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Comments on news posted 2014-07-17 17:56:58: While ISPs like Comcast, Verizon and AT&T claim that the latest round of peering and interconnection fights (and poor Netflix performance) are just peering business as usual, Netflix and transit operators continue to accuse ISPs of anti-competitive s.. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · next


karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Chicago, IL

1 recommendation

Blame the customers

If the damn greedy customers would just STOP subscribing to netflix, this wouldn't be a problem. Sure they are paying for INTERNET access, but watching TV isn't really internet access, it's streaming video. Netflix should just roll over and pay however much verizon want's to fix the problem, or just cancel the subscriptions of anyone who uses verizon. That's the only real long term fix. If people would just realize, it's a series of tubes, and video is like trying to fit a dump truck down those tubes. Sometimes, it takes the internets a long time to send me an e-mail because all those greedy customers are filling up the trucks. Verizon shouldn't have to do anything, it's those pesky customers that are causing the problem.
--
The best way to defeat religion it to ignore it. Look at Ra/Thor/Zeus, they all thought they were forever.


SlowFITL

join:2012-02-01
Mobile, AL
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast
said by karlmarx:

If the damn greedy customers would just STOP subscribing to netflix, this wouldn't be a problem. Sure they are paying for INTERNET access, but watching TV isn't really internet access, it's streaming video. Netflix should just roll over and pay however much verizon want's to fix the problem, or just cancel the subscriptions of anyone who uses verizon. That's the only real long term fix. If people would just realize, it's a series of tubes, and video is like trying to fit a dump truck down those tubes. Sometimes, it takes the internets a long time to send me an e-mail because all those greedy customers are filling up the trucks. Verizon shouldn't have to do anything, it's those pesky customers that are causing the problem.

Almost failed to detect the sarcasm for a minute.


Selenia
Gentoo Convert
Premium
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR
kudos:2
reply to karlmarx
You must work for Verizon. Then what is the higher speed tiers people PAY for really for? Sending e-mails 0.5 seconds faster for a fortune more per month? In that case I would take the 2 megabit tier and deny greedy Verizon and company the extra revenue for a higher tier of service that would be of no meaningful value.


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA

1 recommendation

reply to karlmarx
We all know this is going on, glad these companies are publicly putting the heat on these guys to continue to bring attention to this...
--
.:|:. aztec being aztec...™


Selenia
Gentoo Convert
Premium
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR
kudos:2
reply to SlowFITL
I did fail :S

78036364

join:2014-05-06
USA

1 recommendation

Level 3 full of it.

Level 3 is mad they are being asked to pay a fee they don't want to pay. Is willing however to buy thousands of port cards that cost several thousand each.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
reply to aztecnology

Re: Blame the customers

I have a couple of Twinax sitting around. Shall I send them to Verizon...


Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
Reviews:
·PlusNet
reply to 78036364

Re: Level 3 full of it.

said by 78036364:

Level 3 is mad they are being asked to pay a fee they don't want to pay. Is willing however to buy thousands of port cards that cost several thousand each.

Level 3 are a tier 1. As far as I know they don't pay lower tier networks for the privilege of connecting to them, they are supplying connectivity to non-peered networks to those lower tier networks.


Selenia
Gentoo Convert
Premium
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR
kudos:2

1 edit

12 recommendations

reply to 78036364
Pay a fee for traffic through Verizon that Verizon's paying customers request? Netflix pays Level 3 to deliver the bits and Level 3 gives Netflix enough capacity. But people pay Verizon to deliver the requested content and Verizon fails to give enough capacity? Why should Level 3 pay for capacity that customers pay Verizon to deliver? Why should transit providers be a charity for big rich Verizon? Sheesh do the shills come out when you mention the words Comcast, Verizon, peering, throttling, or congestion


SoulForge

@141.116.212.x

2 recommendations

reply to 78036364
said by 78036364:

Level 3 is mad they are being asked to pay a fee they don't want to pay. Is willing however to buy thousands of port cards that cost several thousand each.

.......what? Level 3 isn't being asked to pay. Netflix is being asked by Verizon to pay. Plugging in those unused ports on verizon's end to level 3 shown in the diagram would fix the problem in no time at all.


SkOrPn7

join:2006-02-15
Tijeras, NM
reply to aztecnology

Re: Blame the "stupid" customers!

Anyone with any real intelligence should be able to see what's going on, however just like the Governments of the world, the corporation's such as Verizon rely on the incompetent brain dead to believe their story and happily pay the bills while not getting the product which is already paid for on two fronts. I absolutely hate government and corporations who use the combined power of stupid people (or should I say stupid sheep) to push their own agenda.

