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Comments on news posted 2014-05-07 12:38:46: Meaningful expansion of Verizon's FiOS services has been on hold for years now -- outside of existing franchise obligations like New York City, and even those appear to be seeing nowhere near the kind of penetration Verizon hinted at. ..


buzz_4_20
join:2003-09-20
Dover, NH

2 recommendations

buzz_4_20

Member

You'd Think

They would want more customers.

I guess the high profit margins of Wireless are deafening.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

4 recommendations

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: You'd Think

They spend more than 120 billion to buy out Vodaphone, but cant find a way to complete the FiOS build for another 20-30 billion? That's just embarrassing.

fg8578
join:2009-04-26
San Antonio, TX

fg8578

Member

Re: You'd Think

said by ITALIAN926:

They spend more than 120 billion to buy out Vodaphone

Actually it was $59B in cash, $60B in stock, and $5B in notes:

Verizon closes $130B deal to buy out Vodafone’s stake in Verizon Wireless today

Still a lot of money, but it's not like the $130B was all cash.
JackBauer
join:2006-08-24
Schenectady, NY

1 recommendation

JackBauer to ITALIAN926

Member

to ITALIAN926
What's stunningly ridiculous is that as seen in the other story, T-Mobile is starting to have an impact on their LTE growth. Plus the fact VZ has to be making tons of money from new fees (modem, ridiculous cost on the VMS, etc.).

Just for the medium term alone (let's say 3-5 years), this is HIGHLY risky. Especially when you hear about growing public wifi services. Or IP / Voip chat apps. These are technologies that could very well seriously disrupt a great portion of their revenue stream.

Oh I have VZ available to me, and considered buying VZ stock over the last year, but didn't because I feel that this CEO and board are way to focused on this quarter and not 2 years from now.
cotm
join:2005-08-18
Winchester, VA

1 recommendation

cotm to ITALIAN926

Member

to ITALIAN926
You are so right . it's an embarrassment to see how they have abandoned a technology that was and is still GROUND breaking.
The current CEO needs to invest in the landline division as they built the wireless side . Despite his belief Cellular can NEVER offer the same services . On another note tho the townships don't have to beat the heck out them every time the negotiate for a video franchise either.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

4 recommendations

BiggA to buzz_4_20

Premium Member

to buzz_4_20
Exactly. The people running Verizon are total idiots. They should be planning to cover 100% of their current copper territory, and eyeing lucrative markets to overbuild other providers will an all-fiber plant. They should also continue the MPEG-4 conversion and improve their channel line-up as a result, in addition to making the 150+mbps packages for more reasonable to compete with Comcast. Heck, they should offer a gig package, they have the capability to do that with GPON.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

elray to buzz_4_20

Member

to buzz_4_20
said by buzz_4_20:

They would want more customers.

More customers does not a profit make, unless the take rate is sufficient, which it isn't already, and certainly won't be in those marginal regions.

Most of those potential customers (and I count myself among them) aren't interested in paying even basic Fios rates of $60-65/month.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: You'd Think

So, youre saying FiOS isnt making a profit..... WRONG.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

1 recommendation

elray

Member

Re: You'd Think

That's correct. Fios is not profitable.

If it was, Verizon would actively seek to expand it.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: You'd Think

Oooooooooooooh, so to clarify, you believe they are LOSING MONEY, or are the exactly a wash? . Please be specific and give a citation as to your theory.

neisttt
@206.71.228.x

neisttt

Anon

Re: You'd Think

fios makes little
money to justify wide expansion. if it was taking in tons of cash then they would aggressively expand simple as that.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

It's a long term play. Copper phone lines barely have relevance today, and years down the road will have zero relevance. It's either upgrade or die. AT&T is just prolonging the pain with U-Verse, as it can't keep up even with what cable is doing, but it buys them time. Any wireline provider that wants to be around in 20 or 30 years has to have coax or FTTH.

clickclak
@108.27.63.x

clickclak to ITALIAN926

Anon

to ITALIAN926
read the breakdown of quarterly reports. fios is breaking even.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: You'd Think

I always do, and their WIRELINE, which includes copper, doesnt post a big bold ZERO every quarter, so what you say is technically false. Wireline has been on the positive side of the zero, which means its MAKING MONEY, and if they would scuttle copper and replace all with fiber, they would make boatloads in the long run.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

If they were allowed to. They should be, on a per-house basis, 1:1. Maybe they'd just convert every customer on their system to FIOS!
BiggA

BiggA to elray

Premium Member

to elray
Their bundles are competitive with cable's bundles. FIOS does't make sense if you're using DirecTV for your TV, but in that case, the real question if why you aren't using FIOS...
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

elray

Member

Re: You'd Think

I don't use Fios, because I don't want to pay the typical rate offered of $60-65/month. The bundles rate IS competitive, but we "cord-cut" long years ago; there is very little [current] interest in pay-tv in our household.

I was tempted by the one-weekend popup offer of $29.99 for 15/5, but sadly, didn't pull the trigger, and it vanished like Cinderella's coach.

The "$50" 50M+HBO offer is attractive on face, but it totals out closer to $75/month, and involves "doing business with" Verizon; I thought about it for several days, and concluded it wasn't worth the extra $720/year over cable modem service, or the extra-large bottle of Tums.

All of this assumes that VZ would actually activate Fios for us. In times past, when we did consider it, before TWC really stepped up their game, they were inept and incompetent, incapable of finding our address, qualifying or activating it.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

15/5 is a joke. That's like DSL with a faster upload. I've got 105/10 on cable (most Comcast areas are 105/20). Without TV, you are better off on cable for internet...

You're not a typical user then. Most users have TV, so the bundle prices are the most relevant, and Verizon is very competitive there. I didn't compare HBO, but without HBO, for the mid-level TV package and faster internet, Verizon is $140/mo, Comcast is $150/mo. Not too familiar with TWC, but I'd imagine they are similar to Comcast (not that it matters anyways, since they probably will be Comcast soon enough).

What's so bad about Verizon? TWC is the devil. They incorrectly copy flag everything except locals and they have TA's, both of which completely screw over TiVo users. Verizon does neither. Although neither would matter for you, since you don't have TV service.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

2 edits

elray

Member

Re: You'd Think

It may be a "joke" to you, but I assure you, we're quite happy with 2/1 for $15/month.

True, we're not typical. "Cord cut" is a tiny fraction of the populous, and among those, most buy more bandwidth. I'm glad TWC is wise (or marketing savvy?) enough to offer us a service that works for our niche. I've been extremely pleased with them for five years, as is everyone I've cut from AT&T over that time period. If I was a pay-tv subscriber, or a typical consumer who doesn't scrutinize his bills and negotiate at least annually, I might not be as positive about it.

What's bad with Verizon?
The service is top-notch.
The billing and customer service is worse than a root-canal.

Presumably, repair would not be a common occurrence with Fios; copper issues in the past were not anywhere near as problematic as with AT&T, but still involved mind-numbing navigation of incompetent bureaucracy and was measured in weeks, not days or hours.

Verizon Online Support - I don't know how it ranks today; in the past, it was a matter of what time of day you would call in, that determined what country you reached, and only Mexico City seemed competent.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

2/1 isn't even broadband. 15/5 is a joke. Most households in the US can get 50+mbps. Comcast is upgrading their whole system to 105mbps for Blast! in stages. All the major cable providers plus Verizon and a few muni networks offer speeds of 50 or more mbps.

The customer service isn't really a consideration when you can get full-bandwidth HD and 80/40 fiber internet for a reasonable price, especially if your alternative is the worst large cable company in the US.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

1 recommendation

elray

Member

Re: You'd Think

Customer service is always a consideration, if the company's service and billing issues mean you have to interact with them.

2/1 is broadband. 15/5 is no joke. Those higher bitrates you reference are wonderful - but completely irrelevant - "full bandwidth HD" means nothing until desired content is commonly sold over that path.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

I don't care. I'm going to choose the technically superior product, irregardless of the customer service or lack thereof. I could have a local cable overbuilder with local support, or Comcast, I have Comcast because they have slightly better offerings for cable and internet, not because they have good support. They don't.

