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Comments on news posted 2013-12-31 09:17:50: Jacob Appelbaum made waves yesterday with a piece over at Der Spiegel highlighting the catalog of 50 different options (some rather amazing) that the NSA has at their disposal when snooping on individuals or organizations. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

Eight miles away?

Maybe under the most perfect of conditions but generally I call bullshit.


tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
If it only needs to insert something, it's possible, doesn't sound very selective, more like an EMP.


RWSI

join:2012-11-27
Albuquerque, NM

Reverse it

8 miles away? It's possible but not with the omni antenna in the picture. On the other hand reverse can happen to the attacker.
Maybe the NSA just wants to watch the porn you are watching. Most of what humans do is so boring the person using the device would go insane.

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
·ooma
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said by RWSI:

8 miles away? It's possible but not with the omni antenna in the picture.

Indeed. That's why it says external amps/antennas. With the right gear? My money is on the NSA for making it happen from 8 miles away.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
Something like this is not going to go unnoticed. If they are using a lot of power they're going to cause interference some where and someones going to start snooping around with a spectrum analyzer.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

Chubbysumo

join:2009-12-01
Superior, WI
Reviews:
·Charter
These are all dated 2007, which means they are quite outdated now in terms of OSs and systems and such, but it makes one wonder what they have in terms of stuff for targeting newer hardware with UEFI BIOSs and such, and WPA2 networks. I mean, really, if you think about a lot of this stuff logically, for someone who knows computers, a modded BIOS would be easily identifiable, and might even cause issues with the host machine to begin with now, and little tiny add on cards would only work for a laptop that they would hope someone never took apart. They probably have developed more stealthy stuff already, and while this stuff is old, it would probably work great in china. The iOS exploit crap is nothing new, and its likely handed to them updated as well thru apple.


Camaro
Question everything
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join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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So what.

Backtrack/Kali Linux can do all that for a hell of a lot cheaper then that box, albeit not 8 mile range, but like people have suggested a few amps tuned right on the 2.4GHZ, 5GHZ frequency range would probably work.

Remember people now matter how smart you think you are their will be always be someone smarter, never underestimate anything.


Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT

Easy fix..

..just use WPA2 along with OpenVPN. If they break through WPA2, it'll take them a bit longer to crack the OpenVPN key.

But, if there is an exploit hole in the driver or stack itself, there could be an issue even with utilizing advanced encryption.


morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
Reviews:
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2 recommendations

reply to battleop

Re: Eight miles away?

Home made cantennas can fairly easily reach 2 miles. With a budget of more than $50 billion, I'm sure any spy agency can make this work.


tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
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1 edit
said by morbo:

With a budget of more than $50 billion,

That's a lot of pringles, might even buy some more sophisticated designs.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to morbo
Put a nice big pine tree in front of that cantenna and it's not going 8 feet. Even the NSA has to obey the laws of physics.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
reply to RWSI

Re: Reverse it

I'm waiting for a similar revelation that NSA employees "monitor" World of Warcraft "just in case terrorists are there." Something like "The NSA admitted that an elite team of analysts are pouring over the Internet's porn sites. Said one source: 'If the terrorists hide their messages in porn, we'll find it.' In related news, employment applications to the NSA have skyrocketed."
--
-Jason Levine


morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
reply to battleop

Re: Eight miles away?

True, but unless the pine tree completely (sides and above) surrounds the wifi source, there's a way to get to it.

ipwn3r456

join:2013-07-31
Los Angeles, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

Solution, don't use wifi...

If the NSA does hacked into advanced encryptions like WPA2, might as well turn off your router and have a direct connection from your modem to your computer instead. Well this option might anger your rest of your family, but this is the best solution.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to battleop

Re: Eight miles away?

said by battleop:

Maybe under the most perfect of conditions but generally I call bullshit.

You've never played around with high gain antennas, have you?

We used to use these when I worked for the WISP. With one of those on ONE end of the connection it was trivial to get a solid association at 4 or 5 miles distance.

One time I was in the field doing a site survey, when my laptop automatically connected to my HOME wi-fi network, which was nearly six miles away as the crow flies. I was using an antenna similar to the aforementioned one on my laptop, while the AP at home had the standard rabbit ear antennas on it. There are a clear LOS, except for a row of trees in our backyard, so that was doubtless a factor. Still, I hadn't MEANT to do it, it just connected automatically, which surprised the hell out of me. Connection was solid enough to use and surf the web too....

Put one of those antennas on both ends of the connection and you can go 20+ miles with a clear LOS. Obviously not relevant for the NSA when trying to hack, but it's a great example of how much you can do with very little transmit power if you've got the right antenna.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

1 edit
reply to battleop

Re: Reverse it

said by battleop:

If they are using a lot of power they're going to cause interference some where and someones going to start snooping around with a spectrum analyzer.

Not likely. Two things:

1) They'd be using directional antennas, so you'd have to be between them and the target to pick up interference.