So, yeah let me rephrase the title of this post, "Blame the stupid customers" for not demanding that the truth come out.


wdoa

join:2001-10-16
Spencer, MA

1 recommendation

Strongly suspect the problem is Verizon

I'm on Verizon DSL, when I use my connection which shows speeds of 14/1 on all speed tests with very low latency (32 ms) with youtube or Netflix I see constant buffering with youtube and only get standard def on netflix. However, when I fire up my trusty Private Internet Access VPN and aim it their East Coast node my youtube buffering problems disappear and my Netflix connection goes to HD. Verizon like most corporations is in business to give the least possible service for the highest price.

OmagicQ
Posting in a thread near you

join:2003-10-23
Bakersfield, CA
kudos:1

If thats all it takes to fix it...

Somebody sneak in there with a few 2ft cat6 cables already.
--
...Who, What, When, Where, How... Why? Why Not?


dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4

1 recommendation

Throttling flash

found this

"Do you have LOADING ISSUES? Is VERIZON your INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER? #TheDirtFarmer team has found a connection among the two and it is our firm belief that (some) Verizon customers (specifically those in Maryland, Virginia and Pennsylvan...ia) are unable to load their farms because of it. Due to Verizon's recent war of words with Netflix over streaming speeds and fees and one company blaming the other prompting an FCC investigation, it is our belief that in some regions, Verizon is throttling (limiting) streaming/flash speeds to a point where players are unable to load their farms. " this is about farmville but the listed fixes say to not use VZ dns.
using another dns might fix netflix issues too. 4.2.2.1, 4.2.2.2 are good fast free servers
-
looks like VZ wants a sweet deal like comcast got.
--
Despises any post with strings.

WhatNow
Premium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

1 recommendation

reply to Selenia

Re: Level 3 full of it.

You get what you pay for.


Selenia
Gentoo Convert
Premium
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR
kudos:2

9 recommendations

Which never seems to be what a company claims you get, especially if that company is Verizon. Buy 30 megabits, get 30 only on sites they approve of? Bullshit! They get their fees from customers then pout and not deliver the agreed upon product when they can't double dip the content or transit providers. Essentially choosing winners and losers according to how much their non customer content providers pay for the mafia insurance...ummm I mean direct peering.

Verizon: Buy our transit insurance.
Content: Why do I need it? The ISP I pay provides transit and your customers pay you for last mile.
Verizon: Because if you don't, something very bad might happen to your bits if you know what I mean.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

7 recommendations

Extended Moderation...

It appears my reply on the Level 3 blog is going through extended moderation time, even though other replies and replies from the author have been posted. For anyone that cares, here it is...

--

This back and forth is getting really tiresome, neither this post nor the ones from Verizon are giving anywhere close to a complete picture of how the business relationship has been conducted in the past and present. Offering to pay for Verizon to upgrade their ports is like one of your customers offering to pay for the ports / cross connects to your network without any ongoing usage costs. No, its not an exact comparison, but it’s close enough for this grand-staging effort being conducted by all three levels (content producer, transit, residential ISP).

As to the “suggestions” that this is an intentional effort by Verizon to thwart NetFlix, the simple questions can be asked… Why are you selling a service (transit) to NetFlix that you know very well in advance that you cannot fully fulfill? If NetFlix is being targeted by Verizon (or Comcast, AT&T) unfairly, why have they and you elected not to pursue any legal remedies to date but rather instead wage a public “public relations” campaign?

The latest tactic appears to ask the US government to intervene, which may or may not be a bad thing, but remember most consumers only realize their NetFlix experience sucks and doesn’t understand or care about peering in any shape or fashion. Regulation may come, but the government is not known for subtle or light gestures, its quite possible all parties involved will find themselves in a much worse position afterwards. Let’s also not forget, the regulation may not stop at residential ISPs, interconnections are far more important than any single ISP.

To summarize: I believe all of the parties involved are simply trying to look out for their own interests and profits, rather than any genuine concern about how the Internet works. None of the parties to date have released any meaningful data publicly to support any of their claims, but rather have released highly summarized data that can not be analyzed or verified by any uninvolved party.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to SoulForge

Re: Level 3 full of it.

Huh? If NetFlix is sending traffic through Level 3 to Verizon, Verizon would be looking to Level 3 to pay not NetFlix. If/When NetFlix is directly connected to Verizon, then NetFlix would pay Verizon and not (eventually) Level 3 for data going to Verizon customers.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to AVonGauss

Re: Extended Moderation...

said by AVonGauss:

As to the "suggestions" that this is an intentional effort by Verizon to thwart NetFlix, the simple questions can be asked… Why are you selling a service (transit) to NetFlix that you know very well in advance that you cannot fully fulfill?

