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Comments on news posted 2014-01-30 12:22:45: The FCC today voted unanimously to begin conducting voluntary trials to ensure a relatively smooth and reasonable transition away from the PSTN and copper networks. ..

page: 1 · 2
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

1 recommendation

Be Not Afraid

This "trial" is a great opportunity / platform to make the case against wired-abandonment.

Switching to an IP-based system does not have to imply wireless.

The real question that needs to be addressed - is whether the public is willing to pay the freight to maintain a wired network.

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY

1 recommendation

Re: Be Not Afraid

said by elray:

This "trial" is a great opportunity / platform to make the case against wired-abandonment.

Switching to an IP-based system does not have to imply wireless.

The real question that needs to be addressed - is whether the public is willing to pay the freight to maintain a wired network.

Except it won't. The reports will be glowing and the companies will move as quickly to kill wire before someone changes their mind.

I agree that the IP-based system should not imply wireless as VOIP works fine on wired lines. But as the article noted, it is being used as the vehicle to kill off copper. That too is not necessarily bad IF it was being replaced with fiber, which it is not except in those places that have FiOS.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

buzz_4_20

join:2003-09-20
Limestone, ME

Re: Be Not Afraid

While it doesn't mean wireless, the big carriers sure see it that way.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
Verizon may investigate rolling out FiOS in more places if regulatory changes no longer require them to maintain copper in areas where FiOS has been deployed. The cost savings FiOS gives Verizon from lower maintenance and fewer service calls cannot be taken advantage of as long as they are required to also maintain copper.

Are they really going to give up Baltimore, Boston, and other areas? It seems unlikely. Switching large metropolitan areas to LTE is not feasible.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Re: Be Not Afraid

Verizon does not want to deal with unions, which is another factor in all of this mess.

Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT

Re: Be Not Afraid

Would it still apply if they switched from an all-copper network to an all-fiber network?

Because, technically, Fiber is not a wire.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

Re: Be Not Afraid

At least in Massachusetts, it was union members who were the first to mention that Verizon was not expanding FiOS anymore. Most of us thought it was just FUD at the time, but it turns out in the end that Verizon really was done with FiOS except where they already had obligations.

Like any business operating in a saturated market, Verizon is looking to grow and make profits any way they can. The technicians are seen as a cost centre, and the unions were taking a big cut. The copper fire sales were a result, although, these weren't bargain bin prices, and these sales appear to be dripping in corruption that clever legal teams were able to disguise as being honest.

Netbum

join:2002-04-08
Oakley, CA
Finally you said the magic word"Fiber".
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
We have paid the freight for decades and continue to do so every year.

3 Things need to happen
1.) A decision to have 1 nationwide fiber network to every home and business that is shared by all whom want to provide service to those consumers. Any place that has electric, phone/cable or gas ran to it is perfectly capable of getting a fiber line to it.
2.) A decision in whom (or plural) will be responsible for maintaining it (with oversight) and providing connectivity to those competing to use it.
3.) A decision in how to consolidate and "compensate" the current providers for their current fiber that will become connected to it. I personally would say they get book value and if it is off their books already (expensed off against revenue), they have already been paid in full by tax breaks.

Wireless can remain the 2nd rate "on the go" connection that it is now and will always be.
silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

Re: Be Not Afraid

It is never going to happen.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Pipe dream, stop claiming a national shared network is the solution. If it was MaBell would never have been broken up if one network was the solution.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink
Not exactly. Under regulation, for instance, the major California dialtone providers went 12 years without a rate increase.

You have to pay today's freight, not whine about yesterday's, unless, of course, you want to try to get by on 40-year-old copper; sorry, but your neighbors will choose wireless over that, and you won't be willing to pay the cost to maintain it yourself.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
Reviews:
·Charter

1 recommendation

Reliability is important

I'm concerned about the reliability of wireless replacements. Wired systems had accountability and, I believe, mandated availability requirements. Wireless is like the wild west. Hope your tower has a functioning generator, enough gas to power it, and someone to refill the gas tank for outages lasting an extended period of time. Not the case? Well good luck complaining about it.

The FCC needs to take a massive role in making any transition work for the people, else it is simply a cash grab for telco to abandon the consumer wireline market for wireless.

