dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
view:
topics flat nest 
Comments on news posted 2014-01-28 12:22:24: We've explored just how corrupt and dysfunctional West Virginia has been when it came to spending their $126.3 million in broadband stimulus funds. ..

Millenium
join:2013-10-30

Millenium

Member

Pay your taxes

When I look at my income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes; and then think about this and others like it I get sad.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC

cramer

Premium Member

Re: Pay your taxes

If you really knew what was being done with your money, you'd give up and move off-planet.

Zenit_IIfx
The system is the solution
Premium Member
join:2012-05-07
Purcellville, VA
·Comcast XFINITY

1 recommendation

Zenit_IIfx

Premium Member

Just a bit of history...

The baby bell in West VA (C&P Telephone) was the first bell operating company to convert their entire switching network to digital switching 100% in 1993. All the step-by-step and crossbar exchanges were retired.

1 step forward, 10 steps back I suppose.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: Just a bit of history...

Upgraded relative to what? On the surface your statement looks like WV has lost its mojo.

If prior to being first to all digital, were they behind? Did the state PUC find they mismanaged upgrades resulting in higher rates due to the comparatively high maintenance costs of old equipment? To bail them out, did the state allow them to assess a special "upgrade" fee to fund wholesale upgrades?

This is all conjecture. They might have been ahead of everyone else but without that "relative to what" context, perhaps they've never been well managed and this is just more of the same.

Zenit_IIfx
The system is the solution
Premium Member
join:2012-05-07
Purcellville, VA
·Comcast XFINITY

Zenit_IIfx

Premium Member

Re: Just a bit of history...

Well, before 1983 the Bell System primarily focused on putting in ESS (Electronic Switching System) in urban and new suburban areas. Rural areas were slower to get the new equipment. After the breakup newer CPU controlled equipment was needed to deal with the new regulatory environment (handle more than 1 long distance provider, handle the new LATA-region billing rates).

The context of this achievement would be relative to the other RBOCs in the US + the Independents like GTE. GTE was big, and their last electromechanical switch was retired in 1999 right before the merger with Bell Atlantic.

I couldn't find out what equipment was most common in WV before the push to the ESS, but there was probably a lot of the old Step by Step offices around.

That moment in 1993 was probably the only time WV could say anything good about its telecommunications network.
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow

Premium Member

Re: Just a bit of history...

Other bigger states may have had one switch in a small rural town that kept them from saying ALL switches were electronic. Their may have been large cities that had more new switches then WV had in the state. Friends were telling me about the 5 new digital switches in the downtown office of a medium size city in 1998.

humanfilth
join:2013-02-14
river styx

humanfilth

Member

accountability

Its only embezzlement when poor people do it.

Its only bribery when poor people do it.
Millenium
join:2013-10-30

Millenium

Member

Re: accountability

And it's only fraud when it's not endorsed by law:

»globaleconomicanalysis.b ··· -on.html

I day of work = $158,000 per year pension.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

Say it isn't so!

It could be worse. Here we're "only" talking about hundreds of millions. It could be the billions that Uncle Sam gave away to solar upstarts. We all know how well that worked out.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

Or the billions they gave the phone company to wire everyone in PA with 45/45mbps. How did that go and what was that cost to the tax payers?
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

This is what happens when the Government tries to pick winners and losers in the marketplace. It should come as no surprise to anyone. Easy money always comes with a failure to do one's full diligence, that's the best case, the worst case is the corruption of our political process as favored interests secure the money to the detriment of those who aren't nearly so well connected.

It amuses me how few people here noticed that the FIOS build out stopped at nearly the same time the Federal Government started talking about broadband stimulus. One can imagine being in Verizon's boardroom for that discussion, "Why are spending our money to do this when Uncle Sam is going to do it for us, fall on his ass, then sell whatever he manages to build for pennies on the dollar?"
Expand your moderator at work
rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

1 recommendation

rahvin112 to Crookshanks

Member

to Crookshanks

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

No this is what happens when the government uses private companies to build systems that are natural monopolies. In the situation where a natural monopoly exists government should build out and maintain the infrastructure and allow anyone to use it, just like the interstate highways. Its completely idiotic that we are building out 3 communication systems that do exactly the same thing. It costs every single person in this country hundreds of dollars per year.

