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Comments on news posted 2014-02-10 18:19:31: Netflix today released their latest ISP streaming rankings, which, as the name suggests, track the average performance of all Netflix streams on each ISPs network. ..


Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA
·Verizon FiOS

Mike

Mod

Shower Time

quote:
We state unequivocally that Verizon’s broadband Internet access services deliver a pristine user experience to our customers at any time of day on every day of the week.
I need to take a shower after reading that. Either that or I just bought a used Buick. I'm certainly paying Verizon for one that's for sure.

norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA

1 recommendation

norm

Member

Re: Shower Time

* - within Verizon's network only, maybe... Decent access to other tier 1 networks subject to terrible prime time peering

Mr Guy
@charter.com

1 recommendation

Mr Guy to Mike

Anon

to Mike
enough with conspiracy theories. Shit if Verizon wanted to limit usage they have cap like everyone else.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926 to Mike

Member

to Mike
I cant wait to see how far Netflix drops them in the rankings when Verizon injects RedBox into their own STB's . Its only a matter of time. Personally, I cant understand where these numbers come from because the majority of time I used Netflix on FiOS, the Netflix software told me the connection was well over 30Mbps. Something just doesnt add up.

MovieLover76
join:2009-09-11
Cherry Hill, NJ
(Software) pfSense
Asus RT-AC68
Asus RT-AC66

MovieLover76 to Mike

Member

to Mike
It's definitely a load of BS, I've been getting horrible crappy netflix performance that goes down to 240SD all of the time, not just prime time. Meanwhile my connection still tests at 50 Mbps down on speedtests. The peering point is beyond saturated and Verizon isn't doing anything about it.

Worst part is that the only competition in my area is Comcast, wish is worse than FiOS so I'm pretty screwed. And I'm paying a premium for this garbage.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: Shower Time

Don't feel bad. You could be sitting in a market like me that has AT&T vs Charter.
v12dock
join:2011-05-21
Chillicothe, IL

1 edit

v12dock

Member

Mediacom

Mediacom took a beating but I feel like their network has been suffering over the past few months. Mediacom needs to find someone else besides ATT to peer with things have to be getting throttled

Gilitar
join:2012-02-01
Mobile, AL

Gilitar

Member

Re: Mediacom

said by v12dock:

Mediacom took a beating but I feel like their network has been suffering over the past few months. Mediacom needs to find someone else besides ATT to peer with things have to be getting throttled

Yep and if you notice AT&T U-Verse took a beating as well. Throttle city!!!

fonzbear2000
Premium Member
join:2005-08-09
Saint Paul, MN

fonzbear2000

Premium Member

LOL!

Comcast didn't even make the list! Damn!

norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA

1 recommendation

norm

Member

Re: LOL!

»ispspeedindex.netflix.com/usa ranked 14. The picture attached to the article only shows the first 13. Still terrible but on the list regardless.

Jon Geb
Long time member
join:2001-01-09
Howell, MI

Jon Geb to fonzbear2000

Member

to fonzbear2000
I pay for Netflix, but will be pirating House of Cards this Friday. I have Blast internet speed through Comcast, but can't stream even SD without buffering every 20 seconds.
TBBroadband
join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

TBBroadband

Member

Re: LOL!

That's not a Comcast issue. I've had the same thing on Netflix on both coax and FTTN services. It's clearly a Netflix issue with the peering they have set up when it happens on more than one service provider.
silbaco
Premium Member
join:2009-08-03
USA

silbaco to fonzbear2000

Premium Member

to fonzbear2000
You know it's bad when they get beat by Windstream.
Bob61571
join:2008-08-08
Washington, IL

Bob61571

Member

Re: LOL!

....and Frontier!!!!

RR Conductor
Ridin' the rails
Premium Member
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
ARRIS SB6183
Netgear R7000

RR Conductor to fonzbear2000

Premium Member

to fonzbear2000
said by fonzbear2000:

Comcast didn't even make the list! Damn!

Here in our area, Comcast is awesome-




We're in a very rural area (Redwood Valley) up here in Mendocino County in NW CA too, so I feel pretty lucky to have that. We're on the Blast! Tier.
BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Wakefield, MA

BosstonesOwn

Member

Re: LOL!

Ahmm yeah that is only on the Comcast network.

Go outside that network and it gets worse. It seems like every isp is starting to get in the way and driving traffic now.
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina to RR Conductor

Member

to RR Conductor
When you say rural, do you mean "South America" rural? It says you are 7,950 miles from San Jose, CA!
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to RR Conductor

Member

to RR Conductor
Speed test are certainly not indication of "awesome" internet connection.

RR Conductor
Ridin' the rails
Premium Member
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
ARRIS SB6183
Netgear R7000

RR Conductor

Premium Member

Re: LOL!

said by Skippy25:

Speed test are certainly not indication of "awesome" internet connection.

