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Comments on news posted 2014-06-05 18:12:37: After calling Netflix's new buffering warning that more specifically blames ISPs for poor streaming performance a "misleading PR stunt" yesterday, Verizon has taken their response up another level with a cease and desist letter to Netflix threatening.. ..

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Titus
Mr Gradenko
join:2004-06-26

Titus

Member

They'd better do something besides whine

because streaming after 8pm EST would appear to suck for more than a few people.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: They'd better do something besides whine

Looks like both Verizon and Netflix are doing something in addition to whining.
CJ777
join:2004-10-05
Los Angeles, CA

CJ777 to Titus

Member

to Titus
STFU VERIZON. I f*cking never hated any company more than them, next would be AT&T.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

1 edit

13 recommendations

IPPlanMan

Member

Go ahead and sue...

Go ahead Verizon. I'm sure we'll all be interested to see your peering point saturation.

ETA: Can you hear me now? Good.

TAZ
join:2014-01-03
Tucson, AZ

2 recommendations

TAZ

Member

Re: Go ahead and sue...

Oh yes. Stop talking, start doing. Just like I said yesterday.

Something tells me Verizon won't be doing anything...

WHT
join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX

1 recommendation

WHT to IPPlanMan

Member

to IPPlanMan
"Can you peer me now?"

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan

Member

Re: Go ahead and sue...

Hah... Good one!
KGB7
join:2003-12-17
Rockville, MD

KGB7

Member

.......

And here I am, a new VZ customer, happy as efin kite, thinking im with a great company and product......

Cant wait till google fiber rolls out.
mrdialup
join:2013-11-17

1 edit

mrdialup

Member

Re: .......

said by KGB7:

Cant wait till google fiber rolls out.

Google will abandon fiber someday just like they did Google TV, Google Voice, Motorola and a host of other products and services. They enter a market to make a statement, damage a competitor (or future perceived competitor)in some way or acquire intellectual property. Once the value is "wringed" out of it, whatever that might be, they almost always abandon it either to be acquired or to let it die from neglect.

Why is Google promoting fiber when even Verizon has stymied the growth of FIOS because they figured out there is no long term value in it? And stories like this just prove the point. Whether it's right or not, the future of internet service is commonly perceived to be wireless. And as everything is pushed to that mode, Verizon will have a much easier time making a profit by metering service over artificially constrained pathways.

The consumer is not going to win this battle.
michmoor
join:2012-10-05
Bronx, NY

michmoor

Member

Re: .......

Pretty good analysis. As a Google fan I admit that point.
There is absolutly no reason to believe that google will invest in the infrastructure long term. Its not in the company DNA to stick with anything long term. One could argue that Android was a fluke...
rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

rradina to mrdialup

Member

to mrdialup
I disagree. There's value in fiber -- just not the kind of value that creates great yields for investors. In a capitalist system, there's nothing wrong with that decision. However, saying fiber has no value is going too far.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

5 recommendations

karlmarx

Member

Waaaaahhh..

Cry me a river verizon. Guess what, it IS verizon's fault. Sure, the internal network of verizon may be able to handle it just fine, but your CUSTOMERS paid to get the information from A DIFFERENT network. The FACT is that Verizon IS NOT GETTING ENOUGH bandwidth from the peering points. The FACT IS that Verizon is KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY allowing the peer to get congested. The FACT IS that NETFLIX is paying for MORE THAN ENOUGH BANDWITH to provide Verizon with ALL their customers want, but verizon is too greedy to use THEIR MONEY to upgrade THEIR CONNECTION to the peer. Netflix pays for almost 50Tb of bandwidth to their peers. 50 Terrabits! That's enough to stream to 20 million people at once. Verzion needs to upgrade their connecting to the backbone, so they can ACCEPT the data netflix customers are requesting. It's NOT a netflix problem, it's a VERIZON problem

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

1 recommendation

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

said by karlmarx:

Netflix pays for almost 50Tb of bandwidth to their peers. 50 Terrabits!

Do you have a way to document that?
said by karlmarx:

That's enough to stream to 20 million people at once.

That is impressive, but Netflix has 48 million streaming customer accounts globally, with 36 to-40 million being in the US, some accounts allow multiple streams, and you can be sure that a high percentage are in use during the 5 pmEDT to midnight when the majority of these problems occur.
So perhaps 50 TB/20 million streams is no where near enough.

PlusOne
@50.182.54.x

2 recommendations

PlusOne to karlmarx

Anon

to karlmarx
said by karlmarx:

The FACT is that Verizon IS NOT GETTING ENOUGH bandwidth from the peering points.

The FACT IS that Verizon is KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY allowing the peer to get congested.