The reason Verzion stopped the FIOS build out is that the one CEO with the cohones to see that a long term investment in the future would pay strong dividends down the road at the expense of short term earnings retired. His replacement was far more interested in short term stock price and promptly sold the long term investment down the river so he could get his bonus. He got his bonus and he screwed the shareholders and the public while the traders on wall street made a bundle. FIOS was a brilliant play, unfortunately the Modern CEO isn't interested in long term growth because they owe no allegiance to the stockholder. This will continue until investors finally step forward and take their companies back.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

said by rahvin112:

In the situation where a natural monopoly exists government should build out and maintain the infrastructure and allow anyone to use it, just like the interstate highways.

Internet connectivity is not a natural monopoly, and even if it was that's a thin justification for nationalizing something that became what it was today in part because the Government stayed out of the way.
rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

rahvin112

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

You don't know what a natural monopoly is if you believe that.

Stringing a cable to every single home and business in the US is a natural monopoly, it's why there aren't two phone companies or two cable companies serving the same area. The only reason we have a duopoly is because government restricted telco's from offering TV service. As a result we built the natural monopoly of both services out two separate times then allowed them into each others business. There will never be that third provider needed to bring real competition to the market. As a result we're stuck with a pretend competitive system where it's neither competitive nor regulated. The companies divide the market and fail to compete.

Had we been smart like the rest of the world we would have only built ONE last mile communication system and upgraded it as technology advanced. In Europe where there is frequently only one single communication provider that is a regulated or state owned monopoly the prices are 1/4 the US and services is often 100x better. But because of people like you that don't recognize the weakness of a market when monopolies are involved we pay to build the same infrastructure out 2 times (the first system was built by local coop's and sold to ATT under the promise that it would be a regulated monopoly for life) then pretend it's competitive. In the process we get the worst of all worlds, high prices, poor service and absolutely no regard for customers. Essentially all the bad aspects of the monopoly and all the prices of an unregulated monopoly.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

said by rahvin112:

You don't know what a natural monopoly is if you believe that.

I live in an area with at least three credible options for cap free broadband (DSL, DOCSIS, WISP) and more options for capped (three LTE providers, however many satellite ones) broadband. This is in the bustling metropolis of Binghamton, NY, population 250k. Don't whine to me if your hometown sucks. Try doing something about it that's more productive than online bellyaching.
said by rahvin112:

But because of people like you

People like me? You mean people who recognize the difference between corporations and Uncle Sam? Let me give you a hint: The former can't send you to jail when you don't do what they want.

Please, tell me you're one of the people who endlessly whines about the NSA, because that would complete the irony.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

But how many choices do you personally have? I also have similar options (DSL, U-Verse, DOCSIS and several custom WISP providers and WiMax, 4 LTE providers). However none are without at least soft caps/throttling.

With all this choice, I only have one viable option for HSI and that's DOCSIS. Viable because the rest simply do not compare on speed or price. Not unit price, total price.

U-Verse/DSL is a few blocks away. WISP options are surprisingly expensive and seem to be geared for business or provider-of-last-resort customers. LTE is fast but not as fast as DOCSIS and ridiculously expensive with very small caps and stiff excess usage fees.

If the market was truly competitive, how can I get a full-sized BMW 7-series cheaper than an entry-level Ford/Chevy/Kia? Does that make any sense in a competitive market? Is the DOCSIS provider dumping the product to run the others out of business? Are they shifting costs to other services that have even less competition (video/hard-line phone services)?
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

said by rradina:

But how many choices do you personally have?

Present at my address, no soft caps or throttling:

Verizon DSL, 7 to 15mbit/s tier
TWC: Service levels from 10mbit/s to 50mbit/s

Likely present at my address (need site-survey to confirm, but neighbors have it): Local WISP (Plexicomm), 10mbit/s or 30mbit/s, cap free.