Well, I get those speeds and pings 24x7, so for me that connection is "awesome"

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Yes, it's complicated.... The plan....

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· 2P6m5cX0


Those peering links are just hard to understand. Or, you could say that management's oversight of them is so "Complicated."

Bootes
Premium Member
join:2005-01-28
New York, NY

Bootes

Premium Member

Re: Yes, it's complicated.... The plan....

This is similar to what was already going on though. Cablevision is so high up because they signed a CDN deal with Netflix awhile ago. »www.lightreading.com/cab ··· d/700511
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: Yes, it's complicated.... The plan....

And that helps them with their peering.

A CDN deal is a win / win situation for both companies.

JimThePCGuy
Formerly known as schja01.
MVM
join:2000-04-27
Morton Grove, IL

JimThePCGuy

MVM

Good to see Clearwire is not dead last again

Actually Clearwire has been streaming Netflix quite well for me for the past weeks.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

1 edit

David

Premium Member

One thing to also consider

considering many ISP's were or might still be having problems with youtube streaming

»Why Is Everyone Having YouTube Streaming Issues? [149] comments

I still would have a very hard time believing anything google says. One question I know I won't get an answer to (much less an intelligent one I would believe) is why was it certain folks have to block certain peering IP addresses to get better performance?

inquiring minds still want a intelligent answer to that question. They sidestep it as much as Ted Cruz does about the government shutdown.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Re: One thing to also consider

All ISP's? I think that's a broad brush. I'm on Cox and Youtube streaming has been very good. Being doing a lot more then usual lately, too.

Hard Harry7
join:2010-10-19
Narragansett, RI

Hard Harry7

Member

Re: One thing to also consider

Cox had all kinds of problems with Youtube. Just not in some areas. You must have gotten lucky. Lets just say their CDN rollout was a big ol' flop. I think they have since pulled it.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to David

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to David
Interesting thing about the video linked to in that story. The poster lays it all out, It's Time Warner's fault.

A test where one Youtube HD video and one Vimeo HD video were loaded with two different internet connections ( bench marking the connections using speedtest.net before the tests )

One connection was a Time Warner Cable Internet service rated for 30Mbps down, 5Mpbs up. These speeds were verified by speedtest.net. I can also verify these speeds are consistent based on things I do like download large games from Steam.

The other connection was a Verizon 4G iPhone set up as a Personal Hot Spot. LTE bandwidth in my home ranges from 15-40Mbps down and 4-25Mbps up whenever I do speed tests.

I need to make some clarification about what I mean by Time Warner "Throttling" bandwidth. Time Warner isn't throttling my home internet connection. If they were, I wouldn't be able to achieve the 30/5 Mbit speed I showed in the video. Instead, they are either throttling the bandwidth from the caching servers their customers are routed to or the caching servers are congested beyond their capacity. Either way, Time Warner has a responsibility to their customers to address these issues.

Google doesn't own the servers that predominantly serve up video to Time Warner customers. Google has a caching and peering network that allows traffic to be routed to servers that are considered "ideal" for the viewer of the video. The viewer's internet provider, geographic location, and DNS server are all taken into account in this selection. Unfortunately, Google's peering agreements allow ISP's to direct YouTube traffic to servers they own or lease to cut down on their bandwidth overhead costs. YouTube also builds in throttling algorithms into the video player itself to help alleviate congestion. For example, if you pause a video, you may notice that it stops loading until you press play again. Things like this are done so that the server doesn't waste a bunch of bandwidth serving up a huge video file that someone may only watch the first few seconds of. Unfortunately, this kind of thing prevents you from pausing the video and waiting for it to load. The video will only load when it is being played, and since it is loading slower than it is playing, it's virtually unwatchable.

Caching servers, peering networks, CDN's and etc. are useful and important aspects of the internet. It wouldn't be feasible for a site like YouTube to exist without them.

It is Time Warner's responsibility, however, to ensure the quality and integrity of the routing and content caching servers they have influence over for a website like YouTube. When your internet service provider has an incentive to route traffic in a way that maximizes their dollar earned, you can assume they aren't going to invest money in servers and infrastructure until they have to.

Many users have complained about the same issues on Time Warner, and someone else actually helped me discover the IP range of the caching servers are the culprit of these problems. I'm still investigating, but I believe that Time Warner owns or leases these caching servers, and are responsible for not scaling them adequately to handle the demand of their customers.

I will be posting a follow-up video explaining how to block these servers using your router or computer's firewall. When the YouTube player realizes you can't connect to the server it routes you to, it will fall back to its own network and servers. The reason why the YouTube video loaded so quickly in the Verizon 4G test is that the video was loaded directly from a YouTube server.

You can actually see what server Youtube will serve you video from by going to: »redirector.c.youtube.com/repor...

I have no idea how to resolve the results of that tool to an actual IP address or anything yet.

Reference info:
»www.reddit.com/r/technology/co...
»peering.google.com/about/faq....
»www-users.cs.umn.edu/~viadhi/r...


David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

1 edit

David

Premium Member

Re: One thing to also consider

yea it's quite funny one of those ranges mentioned.

206.111.0.0/16
173.194.55.0/24

I will just leave this one:

»/whois ··· 194.55.0

Oh lookie there that's google! Whoops!

This one was XO's »/whois ··· .111.0.0

What I am sure I won't get an honest answer to is this: Why does anyone have to block "Google" to see Youtube? I suspect I won't get an intelligent answer to that question either, much less an answer I want to believe.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Re: One thing to also consider

They aren't blocking google. They are blocking the routing through the cache servers their ISP controls.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

I guess forgive me if I am absolutely wrong, but I guess what I understood about BGP was google would "advertize" a route to connect to. Now what I have yet to ascertain is why not have separate routes for each ISP? What I find something I know I won't get an intelligent answer to was (and still is) why shove every last ISP in north america down the same advertisement tunnel (s)? Did they really thing they could just pull the con-fab and think no one on their ISPs would catch on? I find it also quite interesting that they waited a whole year while the dust on them settles down to pull the "Oh here, monitor your ISP's performance!" kerfluffle a year later (almost to the day they got called out in that article)?

I didn't forget quite as easily as others around here do, so forgive me if I find their latest stunt laughable at best.
Expand your moderator at work

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to David

Premium Member

to David

Re: One thing to also consider

The ISP's make agreements designed to lower their costs. That could be routing to certain cache servers.

Another thing people are always overlooking.... who finds a user's experience with Youtube more important to their bottom line? Google or Comcast? Same with Netflix.... who is it more important to that their users can stream... Netflix or at&t?

To one, it's their income. To the other, they view it as an expense or even a competitor. Logic dictates which side would be more likely to drag their feet....

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to KrK

Member

to KrK
"It's Time Warner's fault"

You don't have access to the network and facts to say who's at fault. You can only say the problem lies between TW and Youtube. This is similar to the DirectTV/Insert Network Here disputes. Both sides will say it's the other side's fault but neither side is willing to lay out the facts for the public to see.

"It is Time Warner's responsibility,"

No, it's Time Warner AND Google's responsibility. This is two way traffic so each side has to work together.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Re: One thing to also consider

The OP did quite a bit of researching it, and had quite a lot of convincing evidence.... and it pointed smack at TWC.
slckusr
Premium Member
join:2003-03-17
Greenville, SC

slckusr to David

Premium Member

to David
I havent had an issue with streaming youtube since I moved out of Ohio with Uverse and got this Charter service in SC. /shrug (or ive been using it less).

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

Cabal to David

Premium Member

to David
I have had zero issues with Youtube on Suddenlink in the past 3 years.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop to David

Member

to David
"considering all ISP's are having problems with youtube streaming"

I run on ISP network and help manage a few others. None of them experience the problems you are talking about. I have equipment on several other ISP networks and none of them have this problem either.

There are probably fewer ISPs with this problem than you think.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

Re: One thing to also consider

I reworded it a bit, I still continue to have problems unless I block those ranges and use apps to control the problem. Though after the wii app update for youtube and using a smartube extention for chrome or firefox it seems to not be as bad. Without those or the blocking it's a crapshoot on any normal machine without these.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

1 recommendation

iansltx

Member

TWC is getting better...

...with YouTube at least. I haven't watched anything on Netflix on my home connection in awhile...the rest of my family uses my Netflix account though.

Wasn't long ago that I had serious buffering issues with YouTube. Now I'm not seeing as many/any primetime slowdowns, and can stream in 1080p without tunneling through some other ISP.

My parents are now on a small local ISP (4/1 LTE for $50, with no cap); I'll have to check to see how their Netflix streaming is going. I imagine that it's just fine up to 720p, which is all their TV will support anyway (though the Chromecast plugged into it can of course do 1080p).

linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium Member
join:2002-12-03
United State

linicx

Premium Member

This is too funny

Three of the bottom four in the -1 and below column are Century Link, Frontier, and U-Verse. They are all in my isolated rural area. I have options: movies on SAT TV, Red Box, local Video store, Netflix by mail, plus computer. As I am not addicted to movies I am money ahead.

Netflixisp
@144.211.43.x

Netflixisp

Anon

Netflix Shenanigans?

Looking at this over time many ISPs drop at the same time.... Isn't that due to Netflix decisions vs ISPs?