Verzion needs to upgrade their connecting to the backbone, so they can ACCEPT the data netflix customers are requesting. It's NOT a netflix problem, it's a VERIZON problem

Any proof, at all, for those so-called FACTS??? Other than CLAIMS by Netflix?
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

2 recommendations

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

It's 100% Verizon's fault. Netflix has offered OpenConnect appliances for free to any ISP that wants them, and Verizon doesn't have them. If Verizon used the OpenConnect appliances, then they would control their own destiny from end to end for Netflix content. However, they want to use traditional Mafia extortion tactics to try and extort more money out of Netflix for peering points, so they let them saturate. What is so weird is that this is happening even AFTER they supposedly made a deal.

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL

Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

said by BiggA:

It's 100% Verizon's fault. Netflix has offered OpenConnect appliances for free to any ISP that wants them, and Verizon doesn't have them. If Verizon used the OpenConnect appliances, then they would control their own destiny from end to end for Netflix content. However, they want to use traditional Mafia extortion tactics to try and extort more money out of Netflix for peering points, so they let them saturate. What is so weird is that this is happening even AFTER they supposedly made a deal.

I assume that OpenConnect is the offer to colocate a Server on the ISP's Network so that the end-to-end customer connection is 100% on the on the network and there is no part that flows over the Internet and thus no peering needed at the edge of the ISP network. It would just be the same as one ISP customer running a server and another connecting to it.

The only Netflix traffic over the Internet (and through the peering point) would thus be the FTP session to update the Netflix Server with new content.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

They locate a server on the ISP's network. I'd assume, however, that it doesn't have the entire Netflix library, but rather a good chunk of it that represents a bulk of the traffic, and then the specialty content would still be streamed directly from Netflix, but I'm not really sure. They have published documentation on it online. With OpenConnect, it's then 100% in the ISPs hands to control the streaming experience end to end, at least for the content that is on the OpenConnect system.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

1 recommendation

r81984 to PlusOne

Premium Member

to PlusOne
Netflix continually knows the transfer speed in and out of verizon's network as verizon customers use netflix. They have the real data to make their statements without lying.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

1 recommendation

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

said by r81984:

They have the real data to make their statements without lying.

Without a doubt.
the question is Will they show us the data? or just continue to imply/direct say "it's ISP XXX, not us"
I can draw you a pretty graph that supports whatever I want, I can't back it up with anything.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop to r81984

Member

to r81984
How did Netflix get data that tells them what package the end user chose? How do they know when the buffering is due to network congestion vs the customer is cheap and they subscribed to 3mb service over FIOS?
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

They could look and see if a given user is always slow, or if they are slow at 9pm on a Friday, and fast at some weird off time.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

battleop

Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

So tell us how they can tell if the user is slow because of Verizon's Network or if they are slow because the subscriber's kid is hammering away at Bittorrent.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

said by battleop:

So tell us how they can tell if the user is slow because of Verizon's Network or if they are slow because the subscriber's kid is hammering away at Bittorrent.

Have you bothered to think for a minute or are you just a shill for Verizon?

They can tell based on large sets of aggregate data for an ISP, by looking at the number of streams that are adjusted downwards at different points during the day. It becomes pretty obvious when there is a huge surge in adjustments during prime time!

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

"Have you bothered to think for a minute or are you just a shill for Verizon?"

DSLR tactic #3: When your argument is baseless call the other party a shill.

Read my sig. I've been extremely clear that I do not, have not and will not work for any of the 1 million plus customer providers.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

said by battleop:

...

It was obviously just a sarcastic comment because what your wrote is so ridiculous...

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

That's a pretty poor attempt at back peddling.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

You really think I literally meant you worked for Verizon? Seriously dude?

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

Silly me I didn't see your body language when you wrote that.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Waaaaahhh..

Considering the context. It's an internet forum LOL.

fg8578
join:2009-04-26
San Antonio, TX

1 recommendation

fg8578 to battleop

Member

to battleop
said by battleop:

How did Netflix get data that tells them what package the end user chose? How do they know when the buffering is due to network congestion vs the customer is cheap and they subscribed to 3mb service over FIOS?

Exactly.

How does Netflix know, on a per customer basis, which maximum download speed the customer subscribes to? How does it know customer A pays for a faster broadband line than customer B? Wouldn't they need to know that for every customer of theirs on a given ISP to determine whether the customer's buffering is abnormal or not?

Inquiring minds wanna know . . .

SDL L3Tech
join:2011-06-07
Tyler, TX

SDL L3Tech to PlusOne

Member

to PlusOne
.

Well
@50.170.133.x

Well to PlusOne

Anon

to PlusOne
There was this workaround for this problems where you bypassed specific routes... Either VPN/proxy or connecting to a different IP address will bypass the normal route. This isn't conclusive, but there's a way to find out. Like all good gumshoes, we just need to do the legwork to investigate this. You don't even technically need Verizon's cooperation to collect that data on congested routes, BTW. It could be part of the Netflix player, or done by enough users using networking tools like Wireshark/Ethereal and traceroute to collect the routes. Sam Spade or similar tools would work?
ccjunk
join:2006-06-29
Austin, TX

ccjunk to karlmarx

Member

to karlmarx
Netflix has contracted with transit providers who can't deliver on their contract with Netflix. If those contracts, as you say, are for a total of 50Gbps, then it is a contract with the transit provider. Unfortunately for Netflix their transit providers can't deliver under their current interconnect agreements with other ISPs like VZ. How is that VZ's fault?

Those transit providers separately have contracts governing their settlement free interconnect agreements. You assume that they can unilaterally increase the capacity of those interconnects outside of the contracted agreement.

The problem is with Netflix and their transit provider. They bought a bad contract. They don't want to pay more to get the real capacity they need. So they are taking to the public to try to get them to fight for their contract weakness.

I don't think VZ or Comcast or other broadband ISP will have any trouble defending themselves in court.

If Netflix had a case then they would be ones suing.

What Netflix wants is a free ride - they want the cheapest (free if they could) capacity for getting their content to their end users. All other content providers pay for their capacity.

•••

SeanWhite
@71.68.209.x

SeanWhite to karlmarx

Anon

to karlmarx
Since when did Verizon turn into such greedy big babies? How embarrassing.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

Member

OK, I think I finally understand!

So Netflix has not paid Verizon like they did Comcast? Now Netflix is taking this opportunity to showcase the shakedown that is going on here?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

2 recommendations

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: OK, I think I finally understand!

Netflix did pay Verizon (the benefits just haven't shown up yet), and they're showcasing the shakedown.
raydanjr
join:2013-11-30
Preston, MD

raydanjr

Member

Somebody please write a story about how much of a joke Verizon has became

I hope they clear up this thing with Netflix soon, so they can get around to fixing the fact that their entire network is woefully substandard. I can only use 1/3 of the bandwidth I pay for during the late afternoon and evening hours regardless of whether I use Netflix or not.

After being told to stop complaining or they'd downgrade my service, I'd love to see them eat some humble pie.

kontos
xyzzy
join:2001-10-04
West Henrietta, NY

1 recommendation

kontos

Member

Sue my IPTV provider... Please!

I'd love to see some of the documents that the big eyeball ISPs have surrounding their peering negotiations and traffic levels become part of a public court case.

bigballer
@205.214.216.x

bigballer

Anon

Does network congestion even exist anymore?

We have "water usage," "electricity usage" each associated with peak times and other weather associated variables.

How the heck is internet (a beam of light through fiber optic cable) "congested"

••••

xsprintdude
@74.115.237.x

xsprintdude

Anon

If it isn't true...

Oh gee, there's a surprise. Maybe Verizon should PROVE it. Show some hard data of the throughput of a Netflix packet vs, say streams from Redbox.. Hmm.. sounds fair. Sad thing is, as a customer, I'm paying for a data pipe to the internet but now we have finger pointing of throttling because for some reason, 2 people, living next to each other, one with Bigred as an ISP and the other has Comcast and the Comcast customer doesn't have to put up with buffering on a slower non FIOS network but those with fiber are having "buffer" issues trying to watch the SAME movie. Just seems logical to me to accuse Verizon of meddling with the throughput of packets from anyone you don't like. They can do it with their phones, can doing to ANY packet header crossing it's network.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••

The Beer
I Love It When A Plan Comes Together
Premium Member
join:2001-07-24
Lincoln, NE

The Beer

Premium Member

99% of the time I never have an issue

I gotta say I don't EVER see problems on Mediacom getting Netflix to work. Once in a VERY BLUE MOON. Other night after Game Of Thrones I could not get HBO GO to work (not shocked) but Netflix is very reliable.
AVonGauss
Premium Member
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

AVonGauss

Premium Member

Legal...

Even if this never goes to trial, this could be a good thing for consumers if Verizon does actually file a civil action against NetFlix. One of the very first things that would happen is the discovery process where the public might actually get a glimpse of the real data.

My guess is NetFlix will quietly back down and either remove or change the message to be generic in nature since they seem unwilling at this time to release the actual data that might show where the real problem(s) lie. That's not an inference to it being NetFlix's fault, but without any supporting data, its just an unsupported opinion by NetFlix.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
masterbinky
join:2011-01-06
Carlsbad, NM

1 recommendation

masterbinky

Member

How creative can Verizon get?

I wonder if they will make arguments such as, 'we have bandwidth over on this port to spare, so it's really Neflix's fault for not directing traffic to us that way.'
Probitas
join:2014-06-05
Canada

Probitas

Member

Re: How creative can Verizon get?

Or Netflix can turn that around and say, YOUR customer wants to connect to us, why not make that port available to YOUR customer?

pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE

1 recommendation

pende_tim

Premium Member

Will Be Very Interesting To Watch

This will end up being more interesting to watch than the 20 year old "B" movies on Netflix. LOL
sandman_1
join:2011-04-23
11111

sandman_1

Member

Verizon firing back

Looks like Verizon has sent a cease and desist to Netflix.»mobile.pcmag.com/?origre ··· g-alerts
jjeffeory
jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN

1 edit

1 recommendation

jjeffeory

Member

Too funny

I have FiOS and was just watching something last night on Netflix.

This program showed the bitrate of the program in real time. Now, I have a 50M down connection, and at times my connection got down to the 300 kbps stream, where I had to pause it for a few seconds to get back to the 1080 stream. Very strange. Most programs don't allow me to see the rate.
Mystic95Z
join:2005-05-10
Orlando, FL

Mystic95Z

Member

The Fact Is

Last mile ISP's expect content providers to pay twice. Once to their ISP and again to the last mile ISP. Last mile ISP's would not have a business model without content providers....
AVonGauss
Premium Member
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

AVonGauss

Premium Member

Re: The Fact Is

No, the ISPs are trying to get the content providers to pay them directly instead of through a third party like L3 or Cogent. Regardless of how you feel about that, the one benefit to consumers is if a Verizon customer is having trouble with NetFlix then they only have to look to Verizon and NetFlix to fix the problem rather than one or more intermediate third parties.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: The Fact Is

said by AVonGauss:

No, the ISPs are trying to get the content providers to pay them directly instead of through a third party like L3 or Cogent.

Actually, the ISPs are trying to get rid of settlement-free peering. The typical transit providers don't like it and Netflix is choosing to bypass them to get to the last-mile ISPs instead of holding its providers' feet to the fire.
DigitalManny
join:2014-01-08
Glendale, CA

DigitalManny

Member

Here is a idea

Netflix should stop service with Verizon customers yeah and lets see who has the balls now to sue, how about this FCK Netflix for not adding movies or TV Shows because they gotta waste money on this crappy ISPs, FCK Verizon and Comcast they think we do not know they got people from FCC working for them and FCK those who congest bandwidth downloading illegally.

I find it funny when Microsoft was playing Monopoly the Government got their panties wet but when cable companies do it it is okay because the FCC gets paid, what a great service why the hell do we need ISPs anymore might as well have my own servers.
AVonGauss
Premium Member
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

AVonGauss

Premium Member

Re: Here is a idea

While I understand the premise, you're suggesting NetFlix should commit the very net neutrality violation that often ISPs are accused of doing.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to DigitalManny

Premium Member

to DigitalManny
said by DigitalManny:

Netflix should stop service with Verizon customers

Actually, if Level 3, Cogent, and the like, feel so strongly that Verizon and Comcast are so much in the wrong, they should de-peer them. If we really want to get to the root of the issue and get things fixed and if everyone is so sure that Verizon and Comcast are wrong, what better way to force the issue?
Probitas
join:2014-06-05
Canada

1 recommendation

Probitas

Member

Please go to court.

I will donate 100$ of my own money if that makes this happen, force it into court, then giving Netflix leverage to open this debate up. This is a scare tactic, and nothing more. None of the ISPs or the FCC want this in the courts, it will lead to regulation and they know it.

••••••••••

JimThePCGuy
Formerly known as schja01.
MVM
join:2000-04-27
Morton Grove, IL

JimThePCGuy

MVM

Clearwire streams Netflix better than Vz

Clearwire (the slowest ISP in NA) has Netflix OpenConnect appliances and they stream Netflix just fine at my location.
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow

Premium Member

Be careful what you wish for

Everyone that is using the line the ISPs are just delivering what the end customer requested and the ISP is double dipping could find if NetFlix wins that those customers bring on more caps and maybe even time of day billing. My guess is if Netflix pays your Netflix bill may go up a dollar. If the ISPs goes to usage billing and worse time of day billing you will pay a lot more then a dollar.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

1 recommendation

Thaler

Premium Member

Re: Be careful what you wish for

Eh, knowing ISPs they'd demand more money from content providers AND also demand usage billing as well.

ieolus
Support The Clecs
join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT

ieolus to WhatNow

Member

to WhatNow
Ha! Verizon can't even get flat rate billing working, let alone time of day or usage based billing.
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