Sprint, Verizon, and AT&T LTE are all available. T-Mo has LTE within Binghamton, though they're EDGE only in my particular neck of the woods.

Plus the various satellite providers.

Want me to really tick you off? I have a Grandfathered unlimited plan with Verizon Wireless. They offer unlimited tethering as an add-on for $30/mo. My 22% employer discount applies to both features, so I've got unlimited LTE for $46.80/mo. Typical speeds in the small town I reside in range from 5mbit/s at peak hours to 50mbit/s late at night.
said by rradina:

With all this choice, I only have one viable option for HSI and that's DOCSIS. Viable because the rest simply do not compare on speed or price. Not unit price, total price.

So you've picked the provider that best meets your needs. I'm not seeing the problem. Personally I used to prefer DSL over DOCSIS, because Time Warner didn't invest in our area until very recently (DOCSIS 3.0 is less than a year old here) and so had peak hour slowdowns. Even a 3mbit/s DSL line that delivered that speed 24/7 was superior in my mind to a 15mbit/s DOCSIS line that only delivered at 3AM.

Others would no doubt draw a different conclusion than I did and go with TWC, which is their prerogative.
said by rradina:

LTE is fast but not as fast as DOCSIS and ridiculously expensive with very small caps and stiff excess usage fees.

LTE has a different cost structure than HFC. Still, it's a viable option for a lot of people. I'd take it over satellite in a heart beat. Of course, I'm not a streaming video junkie.
said by rradina:

If the market was truly competitive, how can I get a full-sized BMW 7-series cheaper than an entry-level Ford/Chevy/Kia? Does that make any sense in a competitive market?

That's a silly comparison, but the answer to your question is the same as with LTE. It's a different cost structure.
said by rradina:

Are they shifting costs to other services that have even less competition (video/hard-line phone services)?

There's not a lot of margin in video services these days, competitive pressures from satellite and endless rate hikes by the content producers have seen to that. The phone is a high margin product, probably more so than HSI, so having that revenue does help the cable companies a lot.

The tread of cord cutting is going to continue to increase internet costs, something that people around here should be reflecting on as they root for the demise of cable television. The MSOs face a double edged sword:

1) They have to invest in their infrastructure to meet increasing bandwidth demand because of streaming video.

2) They're losing double and triple plays, which means they have less revenue to maintain and expand the aforementioned infrastructure.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

I haven't picked the provider that best meets my needs. It's the cheapest given all the others and the service it provides is BMW-like compared to the rest. You can say that isn't a valid comparison but the non-technical crowd doesn't understand latency, speed, packet loss and throughput. Putting it in terms of an expensive, German-engineered automobile resonates. If you believe such an automobile isn't superior to the other auto-brands I cited, I have an inter-island bridge in Hawaii that's for sale.

If you truly think HSI is competitive, we'll just have to disagree.

I'm not ticked off at your options. I could care less what you have. I'm interested in what I have and what most folks have. The consensus isn't such that most folks have genuine choice that would enable them to choose a competitor if they feel they are being abused by their current provider.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

said by rradina:

but the non-technical crowd doesn't understand latency, speed, packet loss and throughput.

Most of those factors matter very little for the "non-technical" crowd and their typical online activities.
said by rradina:

If you believe such an automobile isn't superior to the other auto-brands I cited, I have an inter-island bridge in Hawaii that's for sale.

You can't call the BMW superior without considering the totality of the circumstances. Let me give you three key areas where my $17,000 Honda Civic is superior to your $50,000 BMW: Maintenance expenses, gas mileage, and insurance costs.

The BMW is an awesome car, but the Honda is enough car for the vast majority of people.
said by rradina:

The consensus isn't such that most folks have genuine choice that would enable them to choose a competitor if they feel they are being abused by their current provider.