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: Reliability is important

Eventually Wireless will be just as good (maybe better) than the wired equivalent but that's going to be some time from now. Before it can get to that the reliability factor has to go up for things like reliable power, redundant links to the site, etc.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

Corehhi

join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC
Reviews:
·Hargray Cable

1 edit
I'm with you why throw away a perfectly good system with back ups etc???? Half the wired phone bill is taxes any ways, take the taxes and fees off, leaving an in place good working system.

I don't get why the government is paying for poor people to have trac phones and at the same time is killing the wired phone system off especially with all the taxes and fees they put on your bill. I hope the paranoid hasn't gotten to the level that the government wants everyone on cell phone so they can freely spy on everyone unlike wiretap laws on wired phones.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Reliability is important

Because that same USF money is also on everyone's cell phone bills now. And as some want one here- moved to the Internet too by regulating it. So your HSI can have $10 in taxes.

IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast

7 recommendations

Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

Fine, they can pay to convert my alarm system to wireless because I cannot afford to transition it. Verizon is a company sitting on millions of dollars that can afford to convert every last customer line to FiOS, I cannot afford needed car repairs (leaking transmission that I just check the fluid and add as needed and front end work) and I need an alarm system due to my close proximity to a high crime public housing complex.

I can afford to pay my monthly bills but Verizon is still making profit off of landlines and would make even more if they'd convert the rest of their footprint to FiOS. One poster on here recently said the current CEO is more concerned about short term profit instead of long term returns like his predecessor.

Do you think I'm going to trust an alarm panel that has a 24 hour UL rated battery backup to some untested battery in a cable EMTA that dies a few hours after losing power, I don't think so and I don't think you would either.
--
I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner and I currently have DirecTV. They are much better than broadcast TV.

I have not and will not cut the cord.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

One company- ADT. Stop forcing companies to maintain networks that are outdated and not worth updating. And your claim with lottery system using dial-up modems- not the case anymore as they use HughsNet
Cobra11M

join:2010-12-23
Mineral Wells, TX

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

Hughsnet is a sorry excuse for replacement of DSL.. or even high speed internet access.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

Nobody said it was a replacement for high speed internet now did they. No, I said that HughesNet is used for lottery terminals so his claim can't be used that the lottery depends on dial-up connections.

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
+1 +1 +1....
I HATE and I mean HATE it when a customer has ADT.

It's 2014, not 1994. ADT it's time to get with the program and solve YOUR problem not the other way around.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

are you saying ADT is better or what?

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

ADT is crap. They are still stuck in the 90s because their crap won't work reliably over VoIP where almost all of local based vendors have no trouble at all with lines that are VoIP based.

The only thing they will do for the customer is say "Well it worked before, better go back to at&t." They will not under any circumstances work with us to find a solution for a mutual customer.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.
NJank

join:2008-09-02
Catonsville, MD

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

funny. my alarm currently goes uses the copper line. but when I signed up they gave me a number of options: wired (copper/POTS), cellular, or wired (VOIP compatible).

its not that ADT can't support other technologies. its that you'd have to pick the modem that matches what you have, and it costs money to change. for the $40/mo minimum that ADT rips you, they should swap your hardware for free if you change.

IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast
I know one of the crossing guards (my mother's co-worker) lives in a house that abuts the projects and she has ADT and she won't switch phone providers because ADT tells her to stick to Verizon landline.

If I lived in a house that abutted the projects, I'd have Verizon mount the NID at the second story level so an intruder cannot access the lines. Fortunately mine comes in underground and into the basement.
--
I've experienced ImOn (when they were McLeod USA), Mediacom, Comcast, and Time Warner and I currently have DirecTV. They are much better than broadcast TV.

I have not and will not cut the cord.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

BS- ADT won't tell you to keep an alarm, those can be cut easily. ADT's thing is wireless. Why? you don't need a landline. ADT pushes their wireless systems for a reason. It is controlled 100% by them. It uses the VZW and AT&T and in some areas even TMO for the network providers.

You also please stop claiming that just because its a public housing complex the crime is high. The crime is high in your city due to the low employment rate- less jobs - more crime. Maybe if you accepted the issue that you need $$$ coming in and accepted the casino money crime would go down. Plus with even a NID at a 2nd story level, those can still be pulled down. The line has to come down still to be connected to something. And a simple step ladder and pole can yank the line down very easily.

