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Comments on news posted 2014-05-06 18:21:00: Google has been very quiet about sign up totals for Google Fiber so far, so Bernstein Research recently conducted a door to door survey across five Kansas City neighborhoods (via Multichannel News). ..

pittpete1

join:2009-06-12

Landlines are dead right Verizon?

You could be running fiber in your non rural areas w/o offering TV, but everyone wants wireless right Lowell?
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

1 recommendation

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

Lowell and his predecessor spent billions running FTTH, and the take rate simply doesn't pencil out.

Google has been permitted to brazenly cherry-pick its territory and only deploy to pre-contracted neighborhoods in cities where the council has laid down for them.

Are you going to permit Verizon to do the same with the same privileges?
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Google Fiber

1 edit

3 recommendations

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

You often say this but in KC, all ISPs get the same privileges as Google and ATT/TWC are now laying a lot more fiber around KC. Google is working with cities to make it easier for all ISPs to deploy fiber, not just them. The incumbents are more interested in preventing competition through lobbying than working with local govts to improve efficiency for _all_. Since we've discussed this before, wouldn't you say you're intentionally spreading mis-information?

ATT cherry-picked in my area. Uverse is in my zipcode but not on my street. It's sporadically available around town.
ITGeeks

join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

Does KC take on all legal issues that araise due to any business issues of AT&T or TWC? I don't think so. Did AT&T/TWC get free use of space in city owned properties? Hardly. Did KC spend the money doing the engineering for AT&T when they started U-Verse upgrades? I don't think so. See the pattern here- Google got all that and then some.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

1 recommendation

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

I think it's more telling how badly at&t has bent KC over for years that they would JUMP at the opportunity Google offered them.

Maybe if at&t was so awesome and people were satisfied they wouldn't have been so eager, eh?

I think it's great the way Google Fiber is showing how red tape can be cut and barriers to competition can be removed or bypassed. Excellent, Excellent.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Google Fiber
said by ITGeeks:

Does KC take on all legal issues that araise due to any business issues of AT&T or TWC? I don't think so. Did AT&T/TWC get free use of space in city owned properties? Hardly. Did KC spend the money doing the engineering for AT&T when they started U-Verse upgrades? I don't think so. See the pattern here- Google got all that and then some.

Google gives free Gbit to a couple public services/libraries/school type places to each fiberhood and offers basically free 5/1. The mayor of KC, MO said maybe a year ago that if other ISPs offer the same, they would get the additional breaks. Not sure about KCK or suburban agreements.

The end result is that Google cut additional red tape and now other ISPs are laying a lot more fiber around KC. So they are taking advantage of what Google did.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

1 recommendation

said by ITGeeks:

Did KC spend the money doing the engineering for AT&T when they started U-Verse upgrades?

Did ATT ever promise free internet for 7 years or 1 Gig for 70 dollars?

Nope.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by DataRiker:

Did ATT ever promise free internet for 7 years or 1 Gig for 70 dollars?

Nope.

If they did, many here would call the practice anti-competitive - "selling" below cost to drive other ISPs out of business.

But since its Google, it must be ok.
mikesm559

join:2003-11-05
Fresno, CA

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

Didn't the Bernstein analyst say that Google Fiber would be profitable as these take rates? Doesn't sound like they are selling below cost.

How come you didn't address the responses to your assertion that Google is doing cherrypicking? Bernstein says they aren't, but FIOS and Uverse sure are. And they had their monopolies to underwrite their initial investment!
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

Yeah, other analysts expect high profit with just 30% take.
»slant.investorplace.com/2014/05/···g-stock/

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

2 recommendations

No, we'd call it lies, because we know at&t.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

1 edit

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by KrK:

No, we'd call it lies, because we know at&t.

Touché.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Your assumptions are stupid and pure speculation.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
Why do you say it's below cost? How much does it cost? I think the incremental costs per customer aren't very much.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

Why would I say its below cost?

Because the loyal opposition cites Verizon's cost at nearly $3K/household - its likely higher.

How does an ISP operate 5/1 for 7 years on zero revenue?

It is certainly selling below cost.

Many will claim this does not "hurt" the incumbents; it certainly does, but it won't put them out of business - that fate is reserved for the local ISPs and entrepreneurs who will be decimated or deterred.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Did ATT and TWC get millions to subsidize their networks? Why yes they did.

Stop making excuses for their lack of improvements, they are getting old.

fg8578

join:2009-04-26
Salem, OR

1 recommendation

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by Skippy25:

Did ATT and TWC get millions to subsidize their networks? Why yes they did.