First World Problems. Cry me a bloody river.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

So everyone that doesn't settle for a Honda is wrong?
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

Now you're just putting words in my mouth.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

The key word is "settle".

Your words: "Honda is enough car for the vast majority of people"

By implication, if folks settle for the IoC (Internet of Crookshanks), choices abound, competition exists and life is good.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

*shrug*, I have 10 mbit/s. It's fast enough to stream Netflix HD. What else do I need? It'd be awesome to have one of the uber D3 speed tiers on those rare occasions when I download huge files, but that's a rarity for me, and not worth paying for.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to Crookshanks

Member

to Crookshanks
I hate to break it to you but WISP is not a competitor to anyone and is the last choice out of a list of horrible choices to be used. Nobody with any other kind of decent connection would ever choose a WISP.

DSL is not a competitor to cable for speeds, nor price being it generally cost the same and offers about 1/3 the speed. DSL is not true broadband and it's very limited distance to get it to be a respectable speed will keep it as a second rate connecton.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

said by Skippy25:

I hate to break it to you but WISP is not a competitor to anyone and is the last choice out of a list of horrible choices to be used.

Maybe that's the case where you live, but I've heard nothing but good things about the WISP here. They offer 10mbit/s to 30mbit/s. I'm not seeing the problem.
said by Skippy25:

DSL is not true broadband

In your humble opinion.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

DSL is not true broadband even the way the telco defined it in 1996, when they claimed 45/45mbps was broadband. Of course at that time they were trying to get their way and telling all kinds of lies to get what they wanted. Here we are almost 20 years later and a vast majority of the people can't get anything near that. Talk about a broken system. 1mb, 6mb or even the crappy 24mbps you can get if you live next door to the CO of DSL still pails in comparison to true broadband.

You continue to tout wireless, regardless of its flavor, as a substitute for wired connections but it is and never will be anything more than a second hand connection for when people want to be on the go. Wireless will always be inferior and will always be second rate. Especially with it's cost and caps.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

I'm not touting anything. I simply stated that we have a viable WISP in my hometown. I've further stated that LTE is a viable choice for people in rural areas whose only other choice is satellite.

We've got plenty of choices where I live. Don't like the choices where you are? Move.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

A 56k baud modem is also viable, but doesn't make much sense now does it?
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

That depends on what you want to use it for, doesn't it?

I'm a Unix system administrator. SSH works just fine at those speeds. I used to keep the profile for an ISP offering free dialup (they're still around, FYI) on my laptop, in the event there was an emergency at the office while I was on vacation.

You're free determine which connectivity option works the best for you. Please stop trying to make the decision for the rest of us.
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow

Premium Member

Re: You mean to say people don't diligently spend other people's money?

I think the best way to get FTTH to a lot more people is to make the fiber dumb transport a monopoly but have content providers connect to the ends and compete for the customers business. From what I have seen of the power companies in our town I would vote for the fiber to be owned by a private company. Half our town power is run by the town and the other half by a big private power company due to annexation. The private power is cheaper and the techs are more professional. The private company has to do everything right while the town does it well enough to get by. We have tough regulators on the private companies in our state.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to Crookshanks

Member

to Crookshanks
What the hell are you talking about it not being a natural monopoly.

There is such a high barrier to entry it most certainly is and I think just about everyone would agree that there should be 1 cable running to your home providing service that you get to choose the company to provide. Nobody wants every ISP to come in and dig up yards and roads or hang wires to get to a consumer that may want them. That does not make economical sense for the consumer nor for the ISP. Further cementing the fact that is a monopoly, duopoly at best.

••••••
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC

cramer to rahvin112

Premium Member

to rahvin112
You forget, the investors are the one's who want to cash out quick. (i.e. the investors are worse than the CEO's)
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow to Crookshanks

Premium Member

to Crookshanks
The Verizon Fios stopped because the CEO that supported Fios left. It was his baby and I can't remember if he was forced out or just retired but Verizon was not happy with the cost for Fios.
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

new sources of revenue?

any word on whether the state will be able to collect billions on behalf of the people for the coal mining contamination of the water supply?