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
"If I lived in a house that abutted the projects"

If that's a problem then the best thing to do is move. Police response is slow in a lot of areas so the alarm isn't going to do much for a seasoned criminal.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.
Expand your moderator at work
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

said by IowaCowboy:

Fine, they can pay to convert my alarm system to wireless because I cannot afford to transition it.

They don't owe you a replacement alarm system, anymore than they owed OnStar customers with AMPS units a replacement when the FCC finally let them decommission AMPS.

Technology changes. Adapt or die.

said by IowaCowboy:

and I need an alarm system due to my close proximity to a high crime public housing complex.

Exercise your 2nd Amendment rights. The alarm system isn't going to magically get the police there in time to keep your ass alive if the worst happens. Nor is it going to get them there in time to save your property if someone breaks in while you're away. That's what insurance is for.

Residential security alarms are a joke. You might as well take the money out your pocket and set it on fire, at least that will provide a few BTUs and so reduce your heating bill.
clone

join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

1 recommendation

Re: Then they can pay for the conversion of customer equipment

Stop using logic reason with people! The only thing that matters is emotion and fear. Haven't you been paying attention lo these last fifteen-odd years? Advocating self-sufficiency and being responsible for one's own safety...sounds like terrorist talk to me!
waycoolphil

join:2000-09-22
Cathedral City, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
The most effective burglary deterrent component of a residential alarm system is the yard sign of a legitimate widely recognized company (like ADT). That's why the signs are stolen so frequently. Someone cruising a neighborhood sees houses with and without alarm yard signs. Which one would you choose? I'd go for the one without the sign.

••••••
clone

join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

5 recommendations

If you need a new car (leaking transmission and broken front-end is a sure sign of that), a home alarm system is an unneeded luxury.

Besides, remember that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. I've told you this before, but you really need to stop relying on the nanny state (that has proven time and time again it can't protect us) and be responsible for your own safety and security.

Home alarm systems are pseudo-security for the weak and dependent.

••••

Simba7
I Void Warranties

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
said by IowaCowboy:

Fine, they can pay to convert my alarm system to wireless because I cannot afford to transition it.

Technically, it would work if you used G.711 for VoIP. I'm experimenting utilizing a set of USR Courier modems and my old BBS. If you have a decent latency connection, it is doable.
said by IowaCowboy:

Do you think I'm going to trust an alarm panel that has a 24 hour UL rated battery backup to some untested battery in a cable EMTA that dies a few hours after losing power, I don't think so and I don't think you would either.

Not that hard to get an UPS and plugging the MTA into it. Also, it's more like 6-8 hours before the battery starts getting low.
--
Bresnan 30M/5M | CenturyLink 5M/896K
MyWS[PnmIIX3@3.3G,8G RAM,2T+2T+1.5T HDDs,Win7]
MyLaptop[Asus G53SX,32GB RAM,2x1TB HDD,Win7]
WifeWS[C2D@2.4G,4G RAM,250G HDD,Win7]
Router[PE1750,4G RAM,3x36G HDD,2xIntel Pro/1000+GT Quad Port,Gentoo]
phazah

join:2004-05-02
Findlay, OH

nudge nudge nudge

good bye to corporate run copper...

and hello to federally ran fiberoptic....
*sigh*

cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

In other news...

..your taxes pay for internet and telco profits!
--
Splat

Mr Guy

@charter.com

1 recommendation

The OP contridicts himself

quote:
While one side of the IP transition honestly involves the necessary and inevitable migration away from the PSTN and copper and toward IP-based technologies, AT&T and Verizon have used the transition as cover for a massive effort to strip consumer protections on millions of DSL lines they refuse to upgrade.
If migration away from copper is "necessary and inevitable" then why insist that at&t and Verizon upgrade lines? That's like insisting that at&t and Verizon MUST keep pay phones around because not everyone has a smartphone. You upgrade a line because you expect to have several DECADES of use out of it. Not "you upgrade these lines even though in less than 10 years they'll be useless".

••••

Furrever Fur
Premium
join:2012-02-20
united state
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Comcast

1 recommendation

What about the older folks ?

How will this affect older folks, besides negatively ? The ones who have the PERS alarms ("help, I've fallen) that use traditional landlines? And what about the oldsters who either aren't tech savvy with a cell phone or just flat out can't afford a cell phone ?

Poorly thought out, but - as I'm not in charge of the universe, they didn't ask me.