2) Said 'interference' wouldn't completely shut you down, it would just cause packet loss whenever they were transmitting. It's highly unlikely that they need to transmit at anything approaching a full duty cycle, in reality it's probably a duty cycle measured in the single digit percentage range, so the only "evidence" you would have is a very small decrease in throughput. That happens all the time on wi-fi networks, for reasons far more mundane than "NSA hacking".

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to ipwn3r456

Re: Solution, don't use wifi...

I hate to break it to you, but you're not important enough to be on NSA's radar, and if you were for some reason you'd have bigger problems than your wi-fi network....

Want me to enhance your paranoia? Wired connections are no guarantee against eavesdropping. Google "TEMPEST" and start reading.

OMGZ, they're coming to get us!


TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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join:2000-11-08
Da Bronx
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reply to Camaro

Re: So what.

said by Camaro:

.... a few amps tuned right on the 2.4GHZ, 5GHZ frequency range would probably work.mate anything.

We've gotten quite good at fishing out a 1 watt signal transmitted from Mars, weak and buried deep in noise. So a WiFi signal ONLY 8 miles away should be no problem given the right technology and lots of Yankee dollars. NASA has had this technology for decades; your tax dollars at mulit-use work.

--
"Remember, remember the fifth of November.
Gunpowder, Treason and Plot.
I see no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot."

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people"


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to Camaro
said by Camaro:

but like people have suggested a few amps tuned right on the 2.4GHZ, 5GHZ frequency range would probably work.

Higher gain/directional antennas are always better than amps. An amp won't overcome a bad antenna and can only rarely enable a longer reach with the same model antenna. Amps are primarily useful for overcoming cabling losses, not extending range. They actually tend to decrease it a bit, because of the noise they create.


w0g
o.O

join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR

NSA can hijack WiFi from 22369 miles..

NSA has a ton of ELINT satellites that can intercept WiFi from space.

And they are up in orbit, 22369 miles high...

More info on this here: »www.oregonstatehospital.net/d/ru ··· ebl.html


w0g
o.O

join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR
reply to Crookshanks

Re: Solution, don't use wifi...

True, they could tap a telephone line or Ethernet cable from space or other remote location with nearly limitless range.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Crookshanks

Re: Reverse it

There are a lot of WISPs out there that this could cause trouble with and there are some that are very well equipped and have the talent on staff to find such things.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Crookshanks

Re: Eight miles away?

I spent 10 years working for a WISP. I've messed with plenty of high gain antennas none of which will fit in the pictured case. Even with the highest gain antennas 2.4 / 5.8 won't do shit when you try and pass through objects.

'Put one of those antennas on both ends of the connection and you can go 20+ miles with a clear LOS"

With clear LOS I've done links out to 35 miles which is really nothing special in the WISP industry. I think the record line of site is beyond 100 miles.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


azzo

@dodo.com.au
reply to morbo
It got me thinking that a cantenna using a 55 gallon (steel) drum should reach 5 miles easily

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

1 edit
reply to battleop
said by battleop:

I spent 10 years working for a WISP. I've messed with plenty of high gain antennas none of which will fit in the pictured case. Even with the highest gain antennas 2.4 / 5.8 won't do shit when you try and pass through objects.

Guess you looked at the pictures without bothering to read the text. Let me help you, I will add emphasis to the key parts so you don't have to read all 29 words:

"Use of external amplifiers and antennas in both experimental and operational scenarios have resulted in successful NIGHTSTAND attacks from as far away as eight miles under ideal environmental conditions."

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to battleop

Re: Reverse it

You know just enough to be dangerous, don't you?

What's the duty cycle on a packet injection attack? How long does it take to break out a spectrum analyzer, assuming you even notice the reduced throughput and attribute it to anything other than the random EMI that all Wi-Fi networks must contend with? What does a spectrum analyzer get you, other than received signal strength and a rough indication of direction?

You seriously think an attack like this takes long enough to be both detected and triangulated?

Stop spouting off on stuff you know little about, or at least take the time to actually READ the linked materials before you open your mouth.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Crookshanks

Re: Eight miles away?

Do you have any REAL proof it exists? This entire conversation is hypothetical anyways because no one can prove it even exists.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Crookshanks

Re: Reverse it

Read linked materials that have absolutely no proof what so ever that the document is real or that what they are talking about even exists.

What's next? Some Russian site says that Hollywood OS really exits? The NSA bullshit is out of control. Anyone can make any kind of spooky government spy on you claim now and it's true. I read another thread on this site where there are claims the NSA is now intercepting Laptops and Tablets you buy online loading them with spyware and then delivering them to the end user.

What's next? They read your mind with X rays?
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to battleop

Re: Eight miles away?

Guess it's a good thing they have domestic drone program, then.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to battleop
Only the NSA's only words and documents.

Depends on whether you consider them reliable source or not.
If anything, they will understate their capability.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini