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Comments on news posted 2013-11-26 08:19:14: Some years ago Verizon froze FiOS expansion to focus on making more money off of FiOS users (rate hikes), improving uptake rates in existing FiOS areas, and converting stubborn DSL users in those areas to FiOS. ..

page: 1 · 2 · next

jtel

join:2005-06-28
Bristol, RI

Enough Savings to Expand FIOS?

Maybe they are hinting around so when they IPO Wireless & Enterprise investors won't flee should they start running fiber again.



Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY

Nah, they rather sell off those markets
--
Semper Fi



Zenit

join:2012-05-07
N. VA, USA
Reviews:
·Comcast
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon Online DSL

2 recommendations

How can they sell off some of these markets, when they are connected legally to areas with FIOS? In our ex-C&P Telephone market there is a lot of FIOS, and a lot of Copper. There are a LOT of wealthy people in this region.

I cant see VZ abandoning such regions. They will -eventually- have to replace the copper. Someday. Perhaps in 2078.

If they took that savings, and put it back into the network, we would see a little more FIOS, and VZ would save even more. Makes sense, no? Nah, lets sell more 4G LTE and rip people off.



Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com

Just a drop in the bucket

The $100 million does sound like a lot of money, but the simple fact of the matter is that the cost to bring FIOS to a home is much more expensive than that of traditional copper. The cost to terminate the fiber is still quite expensive. So much so that FIOS has to have the customer subscribing to their services for a good 3 years (with all phone, internet, and TV services) before a profit is even seen. Want to know the reason why FIOS isn't everywhere yet and why they are only in above average income areas? This is why.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

wow

In a lot of Verizon dsl markets they will be handing cable a monopoly. If they get their way they will drop dsl in the markets that do not have fios and users only option will be cable internet.

I would hope the fcc will make Verizon upgrade to fiber but the FCC is not smart enough to do that.



amarryat
Verizon FiOS

join:2005-05-02
Marshfield, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Nightfall

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

said by Nightfall:

The cost to terminate the fiber is still quite expensive.

I know that was true 5 years ago, but is it still true? I thought the ONT's are much less expensive now. And the cable company installs a box as well, so what's the difference now?


IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

2 recommendations

Maybe they'll see the light

Maybe they'll see the light and convert the rest of their existing markets to FiOS since they seem to be unable to sell those markets (as the deals with frontier and FairPoint went over like a lead balloon) and they'll force the rest of their customers on to FiOS. Then they will have a strong case to shut down copper.

Maybe if they are willing to offer equal or better service, then they'll be able to make a stronger case to regulators for a copper sunset.

I support a copper sunset but ONLY if they are willing to offer equal or better wireline service. And I've heard that VZW and Xfinity are parting ways in their co-marketing agreement. Maybe that's a hint at future FiOS expansion.
--
I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner and I currently have DirecTV. They are much better than broadcast TV.

I have not and will not cut the cord.



ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to jtel

Re: Enough Savings to Expand FIOS?

Lets be serious here, if Verizon announced a 100% migration to FTTP, I wouldnt sell my VZ stock, Id buy more. Future proofing themselves, save an incredible amount of money on copper maintenance, and position themselves to gain more broadband/video customers? Im in.



n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY

No Savings For Me

I had not priced FiOS out and I am surprised to see it is $70 (non-promo price as I do not care about temporary promotions) for 15mbps service. Cablevision is serving me with 18/5 service for $54.95 plus I get access to their WiFi network. I am not sure how FiOS is competitive in my area with those kinds of prices.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.



dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4

Cherry pick. . .

and pay the fines
-
if you don't have it, you ain't gettin' it.[unless you move]
--
Despises any post with strings.



dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4
reply to n2jtx

Re: No Savings For Me

theres something you get with CV that verizon FIOS doesn't give you at any price: peak hour slowdowns!
--
Despises any post with strings.



n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY

said by dvd536:

theres something you get with CV that verizon FIOS doesn't give you at any price: peak hour slowdowns!

I have Sprint for my cellular service so I am used slowdowns (all the time).
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to amarryat

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

said by amarryat:

said by Nightfall:

The cost to terminate the fiber is still quite expensive.

I know that was true 5 years ago, but is it still true? I thought the ONT's are much less expensive now. And the cable company installs a box as well, so what's the difference now?

