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Comments on news posted 2014-02-24 14:20:40: It looks like Verizon won't be too far behind Comcast, who over the weekend struck a deal charging Netflix for direct interconnection to Comcast's users. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next


IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

1 edit

One by one they go...

»www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the···bsolete/

"...Another is Ars Technica's recent story about a dispute between the backbone provider Cogent and Verizon. Netflix is a Cogent customer. Surging Netflix traffic has been overwhelming the links between Cogent and Verizon. Cogent has asked for those links to be upgraded, but according to Cogent, Verizon has demanded payment for upgrading the links. (When Ars asked Verizon for comment, a spokesman declined to comment on the specifics of the negotiation.)"

Cogent is no longer a relevant player. The next "Netflix" will need to deal with an ISP like Comcast or Verizon directly and pay the "going rate". That's a potentially dangerous precedent.
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army



NF345

@sbcglobal.net

Rate will go up

The fee will be passed to consumers.


Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to IPPlanMan

Re: One by one they go...

in some ways this reflects multiple problems. First off is the death of net neutrality.

But no I see something far deeper... Netflix Streaming filled a hole that big firms like Verizon and Comcast should have never allowed to exist to begin with.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports



IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

1 recommendation


Get ready...
What we have here is "double dipping"... just like a supermarket charges customers for products and then turns around and charges food companies for premium shelf space.

That's what the Internet is turning into.

YDC

join:2007-11-13
Hewlett, NY

1 recommendation

Peering is a two-way street

The Internet is built upon peering arrangements. An arrangement means traffic is EXCHANGED, not streamed one way. The agreement may simply be that they share their backbone with these companies more freely, thereby offloading some content to Cogent, who probably doesn't do very much of that now as they can weight their BGP so nothing much comes their way. If that cannot be achieved then it is not a peering arrangement and should be subsidized. I ran an ISP for quite some time and know all about this. If you are not a peer then you are a customer, and you pay. Nothing new here.. move on gents!


AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to IPPlanMan

Re: One by one they go...

said by IPPlanMan:

Cogent is no longer a relevant player. The next "Netflix" will need to deal with an ISP like Comcast or Verizon directly and pay the "going rate". That's a potentially dangerous precedent.

Not really, they will start the same as NetFlix did most likely using shared resources such as AWS at first, then scaling to their own infrastructure but still using transit providers like Level 3 and Cogent for transport with the eventual progression to more direct relationships such as NetFlix has just done. This isn't unique to NetFlix, almost any Internet content provider of sizable volume has to go through this transition.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to Kearnstd

said by Kearnstd:

First off is the death of net neutrality.

It has nothing to do with net neutrality, it's simple economics.

YDC

join:2007-11-13
Hewlett, NY

1 recommendation

Netflix is cheating you too..

By the way, Netflix is cheating you too! If they bought multiple backbones there would be no peering arrangement needed. They chose the cheap route. That means they pay less and make more. You on the other hand will end up paying for this if they do not. Someone has to foot the bill.

When things get tossed under the carpet for too long, those routers, people to manage them, power to run them, cooling for the data centers, fiber to connect them and all the fun that happens every day on the carrier platform where carriers try to offload on their neighbors instead of upgrading eventually come back to haunt them.

Don't get me wrong here.. The plan is to make money for all involved, but sometimes when one network feeds all the traffic at the others, they may want to make a little too. Most ISPs and co-location facilities have MANY paths to the Internet. They spread their bandwidth among the links proportionally and try (using BGP) to get the most direct path. That usually means traffic for one network goes through their peer to it or as close as possible to it. This is a peering arrangement that works. If a leg drops there are other paths to get out as well so this is good all the way. It means faster traffic and more throughput. If you cheat as Netflix does all of this fails and traffic does hit bottlenecks.

That's all there is to it. They need to buy more network connections. They should not mooch on the world. We pay for multiple connections as co-lo and cloud structures should. So should they.

No, I do not work for any telco, but like you, I pay them.



Mr Guy

@charter.com

1 recommendation

reply to IPPlanMan

Re: One by one they go...

hyperbole much?



Mr Guy

@charter.com

looks like mountain actually molehill

Oh noes the sky is falling!!!!!! Yeah and the world ended on Dec 21 2012 too.


iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
reply to YDC

Re: Netflix is cheating you too..

