Google knows the uptake on any of the cities/numbers and we should all know by now if they aren't up to google standards they will in fact get rid of these beta at some point. Just like They did with their phone hobby, and their claim of building their own mobile network.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
Reviews:
·Charter

Re: Citizens interests too

said by TBBroadband:

Any city would be smart right now to wait to see what path Google takes. In the end all of these cities that have signed on will take years for the network to be fully built.

And in the meantime, what happens? Incumbents either compete on service and price (the cities win) or nothing changes and everyone has the same, terrible service at high prices as always.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI
Reviews:
·Solarus
"It's like adopting a cat. If you want a cat but local shelter waves a twenty page form to fill out and wants to do a background check on you, you probably will be very likely to get a cat from some other place, where requirements are not so strict "

Like a local farm. They always have spare cats.

thender
Screen tycoon
Premium
join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1
quote:
It's like adopting a cat. If you want a cat but local shelter waves a twenty page form to fill out and wants to do a background check on you, you probably will be very likely to get a cat from some other place, where requirements are not so strict
Perfect analogy. I was told it would cost $120/cat, 2 cat minimum, home inspection and background check, and I had to pay for shots.

I went on craigslist and found a cat in a day that already had its shots. free.

People have options. Google has thousands of cities filled with people who would cut their firstborn children to get 1 gbps for $70. Why shouldn't they be setting the terms?
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gorilla

@proxlabs.com

1 recommendation

Google is the proverbial 800lb gorilla

Google is just acting the part of what they really are - the 800lb gorilla, in negotiations with cities. Corporations do this all the time when they cut development deals that get them tax avoidance for multiple years if they put a headquarters bldg in a city. The only newsworthy aspect is that some people still think Google deserves their reputation a "Google the Good".

elgoog

@comcast.net

Re: Google is the proverbial 800lb gorilla...

...with a very short attention span.

anonome

@verizon.net

"We reserve the right..."

"to refuse service..." (to those we deem unworthy).
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: "We reserve the right..."

Which is all and anyone who does not agree with them.
WhatNow
Premium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Overland Park

Overland Park made a smart move. If I was on the City Council I would have voted for the delay. What Google want was to absolved of ANYTHING that went wrong. Even if they where the party totally at fault.

If cities and towns want fiber so bad they should build their own network. I have posted this idea before but cities and towns and counties with any density at all should build a dumb pipe fiber network and then let any company connect to it to provide the service to a business or resident. The network would be like the power company provides the power line to the house and you take care of eveything past the meter.

The reason fiber has been so slow to be deployed is the cost. The telephone, power, and cable were build because they had a monopoly. If the fiber network had a monopoly even as a dumb pipe or dark fiber it would get built sooner.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Overland Park

Right, because city and towns wouldnt be up against another 800lb gorilla trying to stop them now would they?
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Overland Park

Better than being liable for any and all legal issues that could come from Google and issues.

marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:2
"If cities and towns want fiber so bad they should build their own network. I have posted this idea before but cities and towns and counties with any density at all should build a dumb pipe fiber network and then let any company connect to it to provide the service to a business or resident. "

Which is totally illegal in Missouri at a fine of $5k per day per household passed by the network. (And the city or county is liable for any economic losses by private companies.)

Meanwhile, all video and internet entities are authorized to cherry pick as much as they want, and have been for seven years.
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TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Overland Park

Define Cherry pick- I'm sure everyone in the Charter footprint that has live wire running by it- can get service regardless if the beg for service or not. The same with Mediacom.
Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI

1 edit

Re: Overland Park

Define service /joke. At least they're better than Comcast.

marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:2
Law specifies that a provider can be held to no standard to provide service to a specific neighborhood or percentage of households in an area.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Overland Park

I know, this but Marigold said that others cherry pick as well; which is not true.

But actually in some states- Ohio including, if you wish to become a cableTV provider; you must meet a certain amount of built out. failure to do so and note that on your application, you will be denied and could be ordered to shut down.

marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:2

Re: Overland Park

said by TBBroadband:

But actually in some states- Ohio including, if you wish to become a cableTV provider; you must meet a certain amount of built out. failure to do so and note that on your application, you will be denied and could be ordered to shut down.

Yeah, Missouri not only waives those requirements for state level franchises, but invalidated all existing requirements for franchise agreements below state level.
After this happened, AT&T, in particular, pulled out of a huge number of neighborhoods for TV (mine was one of them) and pulled or severely downgraded internet from existing deployments. Charter did as well, but not to the extent that AT&T did. Charter, instead, is allowing some neighborhoods to degrade without upgrades or repairs (since those standards were wiped out too).
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TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Overland Park

Internet and TV shouldn't have standards- they're not a utility. Our state franchise only takes over for new providers or when a contract with the locals expire. But at this point almost everything is moved to the state expect companies- such as BEX- has a 90year contract with many cities.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

1 recommendation

Re: Overland Park

Internet is as vital to electricity to people these days, stop playing dumb. The whole point of a franchise agreement is to make a company service everyone and not just cherry pick.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
said by WhatNow:

What Google want was to absolved of ANYTHING that went wrong. Even if they where the party totally at fault.