Its not really that much cheaper today. The end to end cost to terminate the fiber still is in the thousands for both ends. Which is why its important for FIOS to retain customers for 2-3 years before a profit is even seen.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


FreeBSDuser

join:2013-05-15
Somers, NY

1 recommendation

reply to IowaCowboy

Re: Maybe they'll see the light

You have a good point here. The regulators should say that AT&T and Verizon can dump copper if they deploy fiber in the places where they're dumping copper, instead of increasing prices so people switch to cable internet.

But if AT&T and Verizon still don't want to expand their fiber networks, they should sell it to municipalities, and then lease the fiber from the municipalities for U-Verse and FiOS.



Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
reply to ITALIAN926

Re: Enough Savings to Expand FIOS?

Same here. I'd actually buy some stock at that point.



OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Gee

Imagine that, upgrading your network saves you money in the long run.


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to ITALIAN926

Re: Enough Savings to Expand FIOS?

Yes, but that is the smart patient thing to do. Which is completely contrary to the day trader mentality that you need to get in make your quick money and then get out. Today's investors, like the many you see trolling here, dont care about long term viability of a company.


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

reply to Nightfall

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

Please show me a comparison to the cost of when they originally ran copper to a place back several decades ago in today's dollars compared to what it cost to lay fiber today.

Regardless how that turns out, fiber is much more robust in that it is not nearly affected by the elements as copper and it has a lot more capabilities than copper.


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

reply to FreeBSDuser

Re: Maybe they'll see the light

I would agree to a point but I would give them a date to complete it by before imposing some penalties.

Remember, it was the teleco's themselves that stated way back in 96 that they would deploy fiber and 45/45mbps would be the standard. Almost 20 years later and after we gave them hundreds of billions of dollars they really haven't done crap in the over all picture.


rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
reply to Zenit

Re: Enough Savings to Expand FIOS?

Not if they figure out a way to make those customers some kind of pure-wireless play.


UnnDunn
Premium
join:2005-12-21
Brooklyn, NY

1 recommendation

reply to Nightfall

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

said by Nightfall:

Its not really that much cheaper today. The end to end cost to terminate the fiber still is in the thousands for both ends. Which is why its important for FIOS to retain customers for 2-3 years before a profit is even seen.

Once the fiber is installed at the premises, it's there for life. It isn't just the customer who orders the installation, but also any subsequent tenants/owners of the premises who can order service.

2-3 years of service is a trivial bar to meet. Heck, I've had FiOS at my apartment for almost 3 years, and I'm moving to a new apartment that also has FiOS, where I intend to stay for at least 2-3 more years.

UnnDunn
Premium
join:2005-12-21
Brooklyn, NY
reply to n2jtx

Re: No Savings For Me

said by n2jtx:

I had not priced FiOS out and I am surprised to see it is $70 (non-promo price as I do not care about temporary promotions) for 15mbps service. Cablevision is serving me with 18/5 service for $54.95 plus I get access to their WiFi network. I am not sure how FiOS is competitive in my area with those kinds of prices.

In NY, the promo price is in effect a perpetual price. Once your promo price runs out, it is trivial to renew it by switching to a slightly different plan, which will cause a slightly different promo rate to kick in. I've done this twice now.

In addition, with FiOS you get access to the Boingo Wi-Fi network, which gets you in at hotels and airports all over the world, as well as several spots in NY Metro.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

2 recommendations

reply to Nightfall

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

I read Google fibre is about $600 per POP. So I would put Verizon somewhere in the $800 per POP range circa 2014. Maybe someone from Verizon can chime in, but that is what I am seeing at broadcast locations today... Fibre is actually cheaper than copper now, physically and will continue to be.

Verizon runs a hybrid IP/SONET network (PON) which isn't ideal (GF is IP (WDM-PON)), however when they started deploying MetroE was way too expensive. BPONS are pretty much tapped, and GPONs will be in 4-5 years, so upgrading the NID in a cost effective manner will be the big money decision, but ye olde fibre will outlive me in the ground. That is why Verizon charges $$$ for anything over 75, it has to recover it's costs and it wants to keep utilization down.

Trenching (putting the cable in the ground) is 75% of the cost, so if you can get 100 years out of fibre you will be saving MASSIVE amounts of money.

I'm sorry but chasing the DSL/copper bug is dead. If it's not coax of fibre, its a dinosaur in the Smithsonian.


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to Skippy25

Re: Enough Savings to Expand FIOS?

You do realize that day traders represent a small percentage of the daily trading volume and an even smaller percentage of overall market capitalization, right? The majority of investments in the US Market are held by retirement and pension funds, that are in it for the long haul, and not inclined to engage in day trading or take short term positions.