What are the "millions" that TWC allegedly got to subsidize their networks?

The federal subsidy known as USF was not a subsidy to build out broadband networks. The USF subsidy was for POTS-only (or POTS + broadband). If a customer line is broadband-only (or BB + pay TV), the provider gets no subsidy for it. That changed in 2011, but until then, USF was not intended for broadband.

In any event, USF goes to telcos, not cable companies.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

They receive tax incentives and monopolistic/duopolistic market prices which are much higher then they would be if the government did their job to bring competition.

fg8578

join:2009-04-26
Salem, OR

1 recommendation

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by Skippy25:

They receive tax incentives . . .

You keep saying that, can you give me an example, specifically for cable companies?
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

No I can't. But just like every other information company they enjoy accelerated depreciation on equipment (even equipment they can't account for as in AT&Ts case). Which is one general tax benefit to them.

Even if we remove my tax statement because I can't give you a specific tax incentive given to a specific company in a specific state and/or municipality a year or 20 years ago, their monopolistic/duopolistic market prices are still plenty to support my statement.

fg8578

join:2009-04-26
Salem, OR

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by Skippy25:

Even if we remove my tax statement because I can't give you a specific tax incentive given to a specific company in a specific state and/or municipality a year or 20 years ago, their monopolistic/duopolistic market prices are still plenty to support my statement.

We agree on that.
mikesm559

join:2003-11-05
Fresno, CA
Did you read the Kirjner piece? It says that Google is not cherrypicking, but building heavily into the poor neighborhoods, and getting decent take rate even there!

What's your definition of Cherrypicking? Building Kansas City, KS (one of the poorest cities in the state), and not building Overland Park (the wealthiest city in KS)?

Maybe if they got a monopoly franchise like AT&T and the Cable guys got to build their networks, they would also build in the 10% of the area that didn't qualify yet.

And do you really think FIOS or U-verse is available to 100% of any city they rolled out in?

Give me a break...
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Google Fiber

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

Yeah, City of KC, KS is lowest income city of KC metro and Google chose that city first. Then they selected Central KC, MO and the E side of that area is among lowest income of metro area (though W side is avg to high income). They didn't pursue most avg/high income burbs until later.

A 27% uptake of lowest income fiberhoods is pretty good if the case.

Jim Kirk
Premium
join:2005-12-09
Westerville, OH

5 recommendations

It's elray. Facts don't matter.
Expand your moderator at work

catchingup

@135.23.225.x

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by Jim Kirk:

It's elray. Facts don't matter.

Facts are those pesky things that get in the way of his delusions.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
It's always these way when reality comes up against ideology. Since ideology is infallible, reality must be distorted to conform to ideology, otherwise someone would have to admit they were wrong.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

spewak
R.I.P Dadkins
Premium
join:2001-08-07
Elk Grove, CA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·SureWest Internet

Re: Landlines are dead right Verizon?

said by KrK:

It's always these way when reality comes up against ideology. Since ideology is infallible, reality must be distorted to conform to ideology, otherwise someone would have to admit they were wrong.

Are we talking about Fox News?
Expand your moderator at work
BosstonesOwn

join:2002-12-15
Wakefield, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

Ivan seidenberg... spent billions running fiber, he seen the future and knew that it needed to be done to stay ahead of the curve, very intelligent man. He worked his way up, he was not a paper CEO... Which McAdam is.

The uptake is there, the investors just want their ROI now, and this will be the death null of wired services, I hope they can sell the fiber and copper and have a company take it up while these guys go to wireless.

Cherry picking is not going where they are allowed to do their business, it's called intelligent business. Take the low hanging fruit then build from there. They chose to stop building at what would have been the perfect time due to investors.

Had they taken the bad economy ins tride and contracted workers at 1/3rd the normal cost, they would have kept people busy and the economy rolling and they would have quite simply built at a 3rd of the cost... But that's not what McAdams wanted and Ivan was clearly told that before he left.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
"Doesn't pencil out"? The take rate has been profitable for Verizon. They keep jacking up rates and still stealing new customers from cable. What else are you expecting?

••••
Chubbysumo

join:2009-12-01
Superior, WI
Reviews:
·Charter
said by elray:

Lowell and his predecessor spent billions running FTTH, and the take rate simply doesn't pencil out.

Google has been permitted to brazenly cherry-pick its territory and only deploy to pre-contracted neighborhoods in cities where the council has laid down for them.

Are you going to permit Verizon to do the same with the same privileges?