False. The language they objected to would have held the city responsible in instances where the city damaged google lines. It did not make the city responsible for all damage.

It just said the city cannot make google pay for damage the city causes.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Towns that feel they are being treated unfairly...

...are free to tell Google no just as Google is free as a private enterprise to pick and choose who and where they begin negotiations over where they deploy their hobby/beta service.
--
Nocchi rules.

gorilla

@95.154.230.x

Re: Towns that feel they are being treated unfairly...

said by skeechan:

...are free to tell Google no just as Google is free as a private enterprise to pick and choose who and where they begin negotiations over where they deploy their hobby/beta service.

Of course Google has the right to decide where they go. Just as others have the right to point out that Google should not be extolled as some wonderful benefactor, but as a company looking out for their own interests(making billions of dollars and getting free publicity for their advertising business).

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2

Re: Towns that feel they are being treated unfairly...

Duh.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
and that includes having their legal issues paid for by the people.
davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:2

Google Fiber and Quick Quality decision making.

KCKS and KCMO were the tests for the legal work aspects of Google Fiber. Other cities used those two examples to craft their own legal documents in a relatively quicker manner than they normally would. Overland Park failed to take the need for speedy quality legal work seriously. They now go to the back of the line of those in the metropolitan area waiting for Google Fiber(GF).

GF has had to learn about dealing with complex demographic variations. The problems in KCMO and KCKS showed that different approaches were needed to get different groups to be enthusiastic about signing up for GF. GF learned that the information they had originally used to design each Fiberhood's goal was not reliable, so they adjusted the goals to more realistic ones for some Fiberhoods. They even came up with a second chance rally for those Fiberhoods that missed getting to goal the first time. Unlike some ISPs who come in with detailed lists of areas of the city they deem not worthy of service, GF tried a unique approach to allow all areas of KCMO and KCKS to get GF service. They have learned valuable lessons about designing rallies that involve communities more comprehensively in the early stages, prior to the actual registration period for residents. This should reduce the need for second chance rallies.

Cities have learned about moving more quickly than usual, while still maintaining legal quality. If there are any more cities that are approached by GF, they will have an extensive number of examples of how to move the legal process along in a swifter manner than usual. Another thing to note is that municipalities might be quite free to pay for the hook up costs($300) by having a group of philanthropic entities join together to give GF enough money to cover the entire number of residences within that municipality. Goodbye to accusations of discriminatory deployment.

••••

MSauk
MSauk
Premium
join:2002-01-17
Sandy, UT
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

Google is no different than ATT, Verizon, Time Warner, etc.

They are no different period. All of those companies get massive tax breaks, land, money, etc. from the local and state governments. Only difference is Google is supplying the people with massive speeds, while the rest of those losers supply the people with the least amount possible.
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TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Google is no different than ATT, Verizon, Time Warner, etc.

TWC, ATT, VZ, Comcast, etc do not have the cities handling their legal fund either like Google requires. If that was the case cities would not have CableTV let alone states would not have approved state wide deals.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

It's a referendum on the sorry state of Competition in the US

It's really amazing that due to the sorry state of the competitive landscape in the USA that we feel so far behind on true next Generation Internet services.... so much so that people are overwhelming enthusiastic for Google Fiber at the expense of any sane standard requirements for such services.

However it works out long term, Google Fiber's impact cannot be understated. All across the USA other incumbents have suddenly found the will to upgrade or increase speeds in order to slow the momentum of Google's PR express. Even here we're about to get a LONG overdue speed increase from Cox without a rate increase. The prices are already high, but I hold no doubts that the underlying motivation is to help counter the impact that Google Fiber is having in the public eye. If Google Fiber didn't exist, these speed increases wouldn't either. It's still not competitive at all, but at least it's a little bit less of a rip off.
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Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI

Re: It's a referendum on the sorry state of Competition in the US

Now that they give you an upgrade and toting 100mb+/s, you still get lag to your favorite game during peak hours because they can't handle you streaming 128kb/s. Right? /sarc-sterotype
34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

Re: It's a referendum on the sorry state of Competition in the US

They will roll out 100 Mbps speeds but the nodes won't be split to be able to handle the user base actually using their connections.

Kinda sad to see US MSOs being so far behind Canadian MSOs for their top speed tiers.
josephf

join:2009-04-26
Reviews:
·VoicePulse

Same Thing Occurred with Verizon FiOS

Some towns stretched out negotiations and demands to Verizon before they would agree to a franchise agreement for FiOS.

By time they came around Verizon decided not to build out.

Then they started wining why Verizon is not building FiOS in their town.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

Re: Same Thing Occurred with Verizon FiOS

That is a different situation. AT&T is getting out of the land line business and wants to get everyone on metered wireless data plans.

Verizon is basically putting costly expansion on hold to see if AT&T's plans work and then verizon will do the same thing.
xmarklive

join:2012-07-10
Lansing, MI

tmobile should

tmobile should move into cable and be the uncarrier cable with no contracts.

derek6795

@bgainc.com

Why?