There are a lot of things wrong with our economic culture, ranging from your neighbor who bought too much house, to the CEO with the golden parachute, to our borrow, print, and spend Federal Government. I'm just not convinced that Verizon's actions are that outlandish here. They don't have a limitless amount of money to spend on CapEx, so where should they allocate the resources that are available? To the growth market that is wireless or the mature market that is landline?

There are still tens of millions of Americans without smart phones. There are still huge coverage gaps in their wireless footprint. They still need to expand data capacity in many wireless markets.

Contrast that with wireline, where they have how many (five or six digits worth?) ONTs are sitting idle (translation: customers we can get with a small marketing budget and zero CapEx)? Contrast the relatively unregulated wireless market to the mandates they face in wireline. Consider the fact that they face entrenched competitors, the fact that wireline voice service is dying, and even cable television service is threatened as cord cutting goes mainstream.

Where would you like to see Verizon invest CapEx right now, thinking of your investments in them, which you doubtless have if you have a 401(k)?

They'll come back to wireline in the markets they still hold, once the wireless market matures. They aren't liable to find a buyer for what's left of the copper network, Frontier is tapped out, and I doubt anybody is going to raise capital to try and purchase that ancient network.



ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

They spent 130 billion in money they dont have to buy-out Vodafone, they can likewise spend another paltry 30 billion to migrate the rest of their wireline footprint to FiOS. Whether you like it or not, they still have responsibilities here as an ILEC.


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to Crookshanks

I wasnt speaking of actual day traders so I guess I used the wrong term as I failed to think of that inadequate group as you pointed out. I was speaking of the extremely short sighted traders that may or may not hold on to a stock for even a day, a week or a month.

I think I was pretty clear in many post here that I would like to see their CapEx invested in the long term viability of the wireline infrastructure.

Wireless, still relies on wireline and is probably decades away, if ever, from being a replacement to it for many applications. Saying that wireless has not matured I think is a little over stated.

Wireless will probably never mature if you are speaking of a final wireless protocol as they will always make improvements to it being it is so inadequate compared to wired. They will continue to invest billions upon billions over the next several decades just to keep up with it. Wired on the other hand can be vastly improved one time around and will last decades with only maintenance and minor improvements.

If you are speaking of coverage, I would be willing to be more people can get wireless than can get wired. But that is just me speculating.


Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI
Reviews:
·Solarus
reply to amarryat

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

I stayed home when I got fiber, so I could watch the installation.

Ignoring the trenching, it took one person about 10 minutes to connect the fiber that went to my cable box to the fiber that ran to my house. Then it took another person that came later, about 10-15 minutes get the outside fiber into the house.

The majority of the time was spent drilling a hole, patching it up, figuring out where to place my ONT in the basement, and mounting a panel for my ONT.

The actual handing of the fiber the a small portion of the time spent.

The bulk of an all fiber network has nothing to do with fiber and everything to do with man-hours working trenches and stopping at the customer's dwelling unit and figuring out how to route the cables.

All of the work to lay the fiber between my curb-side cable box to installing the ONT in my basement was about 1.5 hours. The bulk of that was a mix of trenching and trying to figure out where to put the ONT.

By definition, termination of fiber is just getting the fiber ready to be connected. About the same speed as I've seen veteran network people crimp a RJ45. They had a quick little hand tool. Spin it around the jacket to strip the jacket, expose the fiber, snip it, quick change of tools, something fast, done. plug it in.

It all happened so fast.


Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI
reply to Skippy25

Average cost for cable per house passed is around $1600 and fiber is about $1800. But you need to upgrade the cable network every few years and lots of maintenance.


Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI

1 edit
reply to OSUGoose

Re: Gee

What are you talking about? Think of all the money Google could save if they used those unwanted vacuum tubes? Operational costs be damned, all that matters is not wasting money on capital investment.


Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI
Reviews:
·Solarus
reply to Nightfall

Re: Just a drop in the bucket

said by Nightfall:

Its not really that much cheaper today. The end to end cost to terminate the fiber still is in the thousands for both ends. Which is why its important for FIOS to retain customers for 2-3 years before a profit is even seen.

The entire average cost for everything, including all networking gear, all fiber, all trenching, all truck-rolls to each customer's house to install, is about $1800/house, higher if your in the sticks, but only about double.

That doesn't include datacenter or trunk costs. Data center costs are cheaper through, because fiber gear uses about 10x less power and can handle about 10x-100x more connections per rack.