2/1 is NOT broadband. The FCC definition is something like 4/1, maybe it's 4/768, but it's somewhere around there. 15/5 is a joke in today's world where 50-100mbps is the norm in terms of packages offered. Several of my friends have or have had the 15/5 plan on FIOS, and I just laughed because even at the time, I had 50/10 on Comcast, now I have 105/10.

WHAT? I'm talking about transmitting MPEG-2 HD streams at or near 19mbps, or the equivalent for MPEG-4. FIOS does MPEG-2 this way, resulting in picture quality that is representative of what all HD should be.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

1 recommendation

elray

Member

Re: You'd Think

That's your choice. I'm going to choose the product that fits my budget, or do without.

The FCC definition was changed for political purposes.
2/1 is broadband, "whether you like it or not."

While higher bandwidth would allow for your theoretical MPEG-2 streams to be transmitted without compression or lossiness, that's irrelevant until we actually have desired mainstream pay-tv content being sold specifically via Internet delivery. "Finding something to watch on Netflix" in 4K doesn't cut it.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

No it's not. You'd have a valid argument if you wanted to argue that the definition should be higher, like 10/1 or 10/4 or something, but lower just isn't valid. In today's world, you are left behind if you don't have a fast connection.

WHAT are you talking about? I'm clearly talking about TV service and delivering the full bandwidth feed, not internet. FIOS is ALREADY DOING THIS with many 19mbps MPEG-2 feeds via 256QAM. If you're delivering via the internet, you're obviously not going to deliver MPEG-2, it's going to be MPEG-4 AVC or better. Netflix 4K has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the delivery of 1080i or 720p MPEG-2 HD via cable.

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4 to elray

Member

to elray
how could you live with 2/1? It's like dialup speeds. Might as well be using aol dialup service.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

1 recommendation

elray

Member

Re: You'd Think

Dialup is typically 26.4kbps on our high-quality copper facilities here. Even if we were attaining a mythical 50kbps, our cable modem service at 2000kbps - is still 40X faster.

No, it is "not like aol dialup".

We live with it just fine.

If our perspective on life was as skewed as some people's math, we might be troubled by it.

Please don't run for office.

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4

Member

Re: You'd Think

How can you live with 2 down ? I have 105 down and cant imagine 2 down. Then again there are areas where that is the fastest speed they can get.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: You'd Think

For people who dont stream video, 2 down with good latency could be OK, whats the mystery here?
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

No, it's not. Even web pages would load slow on that. Then look at downloads, software updates, etc, and you can see why 2/1 is so problematic.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

elray to ITALIAN926

Member

to ITALIAN926
Actually, Netflix streams just fine.

If you recall, in their name-and-shame campaign, even the venerable FIOS is only averaging 2Mbps bandwidth.

»ispspeedindex.netflix.com/usa
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: You'd Think

Those are averages and include SD streams. You need more than 2mbps for HD streaming.
BiggA

BiggA to elray

Premium Member

to elray
True, 2/1 is a bad connection, but it is temporarily usable unlike dial-up, which is totally unusable. It's certainly not fit for a home connection, however. When I get kicked back to AT&T's 1.5mbps wifi (T1 backhaul), I usually notice how bad it is even on my little iPhone and quickly switch Wifi off so that I at least have 5mbps. When I switch to an LTE phone full time, even my PHONE will have 25+mbps basically all the time. Not to mention my computer, which always has about 100mbps at home.

mikesterr
join:2008-04-18
Sanford, FL

mikesterr

Member

No ROI

It really is too expensive to deploy. Ivan gave up short term gains for long term, but Lowell really is about the short term profitability. With the cost of Acquisition and the Churn in the fios segment its just not cost effective to continue to deploy. No one is more upset then me about that, as I live 1 street away from Fios and know I will never get it. I am guessing though we are closer to seeing a Video over LTE type TV deployment in the near future so Fiber Optic cables really are not going to be needed anyway I suppose.

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jchambers28
Premium Member
join:2007-05-12
Peculiar, MO

1 recommendation

jchambers28

Premium Member

Google fiber

Going to be interesting to see what Google fiber does.

»www.cnet.com/news/google ··· petitor/

•••

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

1 recommendation

Packeteers

Premium Member

Verizon's in the Excuse Business

my Coop has been filing right of way and building distribution requests with FiOS for 3 years, and only now this past March did they finally dug up the street and lay down their feeder cables. this in an area where all the houses one city block away have had FioS for years, and aDSL prices were already jacked up far too high for anyone here to use copper. these sleazebags will say anything to slime out of an agreement.
shmerl
join:2013-10-21

shmerl

Member

Re: Verizon's in the Excuse Business

What about de Blasio? Is he still pressuring Veirzon to fulfill their side of the deal? He was vocal about it before he was elected, but I didn't hear anything since then.

Packeteers
Premium Member
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
Asus RT-AC3100
(Software) Asuswrt-Merlin

1 recommendation

Packeteers

Premium Member

Re: Verizon's in the Excuse Business

now that deBlasio's mayor, he's learned he can't do shit about Verizon except badmouth them in the press. fighting Verizon's army of lawyers is simply not worth it - better to collect a few token breach of contract fines to save political face and move on. haven't you learned anything from the Financial Crisis of 2007/8 - nobody is ever held accountable, laws favoring business don't get changed, they just pay a token fine and go back to screwing as usual.

Zenit_IIfx
The system is the solution
Premium Member
join:2012-05-07
Purcellville, VA
·Comcast XFINITY

6 recommendations

Zenit_IIfx

Premium Member

Oh the money!

VZ is terrible. They will in the end be the only ILEC that decides to not upgrade a single thing and let 30-60% of their network rot on the poles (decades old Copper not maintained, with DLSAMs from the 1990s).

The end game here is to drive everyone into the arms of Cable (gentleman's agreement with Comcast whom servs most of VZs landline footprint) and drive the rural customers onto the overpriced 4G LTE services.

I read reports that shortly after VZ sold off their POTS networks in New England to Fairpoint, DSL speeds suddenly got higher - just a little bit of investment can squeeze a bit more life out of the copper, if it was not wrecked due to ingress of water.
(Yes I know that newer cable has Goop, but if the splices get exposed...)

Frontier is in rougher shape, as they got VZs really abandoned areas (W. VA for example - both ex-GTE and ex-Bell were in rough shape).

VZ signed contracts with state PUCs that will never be fulfilled, took advantage of grant money and raised our phone rates promising a modern network that will NEVER happen. AT&T and CenturyLink have done similar, but not to the extent of VZ.

This whole mess with obtaining a modern telecom network for the next century is why I am convinced that the 1984 breakup of Ma Bell actually spawned a monster. The old System was technology focused - releasing groundbreaking technology and upgrading the network on a regular basis. The principle of Universal Service was followed.

And we broke it up, rather than re-regulating it for the future - for what? Long Distance competition?

Could have forced that on the system and kept it intact.

Today?
VZ CFO: Oh the money! So wonderful. I love 4g. Wire bad. 4g good. ohhhhhh -rolls around in piles of money-
VZ Engineering: Sir, our networks are failing - customers are defecting and we have no budget to do anything.
VZ CFO: Just duct tape/trash bag it. Remember, Bag on Strand policy.
VZ Engineering: This wont last.
VZ CFO: Who cares, its cheap. Wires are not LTE. LTE is great. I love LTE. OOOOH LTE. -rubs face with Samsung Galaxy S5, then snorts ground up $100 bills-

-the next day-
VZ CEO: I HATE CLUTTER. CLUTTER IS WRONG. THROW OUT ALL SPARE PARTS AND UNUSED MATERIALS.

VZ Engineering: But we need that to take care of the network. We hoard equipment as you wont let us buy any!
VZ CEO: THROW IT AWAY! NOW! I LIKE CLEAN CENTRAL OFFICES!!! THEY PROPAGATE LTE BETTER.
VZ Engineering: That isn't true.
CEO: Throw out that old junk or I fire you all and replace you with subcontractors from Zimbabwe.