••••••••

camper
just visiting this planet
Premium Member
join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT

camper

Premium Member

Beyond raising questions...

Still, the dismal performance of FiOS (7), AT&T U-Verse (12) Comcast (14) and Verizon DSL (last place, behind even Clearwire) continues to raises questions.
 

The time for "raising questions" is in the rearview mirror.

Now it is time that the ISPs fix the self-imposed "problem" (they're not fooling anyone anymore), and stop trying to blame the content providers for the inability (or lack of desire) of the ISPs to deliver the traffic that their customers have paid for.

ItsAllBull
@verizon.net

ItsAllBull

Anon

Re: Beyond raising questions...

I switched from cable to Fios 3 months ago. Ever since the switch I get buffering and internet too slow messages streaming Netflix on the TV. I never had the problem with cable. Fios customer service is very sorry for my inconvenience.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Comcast that low?

We never have issues with Netflix on Comcast... it always works just fine...

And of course Verizon DSL is going to be slow... DSL is slow! No throttling or conspiracy there.

Also, all ISPs should put in Netflix's CDN, it's just common sense. It's disappointing to see some ISPs fighting it.

•••••
muzicman82
join:2011-12-05
Bear, DE

muzicman82

Member

UnoTelly to the rescue.

I was having horrible streaming. I signed up for UnoTelly, which I guess just changes my DNS in some way so perhaps Netflix thinks I am somewhere else or from a different ISP and I get a different server. Sped me right up to full 50 Mbps.

I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't Verizon and just Netflix CDN saying "Oh, another FiOS user... let's not let them hog bandwidth" so they throw you to a slower or throttled server.

•••

empire5
join:2002-07-31
Rosharon, TX

1 recommendation

empire5

Member

so sad

Ive followed this chart for years and I still cant comprehend how companies get away with such mediocre service.

Clearly lobbying is still tremendously effective.

amarryat
Verizon FiOS
join:2005-05-02
Marshfield, MA

amarryat

Member

YouTube ratings would slip too

Last night I was trying to watch a YouTube video on my phone and it would stop to buffer every couple of seconds, for a few seconds. This was on my 50/25 FIOS connection. Then I switched off wifi and my T-Mobile phone switched to the very poor 4G signal (0,1 bars), and started playing the video flawlessly.

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

Packeteers

Premium Member

TWC moving up in the World

it's nice to see TWC showing 2Mb/s which is needed to stream video properly.
I know TWC gets a lot of grief here, but in NYC I find their service to be great.
I stream 720p on my Roku3 while using my PC for so many other online tasks,
and I rarely feel any congestion with my cheap standard speed 15/1 service.
I can't wait - later this year when MAXX on my Docsis3 upgrades me to 50/5,
then I'll finally be fast enough to enjoy using cloud storage at the same cost.

TrafficGame
@anonymouse.org

2 recommendations

TrafficGame

Anon

This is Known as Traffic Manipulation

Based on the timeline and ISP make up, this really smells like Netflix manipulating the traffic paths. Things we know

1. ISPs that joined OpenConnect seem to increase in speed at the same rate broadband has
2. ISPs that have not joined OpenConnect have almost all decreased at the same time as Netflix moved off of Akamai, Limelight, etc over to their transit ISPs
3. Other video services that use their own as well as 3rd party CDNs have not decreased in performance to poorly ranked Netflix ISPs
4. Mlabs ISP performance decreases at the same instant as Netflix moved their traffic (perhaps they are sharing the same transit)

In general it appears that Netflix transit decisions are actually causing Netflix performance issues AND these decisions are what is causing the peering problems. When you swing a big pipe, you can break things in the path.

Interestingly enough there are other big pipe players like Akamai, Google, etc that swing traffic WITHOUT causing customer impact.

Is this Netflix causing these issues and do you think they are doing it out of being new or being purposeful?
TrafficGame

1 recommendation

TrafficGame

Anon

Re: This is Known as Traffic Manipulation

PS - I keep asking myself "why would Netflix do this to customers" The only thing I keep coming up with is customers won't blame them and will blame the ISPs and pressure them to give Netflix special privileges... that sounds like what is happening.... Interesting strategy.
crgauth
join:2004-05-18
Glen Burnie, MD

crgauth

Member

Netflix states Verizon not Slowing their traffic

Straight from their CEOs mouth:
»recode.net/2014/02/11/ne ··· streams/
old_wiz_60
join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

old_wiz_60

Member

Verizon wants...

customers to use their own PPV since that earns them more cash. Pretty soon we will see Amazon Instant Video being throttled as well. Now that verizon killed network neutrality probably by slipping cash to the right judges, they van throttle any service that conflicts with their own.

Verizon and the others hate to think of becoming just a dumb pipe.