Last I checked, Netflix has arrangements with providers other than Cogent. Heck, Level3 paying Comcast as a direct result of Netflix using Level3 for serving up their videos.


serge87

join:2009-11-29
reply to YDC

Re: Peering is a two-way street

But the sky is falling!!!!1 wake up sheeple!


serge87

join:2009-11-29
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

2 recommendations

reply to IPPlanMan

Re: One by one they go...



Mr Guy

@charter.com

2 recommendations

reply to NF345

Re: Rate will go up

Which rate? Netflix? Man that 2 cents a month extra is going to suck. Rates should have been going up anyway so they can actually get content worth keeping my subscription going.

Actually if this agreement keeps customers from fleeing Netflix due to shitty streaming then it pays for itself.


YDC

join:2007-11-13
Hewlett, NY
reply to iansltx

Re: Netflix is cheating you too..

That is wrong. If it is a direct hand-off there should be no event there. That traffic is already paid for.


YDC

join:2007-11-13
Hewlett, NY
reply to Mr Guy

Re: Rate will go up

I agree. I cannot ever find new things on anything let alone Netflix. They all play old never watched stuff and throw in a few real movies to keep you thinking it is worth it.



trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Will AT&T be next in line?

Will AT&T be next in line?


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to AVonGauss

Re: One by one they go...

Name another internet content provider that pays any ISP for said ISP to deliver the data the ISP's customers have requested at a reasonable and timely fashion?



cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

Now if MS would ...

stop their proxy of video apps...

I can get spinning wheel on HBO GO, Netflix, etc going through Xbox.
But if I use Roku or AppleTV to watch Netflix, never a slow down.

Someone said that Microsoft runs through a proxy.
--
Splat


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to YDC

Re: Netflix is cheating you too..

So in all of your wisdom, when a content company that already pays for internet access (which Netflix is and does) gets popular enough that many people request their content then said content company should start paying ISPs to make sure those people get the data they requested?

I wonder if Download.com and all those "linux ISO" sites that have hundreds of gigabytes/terabytes downloaded every month are secretly paying said ISPs as well so the ISP consumers get the data they request?


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to trparky

Re: Will AT&T be next in line?

You know every big ISP is foaming at the mouth right now.


serge87

join:2009-11-29
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to Skippy25

Re: Netflix is cheating you too..

said by Skippy25:

So in all of your wisdom, when a content company that already pays for internet access (which Netflix is and does) gets popular enough that many people request their content then said content company should start paying ISPs to make sure those people get the data they requested?

You need to be more specific, especially when talking about peering vs transit.

Netflix connects to the rest of the internet in multiple ways, especially via third-party providers like Level 3, Cogent, Akamai, etc. Those third-parties peer with Verizon. In the deal that Netflix made with Comcast, they decided to peer directly, even if compensation to Comcast was required to offset the uneven traffic flow(this is an indisputable fact). They no longer pay a third-party like Cogent in transit fees but instead shift the money spent in transit fees to peering directly with an ISP(Comcast, Verizon, et al). There is no "new money" being spent, just being re-appropriated.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

1 recommendation

reply to NF345

Re: Rate will go up

Highly unlikely. It's probably cheaper to buy paid peering directly from Comcast than it is to buy transit from Cogent.


serge87

join:2009-11-29
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Skippy25

Re: Will AT&T be next in line?

said by Skippy25:

You know every big ISP is foaming at the mouth right now.

Why? Netflix is going to pay either a transit provider or the ISP they want to connect to directly. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here...


davidc502

join:2002-03-06
Mount Juliet, TN
Reviews:
·TDS

1 recommendation

reply to IPPlanMan

Re: One by one they go...

"What we have here is "double dipping".

Not really... Since the inception of the internet, companies pay ISP's so people can access thier content (for example). People pay ISP's to be able to reach content.

It makes sense to me that Netflix would streamline the process to get content to Comcast users by doing way with the middle-man (Cogent). Who knows, by striking a deal directly with Comcast, Netflix may pay less in the long run. Why? because they no longer have to pay cogent for the traffic from Netflix to Comcast.



davidc502

join:2002-03-06
Mount Juliet, TN
reply to AVonGauss

The problem was how Comcast and Verizon forced Netflix's hand by imposing data rate reductions to consumers from Netflix(cogen).