That is exactly the question I want Verizon to answer!

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to Selenia

Re: Level 3 full of it.

Verizon is not trying to double dip, they're trying to eliminate the middle layer (transit providers - L3, Cogent, etc).


Flyonthewall

@206.248.154.x

Emminent Domain

Government steps in, determines internet access and connectivity is necessary for the continued growth and prosperity of the US, gets rid of all middle men and properly connects the completely insane # of providers to one GIANT network, and says there you go, no more peering issues. And instead of competition you have one provider run by the US government, who is tired of watching business get in the way of business. All fixed now.


Selenia
Gentoo Convert
Premium
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to AVonGauss

Re: Level 3 full of it.

A layer that normally someone else gets paid while VZ customers pay for them to do their job as last mile layer that they refuse to do after being paid once to do it unless they get paid twice. Thank you for backing up my point, sir!


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

reply to OmagicQ

Re: If thats all it takes to fix it...

said by OmagicQ:

...Somebody sneak in there with a few 2ft cat6 cables already.

strangely enough, plugging CAT6 into a fiber port is harder than it seems (square peg-round hole) and rarely improves throughput.

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

I love the sarcasm

About Verizon not being able to afford stuff.

This is good that such a big, well respected company has come out in support of getting the truth about Verizon out there.

AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

reply to Selenia

Re: Level 3 full of it.

No, not even close... You do realize this was affecting more than just NetFlix traffic, right?


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to Selenia

Re: Blame the customers

yea, that commentitis is a bit of a pain at times.

but here's the sad part, the guys that run the show actually think like that.

OmagicQ
Posting in a thread near you

join:2003-10-23
Bakersfield, CA
kudos:1
reply to tshirt

Re: If thats all it takes to fix it...

LOL. My bad.. well somebody should still get in there with the proper cables and fix it.
--
...Who, What, When, Where, How... Why? Why Not?

sss111
Premium
join:2003-09-02
Granby, Qc
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Why can't Netflix simply diversify it's peering ?

I imagine that Netflix can easily saturate one or two tier1 links as described above. IPSs reroutes "normal" traffic somewhere else and don't care much about what happens for that particular link.

I understand that Netflix would greatly prefer IPSs to play their game and install their caching server everywhere.

But couldn't Netflix make the effort to over diversify their peering facing these reluctant ISPs ? And to smooth things out, develop a load balancing scheme in function of the perceived congestion between their servers and clients (real time analysis)?

The solution I outlined might be the business equivalent of letting yourself distracted by bully tactics. Incumbents are practically monopoles after all.

Direct peering makes much more sense of course unless the arrangement offered are truly unfair to content providers.

Are other tier1 providers scared of doing business with Netflix in the current situation(i.e. at a fair price)?

Otherwise over peering seems obvious (to me lol, am not a Network Engineer though!)

The other side of the coin could be that by playing the victim, Netflix hopes to finally push that ultimate edge in their market: their OWN cache servers everywhere, instead of simply fair direct peering. Who will be able compete with that.

The more I think about it, the more I sense that no one, including tier1 providers want to tell "the whole truth". And this is the reason this greek tragedy has lasted for so long without catharsis.

I would usually side with the fact that any fight against the ISP oligopoly is a good fight. But what if in this case it's mostly going to help create monopoly with a very strong technical edge. Maybe we should expect better answers from the parties involved rather than taking side this easily. Me guilty first until the over peering solution came to me.

en103

join:2011-05-02
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to Ignite

Re: Level 3 full of it.

Don't take this the wrong way - this is a control and cost issue between Verizon, carriers like L3 and Netflix (could be really anybody).

'If' Verizon were to add more port cards (they're relatively cheap), they'd have to deal with the traffic - whether or not they want it (net neutrality anyone). If L3 is like the old days of ISP, they'll have to pay port charges + increased traffic charges to L3 for a service that they 'really' don't want on their network. As a result, they cap the throughput by not adding 'more' capacity than say any other carrier would have. This basically has Verizon sort of saying we're net neutral - as we treat all traffic the same. Facebook or Netflix, and pushing carriers/source to pay for dedicated extra capacity, which will also offset any perceived / competitive harm that it may do to FiOS.


aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA

1 recommendation

reply to Flyonthewall

Re: Emminent Domain

said by Flyonthewall :

Government steps in, determines internet access and connectivity is necessary for the continued growth and prosperity of the US, gets rid of all middle men and properly connects the completely insane # of providers to one GIANT network, and says there you go, no more peering issues. And instead of competition you have one provider run by the US government, who is tired of watching business get in the way of business. All fixed now.

Wait, are you talking about that GIANT single network that we had before divestiture...?
--
.:|:. aztec being aztec...™