••••••
westdc

join:2009-01-25
Amissville, VA
kudos:1

Monopoly Broken

Can't force a fix
63475675

join:2014-01-06

ATT & Verizon need to pay back hundreds of millions to taxpayers..

If these two corporate duopolies are going to cease using these lines copper lines they must pay back the US taxpayers the numerous handouts they have received from we citizens over the years.

How much would they owe. It has to be hundreds of millions at least.

As for wireless, the cost and caps will be outrageously expensive for folks that already are economically stressed to the max.

Guess what ATT/Verizon, most of the customers you THINK you will gain for wireless internet will NEVER be able to afford that service. Not to mention that practically speaking the quality of service will never stand up to wired lines.

•••

Jon Geb
Wal-Mart Sucks

join:2001-01-09
Howell, MI

Luddites

I come to this website to read about new technology and future forms of communication and we have people all bent out of shape over 130+ year old technology that will only be shut off if a replacement is available.

Look into Verizon Home Phone Connect. We use 2 of them with our business and they are $19.95 a month each... We run freezer alarms with them, so I know they work for Home Security as well. Guess what? Nobody can CLIP your line from the outside. They run on AC and have like 5 day battery backup. Foolproof.
Snowbird

join:2014-01-15
United State

Re: Luddites

I would jump on the bandwagon of new technology in a heartbeat - if it was available. In my area of the snowy boondocks of Northern Michigan, we have no choice but DSL over a land line. Cable not available. Satellite coverage ebbs and flows with the weather. It's just been within the past couple of years that AT&T updated cellular from Edge to 3G. And even that coverage is spotty.
nrobot80

join:2012-12-05
Union City, GA

Keeping up

Here in North America the US and Canada, we are the only countries still relying on copper fixed line telephone systems. In other parts of the world, people use wireless phones and businesses use VOIP systems for their phones. The analog telephone is the last technology to go digital and it's on life support. If the masses weren't so afraid of change then we could see more fiber ran to homes because the demand for fiber would be higher. Right now the big telco execs that demand for fiber sounds like a very quiet whisper, so the telcos keep using cost as an excuse to keep using the old outdated copper networks. If the government ran fiber like they ran copper way back when, we would be in the 21 century in terms of Internet speeds and bandwidth.
jorcmg

join:2002-10-24
Covington, GA

Re: Keeping up

At&t and its bell subsidiaries as a natural monopoly ran the copper not the government. The government can't get a website running let alone operate a network.
spyknee

join:2007-11-30
Woodside, NY

redundency

I live in NYC, and during 911 there was zero cell service. Wireless "only" is not a smart choice.

During Sandy it was the Jersey shore and islands off the shore that lost copper services, a somewhat small cross section of the total. Verizons refusal to replace is because its a relatively small group of peeps who "need" it, hence they cannot profit from it.

This country needs redundant communication systems for the safety of the nation! This means copper, wireless, fibre and satellite. You can bet the government and military will not be forced to strictly wireless.

Copper can be replaced by carbon nano fiber.

It is stupid to risk the countries national security so that an American corporation, that has been infiltrated by foreigners ie: stock holders, can reap trillions of dollars.
Its stupid to force American citizens to overpay un-American corporate rates. I have nothing against profits, sane profits that is!

Its the middle class that's the backbone of the nation, over charging them at every turn, for every modern day necessity, will not float the economy. It merely places a sandbar in the middle of the channel.
countscabula

join:2010-03-09

Pay attention!

Just pay attention to the "discrete geographic areas" the TELCOS select to do there trials. We'll see how many rural areas they do their "trials" in. Trust me, these trials are going to be successful, it's a foregone conclusion.

tigerpaw509

join:2011-01-19

Funny Stuff

The copper aint going anywhere nor is fiber replacing it.The telco's just want to turn off dial up service for Ip based service over the same copper wires.....nothing more.They want to be 100% unregulated and have wireless only....nothing more.
countscabula

join:2010-03-09

Re: Funny Stuff

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!
OwlSaver
OwlSaver
Premium
join:2005-01-30
Berwyn, PA

We could address a few issues at once

Turn the Post Office into the sole common carrier that delivers Fiber bandwidth to the home. Stop mail delivery and turn all package delivery over to UPS/FedEx/etc. People without computers can get a free printer to print any mail sent to them. Everyone else gets email. AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, Google, etc. can deliver services over the Post Offices Fiber. The services would be Voice, TV, etc. The money saved on shutting down mail delivery and selling off post offices could be used to run Fiber to every home in the US. Other than putting a few hundred thousand people out of work, what could possibly go wrong?

wiegeit2

@charter.com

Re: We could address a few issues at once

I like this idea.
Obviously private business is unwilling to provide what has become for all intensive purposes, a utility with reasonable consistency and price.