We will let Congress sort that part out.



YukonHawk

join:2001-01-07
Patterson, NY
Reviews:
·Comcast

In the end.....

The only thing that matters is we ALL have a lag and stutter free video stream coming to our HDTV's! (?) No matter how you slice it prices are going up and we get hit in the wallet. The ISPs and everyone else involved will make sure of that to ensure their piece of the pie doesn't get taken away from them.


plat2on1

join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY

1 recommendation

reply to Skippy25

Re: One by one they go...

said by Skippy25:

Name another internet content provider that pays any ISP for said ISP to deliver the data the ISP's customers have requested at a reasonable and timely fashion?

Valve/Steam have peered with Comcast directly for years and I would bet my life that they are paying for that privilege.


POW

@opera-mini.net

Bad for Consumers Long Term

Netflix caves in to the Tier1/ISP extortion demands to satisfy customers with poor video streaming quality. Some say who cares if the middleman Cogent is eliminated? Give it 6-12 months and see what happens to prices when Tier1/ISP wants more $$ from Netflix.

FCC is useless. A good case can be made that Tier 1 transit companies should not be allowed to own any consumer ISP assests, in addition to ISPs not being allowed to own content companies. A net neutrality law is necessary for consumer protection and competition. A few emergency use exceptions can be included in such a law.

We're lucky here. Two cable ISPs are available. We just signed up for another year with WOW 15/1 for $37/mo. with no caps. It was $40/mo. last year. TW advertises $35/mo., but we're happy with WOW and streaming works 99% of the time. I prefer to support the "little" guy.


clone

join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

1 recommendation

reply to IPPlanMan

Re: One by one they go...

If Comcast was the one charging the customer more for access to Netflix, then yes, your graphic would be correct. Based on your username, I assume you know what peering agreements are and how they work, so I'm not going to re-explain it.

But let's say you are a backbone provider, let's just say Cogent, but it could be any of them, and you had one of your customers that generated a huge amount of traffic. One of your other customers, let's say Comcast, but it could be any reseller/ISP, who received a huge amount of that traffic.

The peering point is becoming saturated with all the traffic that is being requested by Comcast's customers. They are not sending as much traffic as they are receiving, so the ratio is way off balance. Comcast is not interested in paying more money to that provider than they already are, and Netflix traffic suffers. The people being hurt here are Comcast's customers who are also Netflix customers. No one else, really.

There are many ways to play this.

1. Comcast will pay more money to Cogent to upgrade the saturated link, because they are receiving more traffic from them than they are sending. This is probably what *should* happen, but would result in the exact scenario you purport above, you want Netflix, you pay more for the service. We have avoided that scenario today.

2. Comcast does nothing, and the Cogent traffic degrades.

3. Netflix pays Cogent to upgrade the saturated link.

4. Netflix finds another backbone provider to haul the traffic to Comcast, possibly with better terms than that of Cogent.

5. Netflix effectively becomes their own backbone provider by moving the content right to Comcast's border, thereby being able to provide their customers with service and save money by paying it to Comcast for colocation rather than Cogent for transport.

Option 5 was chosen. It's a win for consumers, they won't pay more money, as the money Netflix was using to pay Cogent can now be used to pay Comcast, with little congestion. Consumers won't pay Comcast any additional money, as they're now *making* money where they probably would have had an additional cost.

The only real loser is Cogent, as they don't get to make more money to transport Netflix's data to Comcast, like they wanted. But at the same time, their costs should now go down as well. So they probably break even either way.

How, exactly, is this "double dipping"? Comcast is charging Netflix to colocate equipment in their facilities or transport data directly to serve their mutual customers. Without knowing the terms of the deal, there's no way to say who's getting screwed. Comcast might be charging less than their actual cost to colocate/transport. We don't know. Netflix might be paying more than they were paying Cogent, thereby they are taking a loss. We don't know. I'd say, probably, they're paying less than they were to Cogent, and Comcast is still making a few extra bucks off Netflix. But again, that's just speculation.

But how, exactly, this is creating an Internet where I, the consumer, am paying more to the ISP to access third-party services, I just don't see it.