Why should Google, ATT, VZW, etc be forced by politicians to build out entire swaths of the city that are barrios or ghettos? The people in those neighborhoods wont spend the money for fiber service. You're forcing these ISP's to spend hundreds of millions or billions of dollars building out areas that will produce ZERO return on investment. You know who then has to pay for that? That's right...US. Us middle class working people will have our bills increased because we are forced to pay for those buildouts because the people in that live in those poor buildout areas wont pay for service. It's a hidden tax.
Expand your moderator at work
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
·Embarq Now Centu..
·Comcast
·CenturyLink

Here is how telephone service was established in the good old days.

The broadband industry is about where the Telephone Industry was in the early days of telephone service deployment. Unfortunately the incumbent broadband service providers are interfering with municipal deployment of broadband service. Overland Park's government did the right thing to be certain that the "T's" were crossed and that the "I's" were dotted. If Google wanted to be reasonable it would put Overland Park back on the deployment list as soon as there is a mutual agreement between both parties.

Here is a link to the website showing how telephone service was established in the good old days:

»www.warwickhistoricalsociety.org···company/

“Warwick in History” – The following is a resolution taken from the Warwick Town Board minutes of June, 1928:

Be it resolved that the Warwick Valley Telephone Company of the Town of Warwick, State of New York, its successors or assigns, be and hereby is authorized to build and maintain a telephone system with the necessary exchange or exchanges in the Town of Warwick, New York, and for that purpose to set poles, string cables and wires, construct subways and do everything necessary for the building and maintenance of such telephone system in conformity to law, for a period of 99 years.

The resolution was carried unanimously.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

OP's board negotiated in bad faith

"there has been no evidence that Overland Park's trepidation was anything other than the city looking out for its own best interests."

Untrue. They were purposely playing hardball and after over 10 months of negotiation, google got tired of it. The decision to put it on hiatus would have came after the meeting 2 weeks ago where the board shut it down, before google knew they would approve of it in the most recent meeting.

We also have no idea what is actually on paper even though the board claims they want to now accept the deal. Blaming google for backing off for now when they wouldn't even start installation in OP for over 2-3 years is dumb. They have more than enough time to make sure the OP board signs an agreement that google can live with.

At this point google probably needs to add extra language to any deal to prevent the town board from screwing google down the road after installations have begun. OP's board cannot be trusted.
sqinky
Premium
join:2001-01-24
Fernley, NV

Punished?

If by "punished" you mean that Google will decide NOT to deal with them, then yes, of course. Any company can decide they dislike the regulatory or economic environment of any area and decide NOT to play in that sand box. It's called free enterprise. It's bad for the people there because NOW the incumbents won't have to step up and compete.

thender
Screen tycoon
Premium
join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1

Google is doing what any sane business or person would do.

It's supply and demand. Google is not going to lick anyone's balls or kiss anyone's ass to give away something that no one else is offering.

What Google is doing now will cost them billions of dollars and they won't start seeing profits on that for a long, long time. There is a reason they are the ONLY company trying to do this!

The city shouldn't roll over for anything Google has to offer. However, as long as Google's the only game in town, Google will move onto the cities that do roll over for anything they have to offer.

You want this to stop? Offer to build a fiber network and offer 1 gbps connections for $70/mo. Once enough of you are building fiber networks for close to nothing, the city won't have to choose between broadband or its morals.
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fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

Google = Walmart

Walmart came in and knocked a lot of competition out. Walmart used to have really cheap prices. Now that there's less competition, their prices are sky high. Same thing will happen with Google Fiber. It will start out cheap but sky rocket.
TuxRaiderPen

join:2009-09-19

Re: Google = Walmart

said by fartness:
Walmart came in and knocked a lot of competition out. Walmart used to have really cheap prices. Now that there's less competition, their prices are sky high. Same thing will happen with Google Fiber. It will start out cheap but sky rocket.
Really? Have you checked and backed this up?

I can... Walmart has deals with certain very NAME BRAND CLOTHIERS to offer their products in the stores....An example recently I found is that a line of thermal underwear which sells for $18-30/piece elsewhere and at the site of the manufcaturer is $9.96/piece.. That is 50% or more LESS THAN the price at the competition ie: Target, Sears, Nordstrom, Macys, JCPenney, Kohls, Belk who all carry the same product.

I have the same items to compare and contrast the quality and material.. There is no difference. None. All foreign made, all same material content, and I have compared the fit and durability between the two.. No differences.

So if you know where to get these then you can save, big. Now the WM selection is LIMITED in the colors and textures.. versus the other stores and the direct site. Plus if you didn't some variants when they hit the shelf/peg they are gone for good and you will be off to the others to pay regular price. I've already seen it.. one particular variant is gone or a few pieces left over.. This was a one time stock, no replenishment...

Yes I know WM is predatory on the contracts. No, I don't like it. And no voting with my wallet is not going to change things a bit. WM doesn't care, neither does Target, et al. There are plenty of others to take my place and pay up. Yes I too would love to see more products made in the US, really made in the US and from US materials. The most recent PR scam is just that, scam. WM gets a bad rap for it, when JCP, Target, Sears and others are JUST AS GUILTY.

"An informed conusmer is our best customer!" (If your old enough and lived in the right area you know that line!)
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