(This actually happened - VZ was caught throwing out dumpsters full of new equipment - splice cases, pedestals, fiber, copper, ONTs, line cards....insane! The Zimbabwe part did not though. )



Only in Murika, right guys?

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biochemistry
Premium Member
join:2003-05-09
92361

biochemistry

Premium Member

No worries

The other 30% will eventually get muni fiber and be out of Verizon's hands forever.

cypherstream
MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
·PenTeleData
ARRIS SB8200

1 recommendation

cypherstream

MVM

Than stop showing Fios commercials if I will never get Fios

I'm so sick of all the Fios commercials when we can't even get Fios. They need to either sell the service in the entire DMA they are advertising in, or pack up and stop trying to shove a fictitious product to us.

Maybe multicast IPTV over LTE is the new solution to Verizon selling triple and quad play services in the other 30%?

••••••
bcltoys
join:2008-07-21

bcltoys

Member

Frozen.

The copper pipes they use for phone service broke over the winter.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer

Premium Member

So then, what's an acceptable rate?

Was Verizon planning on putting the cable companies out of business? What kind of uptake numbers were they projecting before the roll out?

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horseshoe
Premium Member
join:2006-10-11
Upland, CA

horseshoe

Premium Member

The great FiOS

This product is so great, so advanced, so worthy of still currently promoting in electronic and print mediums, so tantalizing that America is drooling over it, but Verizon's facade of this technology is that it was a pipe dream to begin with, and now their team runs backward in retreat. The team Verizon may very well still be talking and talking about it well into 2050 because of its advanced technology that few have access to. (I spent too much time in their boardroom listening to the speech making strategists ready the next promo and backtracking explanation.)
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

2 edits

tmc8080

Member

30%, try 50 to 60%

And of the remaining 25 - 30% that do CAN get fios... maybe they won't want it if the price and service offering suck... (read, not competitive enough). Verizon could choose to do a hell of a lot better, but choose otherwise.

BTW, it would be as high as 75% but they sold plenty of the never wanted in the first place geographies to spin off companies which eventually file bankruptcy. and when I mean never wanted in the first place.. I mean the bare copper facilities of Appalachia and select geographies in New England. This attitude remained rock solid even though some of these geographies eventually got wired for tier-1 internet backbones over the decades which have since past.

BTW, Verizon keeps pumping out business commercial internet (radio ads) that makes it appear that Verizon has 500mbps internet available from EVERY single node that a business customer might be nearby as their go-to node, when that couldn't be further from the truth.
pittpete1
join:2009-06-12

pittpete1

Member

Dig Schmig

Some of you people don't know what you're talking about...
Your like puppets.
Verizon piggybacks the existing copper like they have done all over.

xNPC
As Usual, Have Nice Day
Premium Member
join:2000-11-08
Errington, BC

xNPC

Premium Member

they want deregulation again.

that is their end game. deregulation and the union workforce out.
clayewhite
join:2014-01-22

clayewhite

Member

Re: they want deregulation again.

That where they screwed up with the wireless deal. they should have spun wireless into a new company and left old Verizon to die. Maybe carved out FIOS and the backhaul pieces, but leave all of the copper part of the company to go bankrupt along with their unionized workforce.

xNPC
As Usual, Have Nice Day
Premium Member
join:2000-11-08
Errington, BC
·Shaw
ARRIS TG3482

xNPC

Premium Member

Re: they want deregulation again.

where do you think the money to start bell atlantic mobile/vz wireless came from? the raped the landline side of the business and now they marginalize that side of the business and their employees all the while trying unsuccessfully to show they are hemorraging customers to favor deregulation. see we have "fake" competetion? how do we know? we are driving droves of them in a backroom deal to comcast. the union workforce is really the only thing holding that shoddy outside plant together.
FrontirCynic
join:2006-10-25
Long Beach, CA

FrontirCynic

Member

bring the price down

If you did not have to give up a kidney to pay for FIOS then maybe they could find more customers. Find out what the holdouts are on (go door to door and ask) then sell them the fios they want and need. not everyone needs quad play fios for 300 mo. Quit upselling everything vz. then when you have more users paying in you can rip out all the copper and be happy