There IS a place for such an organization. Most folks don't realize either that the USPS is not a traditional gov't agency either, it is a for profit business, heavily regulated by the government to provide a critical service for ALL citizens.

fg8578

join:2009-04-26
Salem, OR

FCC Order

is available here:

»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···-5A1.pdf

nonamesleft

join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

So now a box to get phone service will be required?

Who wants a box to have to connect there phone to? Its like voip, unreliable. Having to rely on all this fancy electronic boxes and sorts makes it all unreliable. The problem with copper, is that they refuse to offer decent affordable prices.

Milliwatt

join:2010-01-26
Hotchkiss, CO

IP Transition

I love this issue. Before someone is forced to pry your cold dead hands from your 2500 set, think about these issues.

»wsrl.org/images/adsl-2.jpg

This is the reality of metallic pairs.

»www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

Where is the U.S. on this page?

»www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201···-science

Where is the U.S. on this page?

»wsrl.org/images/china1.jpg

How about this page?

»www.marketwatch.com/story/are-am···14-01-17

Are you too stupid?

Is your cordless phone going to work in a power outage? How about your FTTN cabinet? It's your taxpayer money that is driving this-

»wsrl.org/tds2.htm
»wsrl.org/fiber.htm

What about the $750 billion they have already stolen?

»www.amazon.com/Broadbandits-Insi···71660612

linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
Reviews:
·TracFone Wireless
·CenturyLink

The elephant

The big issue is rural where towns are 20 miles apart. The giants that have the money: AT&T, Cox, Verizon, TW, and Comcast are going to keep it. They sold the rural, mid and small markets years ago - which is why we pay $90 for POTS plus 1.5,3,4,5,6,or 7 download speeds, or $150 for 15 download, to second tier telco and third tier local cable companies. Anyone who calls itself a telco is required by law to maintain battery backup for x hours.

If you have never been in substantial rural storm you have no idea how valuable communication is.

POTS delivers phone service over copper. DSL, FIOS, cell towers are limited in range. No telco is going to deliver FTTH or FTTN to multiple places of 500 population or less that are spread over 600 square mile counties. It is as much a pipe dream as fast, affordable Internet, TV, or phone until another scheme is hatched that actually works. .
--
Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside
xdbmx

join:2013-08-10

Already mandatory not voluntary in Massachusetts for Verizon customers.

Here in Massachusetts, Verizon is already forcing its customers to switch from copper to FiOS in neighborhoods that have FiOS, on pain of termination of service.


I use another company for internet, but I have kept my copper phone line because it functions as a power failure phone, which FiOS, VoIP and cable phones do not. FiOS phones do have battery backup (which the customer is apparently responsible for purchasing and maintaining) but given that I sometimes lose power for days at a time (October blizzard) this is not nearly enough.


Anyway, the quality of the copper lines has been degrading for a while. Recently I had trouble with my service, called support, declined a FiOS package, and was told a tech would be out to fix the line the next day, and that I did not need to be home for the visit (since I was calling from the network interface box and knew the problem was outside my house). When a tech arrived (luckily I was home at the time), he knocked on the door and informed me that he was there to install FiOS, would only install FiOS, and would do nothing else. When I again declined FiOS, he put me on speakerphone with his supervisor, who informed me that Verizon would never be fixing or maintaining the lines in my neighborhood, and unless I accepted FiOS right then and there I would never receive any customer service from Verizon and would be receiving a "registered letter" within 30 days. However, he did not specify what the contents of the letter would be.


The supervisor also claimed that the conversion to FiOS would be free, and that my monthly charges would remain unchanged, however I wasn't offered anything in writing about this. Since this is an industry with all sorts of "offers" with obscured charges and hidden prices, I would want to see fine print.


Has anybody here been force-converted from copper to FiOS for Verizon POTS? If so, are there hidden charges? And how inconvenient is the beeping of the battery backup?


Possibly related: Verizon is lobbying hard to eliminate its legal requirement to provide universal phone service in Massachusetts. See here for details.