Verizon, AT&T, and every other provider already cherry pick what they want and don't want. Just ask those that want Uverse, or those that want FiOS but cannot get it because VZ refuses to honor their past agreements and bails on the area.
shrraga

join:2012-07-22
At&t/ verizon's "fiber" have DSL speeds, that's why there were not significant takers. Cable's $30 30 mbps beats fiber at 13 mbps for $50. $300 for 7+ years of 7 mbps is the best deal ever for light users, and $70 for gigabit blows everything else out of the water (besides VTel's $45 gigabit...). I pay $60 for Fairpoint's 10/.9 DSL.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

surveys, good idea

How about Google begins surveys on whether customers would want MORE bandwidth than 1 gigabit symmetric. I suspect there might be some interest in ramping up to 10 gigabits so that 1 gigabit can finally drop in price making it more accessible to the lower income groups. Once in deployment, it would once again make your incumbent ISP look like they're doing this to you..

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfXiIXTpE0
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2

Re: surveys, good idea

There are reports of Google looking to deploy 10G but that may be at the fiberhood level, not per end user - but maybe so.
Bob61571

join:2008-08-08
Washington, IL

1 edit

I have friend in northern KC, MO who has signed up with Google Fiber

for the "free" 5 Mbps offering for her PC and tablet. She is in the Chapel Woods neighborhood. She will continue to use OTA TV.

Will report back, after I have any updates from her.
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Google Fiber

Re: I have friend in north KC, MO who has signed up with Google Fiber

North KC won't get it for a while. I have some friends/family with 5M and it does work very well. The best thing is that the latency is same as Gbit, below 5ms locally, only about 10-15ms KC to Chicago.

Is fast enough for Netflix 720p and browsing at same time.

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: I have friend in northern KC, MO who has signed up with Google Fiber

Can she/you hook me up with some the the Google Fiber SWAG? That rabbit is sweet!
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Google Fiber

It's just a sample but still high uptake

One high income fiberhood had 83% subscription rate. A low income hood had 27%, which is still higher than I'd expect. Apparently avg is about 75% but they were polling just a few fiberhoods that had high demand for service. Would be surprising if Google gets 50% market share after a few years, but still interesting to see who has the interest. Most are going for Gbit only according to survey. I was expecting free 5M to have most but maybe they didn't poll apt/condo buildings that automatically get it for free.

About 400 apts/condo buildings have agreement with Google so far. Every unit automatically gets free 5/1 with option to upgrade. If 50 units/avg/building, that's potentially 20K subs already, not including single family homes. And they haven't started agreements in North/South KC, MO yet.

»fiber.google.com/propertymanager···rtments/

••••••••••

CosmicDebri
Still looking for intelligent life

join:2001-09-01
Port Saint Lucie, FL

free not being free really

I would think the reason the lower income neighborhoods take rate being smaller is the $300 they have to cough up to start the 'free' service. I don't know for sure, but even if you live in an apartment or condo that 'let's' google do installs, you probably still have to pony up the $300.
--
Follow Your Bliss -- Joseph Cambell
I reject your Reality and substitute my own! -- Adam Savage, Mythbuster

••••••••

tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast

TWC aside I don't believe most doubt...

...people will choose this over a similarly priced lower speed from the incumbent.
but would it win against half the price for 1/4 the speed?
ie we don't doubt Google can offer this at that price, but can Google make the business case that it is affordable and profitable to build out at these price points?
even with a 50% take rate, assuming it remains that high could a for profit ISP afford to do this? without the personal data harvest fest Google is enjoying?

••••••
davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:3

Google Fiber Future Deployment

"ISP execs comfort themselves with the fact that Google Fiber won't be coming to most of their territories anytime soon. While Google recently announced they were considering delivering Google Fiber to 34 new cities in nine regions, only one or two of those cities are likely to see service anytime soon."

I think Google could do one city in each region, so 9 cities. Google has a wild streak.
ITGeeks

join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

Re: Google Fiber Future Deployment

How can they do the 9 cities? Austin isn't even started yet and it was announced well before Provo's deal. It's years before any of these 9 cities are going to get anything- if they even see anything at all.
davidhoffman
Premium
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA
kudos:3

Re: Google Fiber Future Deployment

Millions of people out of work nationwide. Numerous infrastructure projects needing to be done almost simultaneously. Sound familiar? Of course it does. We, the USA, have done this before. The Rural Electrification Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corp, the Works Progress Administration, and an arsenal of democracy. So, take a technically savvy corporation, add in less government bureaucracy, cooperative government and private employment agencies, and a significant market demand. Thus Google Fiber, with the cooperation of public and private agencies, can get a trained workforce in each area. They can then deploy near simultaneous forces to deploy FTTH in all 9 cities. They might be able to do all 34 cities within 12 years.

buzz_4_20

join:2003-09-20
Limestone, ME

Lemmie see...