BP managed to dodge a death sentence over the gulf oil disaster and pay pennies on the dollar in compensation. Perhaps more has and continues to be spent on TV commercials than in direct payment to people who lost livelihoods. No doubt WV will continue this tradition.

What's the alternative? Pay $1 per kilowatt of electricity generated?
vzguy
join:2008-10-12

vzguy

Member

to clear up some FUD

Frontier had nothing to do with the over-price routers, that failure is on the state Office of Technology, Cisco, and Verizon Network Integration. The over-priced out of state consultant was part of the same deal with Verizon.

Frontier did use money to run fiber to so-called anchor institutions, read government buildings like libraries. My main concerns are that the money was not ear-marked for residential access (like fttp or vdsl) or used to relieve any backbone congestion. This problem is mostly the government's fault though. Also, from what I read there was poor accounting of the fiber placed and high cost to place it.

WVman
@direcpc.com

WVman

Anon

Yeah but don't forget

The router was not on Frontier, it was on the States Tech dept.
They have since gotten a "Buy Back order" thru Cisco for some of them (the $22,000 Routers, that are sitting in offices down in Charleston WV that were not used.

Frontier has cock blocked James Martin at every turn, and this is a Corporate maneuver to screw City Net out of much needed funds to help them build out. Frontier has CEO's in State Government that has a conflict of interest to not let Mr. Martin do what he proposed. In effect it puts egg on his face in the media, while Frontier looks like the White Knight.

PS- Going on 2 years now and DSL still is not hooked up at my place even though they spent, I dunno how many hundreds of thousands of dollars to run fiber less then 3 miles away. And its always next month, that they will turn it on.

Brad Kalinos
@comcastbusiness.net

Brad Kalinos

Anon

We left the state because of this

Due to the corruption, and the near sighted ignorance and we know everything about everything attitudes, we picked up our company and lives and moved to Wilson NC, where they built there own fiber infrastructure. When I learned that the broadband board of WV was seated by and the head chair was from Frontier, and other seats were of owners of comcast WV, and others, I knew that nothing would happen, except exactly what happened. NOTHING.
I tried to bring technology to that state. My company demands and relies on a top tier infrastructure at a nominal price. None of which WV would offer or consider. Lumos, Comcast, and others wanted to charge $5000 to $10k plus dollars to have fiber connected, although I thought that was part of the stimulus from the govt. Then they wanted $1500+ a month for 100up and 100down. It was simply cheaper to take my company to Wilson NC, where greenlight technologies of NC, supplied me free of charge, fiber to the home, at 100 Up and 100 down, for $140 a month. This is a dedicated and sustained line. And I have the option, free of charge and no contract, to upgrade to gigibit for $160 a month. My company, which is a visual effects company and has been working on films like NOAH, Grudge Match to just name a few, moves data of 3tb a day on a slow day to places in NY, LA, and CANADA.
Im a native of WV. But after meeting, preaching and then seeing the corruption and ignorance from city to state level. I will never consider coming back to WV, only to see relatives and holidays.

WVFolk
@direcpc.com

WVFolk

Anon

So sad...

I am a business owner. I live in rural WV. We don't have a cable option or a DSL option. Our only options are Satellite or Cell, neither of which is ideal. Cell is faster than Satellite, which we get through Frontier. We get less than the minimum upload/download speeds, but it's still called "high speed". When making a choice to purchase my home, I looked into my internet options. While I knew I would have to kiss cable goodbye, Frontier ensured me that DSL was available. We bought the house. Then, they told us we lived 3 miles out too far to get DSL and our only option was Satellite, through Frontier, of course, complete with slow speeds, ridiculous caps and outrageous prices. A bait and switch, for sure. When asked when DSL would be available in our area, we were told that it would not be available until more people move into our area. Selling our home isn't an option. Closing our business isn't an option. We are limping along. Any ideas on what we can do to bring real internet connectivity into the rural areas of WV?