50/5 for $64.99 (promotional) + modem rental..
OR
1000/1000 for $70

Going to have to say the gigabit wins all around.
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2

Re: Lemmie see...

And this is just one spoke in the wheel. Two other spokes Google has started are piloting small business class service on the cheap and public free WiFi around KC with Gbit backhaul.

Probitas

@206.248.154.x

If you build it...

they will come? Could be a movie in the making...
tabernak

join:2013-08-10
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service

Interesting pricing points

I see the options are either symmetrical gigabit for $70 or 5/1 for a 1x charge of $300 guaranteed for 7 years. So people that want/need internet fast enough for multiple video streams, HD video, fast downloads, cloud services, VPN, file sharing, simultaneous users, etc are forced to pick the gigabit plan.

I bet if they offered 100/100 for $35, more than 50% of their gigabit customers would have chosen that instead. Even though they'd technically be paying 5x more per megabit, the reality is the demand for gigabit mostly isn't there. Google is just smart enough to build their infrastructure to be ahead of the need and not bother offering all the various tiers, which decimates the incumbents.
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Google Fiber

Re: Interesting pricing points

Yeah, it would be nice if Google offered a middle tier like 100/100 but then they likely wouldn't build up much of a Gbit install base, which they said early on they want to create.

I figured they'd only offer a middle tier at later time if Gbit didn't do well but if survey is right, Gbit is far outpacing 5M subscriptions.
Acarney

join:2003-01-27
Richland, WA

Better research?

Is this high demand for the service, or very good research and deployment on Google's part? Maybe Verizon/AT&T would have been able to see a higher sign on rate if they had targeted a heck of a lot better/slower (they moved slow enough already, but Google of course can do no wrong).

Honestly I think if Verizon/AT&T or anyone else could target well and research ahead of time they would see fantastic uptake of 100/50 for maybe $50 or $60 and 1000/100 for $100/mo. Their problem was they were pricing too high for initial uptake and honestly probably were doing the research Google was and instead just looking at demographics.
rahvin112

join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT

Re: Better research?

Verizon/ATT aren't interested in upgrading or offering higher tier service because it would cost money to deploy. See, they already have the customers because they are a monopoly, and they are already collecting the rent on whatever piss poor product they can offer so their is no reason to upgrade.

For an incumbent to be interested in upgrading would require real competition, not the pretend competition created in a duopoly.
ITGeeks

join:2014-04-20
Cleveland, OH

Numbers

So with Brensein doing the research door to door, how many doors did they knock on? Would be a great way to find out how many customers Google actually has.
pittpete1

join:2009-06-12
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

Stop with the BS

Verizon could easily run fiber in its own territory.
They tiewrap the fiber to the copper like they do everywhere else.
Offer internet/VOIP, forget about the franchise town agreements for video.
McWireless is a moron letting cable have all these broadband subs.
Instead of doubling down on wireless and fiberbased broadband he's concentrating on an oversaturated market.
Of course Verizon makes more profit on wireless, they're countrywide while FIOS is in parts of a handfull of states. He cries theres no profit in wireline....Thats because you've chased all your customers away....No investment in copper in ages where i work in NY. They got rid of half if not more of their workforce without hiring anyone. Have fiber hanging on poles but refuses to finish to concentrate on wireless. Competition on wireless is heating up Lowell and customers are getting wiser.
The phone company is always one step behind the competition.
Just like when cable was wiring away in the late 90's and Bell Atlantic twiddled it's thumbs trying to squeeze every last dime out of the subscriber base.
NYC is looking to add free wifi Lowell. How you going to milk your current subscribers with data caps and usage fees? The greedy bast@rd could create the biggest best and fastest based fiber/wireless network in the state of NY. Offer customers packages on fiber and wireless and give consumers no reason to go anywhere else. Consolidate and watch them flock back....Keep nickle and diming though so you can chase more fedup people away.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

1 recommendation

No, no, no. The naysayers tell us that uptake has been terrible....

.... don't start contradicting ideology that super fast internet access is actually economical, practical, and profitable.

We wouldn't want to have competition break out in the market!
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

1 recommendation

There is no demand....

This isn't the superfast internet access you've been looking for.

Move along.

(Loses 50% market share). No. Demand.

••••